The jargon of formal logic studies is not what happens on TOL. We use the definitions of lay people. Sometimes we may interject a concept from logic theory, but we do not pretend we have been using it all along. Well, except you.
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The Flood is proof of the Creation
- Thread starter Idolater
- Start date
Fun fact: statements can vary in the degree to which they contradict each other. Look at five accounts of a gunman entering a classroom. The students statements might not align, there will be some consistencies. The verbiage will not pair up in neat binaries.
The man had two weapons.
The boy had a gun and a rifle and a knife.
Commonality: The male had at least two weapons.
There is a contradiction in the number of weapons and potentially the age of the male.
The man had two weapons.
The boy had a gun and a rifle and a knife.
Commonality: The male had at least two weapons.
There is a contradiction in the number of weapons and potentially the age of the male.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Which one are you
7djengo7
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What (if anything) do you mean by that?
When you're not using language to affirm false propositions, you're using language in a cognitively meaningless way; far be it from me to assume that you must be speaking meaningfully, just because you say stuff. And so long as you're speaking meaninglessly, you're not engaging in definition.
Whom do you call "lay people"? I don't call anyone "lay people".
Most of the time you interject strings of words you have cobbled together without thinking rationally about what you are doing.
What (if anything) do you mean by "concept"? What would it be to "interject a concept" into something? And into what would/could whatever it is you'd call a "concept" be interjected?
Wait, what are you saying I pretend to be using?
7djengo7
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What do you mean by "contradict each other," Professor Poser? Since you're dumb enough to tell us that a false proposition can contradict a false proposition, please tell us exactly what it would be for the false proposition, X, to contradict the false proposition, Y.
Perhaps you're also dumb enough to tell us that a true proposition can contradict a true proposition?
The contradictory of the proposition, 'The man had two weapons,' is the proposition, 'The man did not have two weapons'. Two contradictories, one false, the other true, paired up in a neat binary.
The contradictory of 'The boy had a gun and a rifle and a knife' is 'The boy did not have a gun and a rifle and a knife.' Two contradictories, one false, the other true, paired up in a neat binary.
The contradictory of 'The male had at least two weapons' is 'The male did not have at least two weapons' ('The male had less than two weapons'). Two contradictories, one false, the other true, paired up in a neat binary.
What (if anything) do you mean by this?
No, making the Bible mean nothing doesn't rehabilitate it. It utterly destroys any meaning it might have.
Straw man.
Correct.
I don't have any initial disagreements with this statement.
What, if anything, do you mean by "religion"? This is a Christian board. By "religion," do you mean Christianity? Or do you mean something like Islam? Buddhism? Hinduism? some other religion? Because I can tell you, one of those is not like the others.
Duh.
Does that include Satanism? Jainism? Taoism?
If that were the case, you'd think more people would be willing to read it. But the reality is that most people have an irrational hatred for the Bible, yet tolerate or even promote other religions and their texts. I wonder why...
The Bible doesn't contradict actual science.
Scientists may make claims that contradict the Bible, but that's because scientists are fallible men.
"Let God be true, and every man a liar."
No, they're not.
There is plenty of evidence for a global flood. Literally all you have to do is open your eyes to see it.
It's not.
What's actually staggering is that you've managed to convince yourself of this nonsense.
You must think God incapable of writing a long-lasting book.
Rather, He did, in fact, give sight to literally blind people.
Correct.
~5300 years, not 3500.
God destroyed humanity (except 8 humans) because of how wicked they became. This is evidence that He is a just God.
Jesus, God the Son, healed people because, in addition to God being just, He is also merciful, and capable of bringing about His will.
Supra.
We are all encouraged to get on the Ark, that is, to find the inner spiritual truth within Bible stories. The OT is not Christian Scripture, it belongs to Judaism, though it does contain a great deal of valuable insight for Christians. Jesus said that God is spirit and we must worship in spirit, the worshipping of so called literal truths has done nothing but cause endless division and rendered religion a plaything for the ignorant.
There are Christians divided from other Christians because some see evolution as a Creative force, others see Creation and the stories of Genesis, such as the Flood of Noah as literal. Such literal worship, or belief also divides science from religion.
A loving God drowning a planet full of animals and humans makes no sense. This would suggest that God had both failed as a Creator and had a nature that was fickle and vengeful.
Imagine those poor little platypus and Kangaroos, koalas and emu having to swim and walk all the way to Israel and then back home from the mountains of Turkey through a devastated landscape all the way back to Australia. And imagine if one of the thousands of predators on board the Ark had eaten a living creature when they got off the Ark. That would have been the extinction of an entire species every time they ate.
Creationists are always throwing back a need for evidence, which of cause they are impervious to, otherwise they would not be confounded like they are. I would like to see a Creationist with the courage of their conviction, rather than playing the man, detail, with evidence, just how the Flood of Noah could possibly be literal and describe how a planet might bounce back after such a flood as if nothing happened.
There are Christians divided from other Christians because some see evolution as a Creative force, others see Creation and the stories of Genesis, such as the Flood of Noah as literal. Such literal worship, or belief also divides science from religion.
A loving God drowning a planet full of animals and humans makes no sense. This would suggest that God had both failed as a Creator and had a nature that was fickle and vengeful.
Imagine those poor little platypus and Kangaroos, koalas and emu having to swim and walk all the way to Israel and then back home from the mountains of Turkey through a devastated landscape all the way back to Australia. And imagine if one of the thousands of predators on board the Ark had eaten a living creature when they got off the Ark. That would have been the extinction of an entire species every time they ate.
Creationists are always throwing back a need for evidence, which of cause they are impervious to, otherwise they would not be confounded like they are. I would like to see a Creationist with the courage of their conviction, rather than playing the man, detail, with evidence, just how the Flood of Noah could possibly be literal and describe how a planet might bounce back after such a flood as if nothing happened.
Sounds like more platitudes.
Or we could go with how the Bible describes Him.
Sounds like you've spent exactly no time investigating what actually happened.
Because the universe will implode if a species goes extinct.
For a start, the world and the solar system were radically altered by the flood.
How about you figure out what has been proposed rather than exposing your ignorance.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
You all are so dumb. You're 2000 years too late, Peter already said that the ark today is the Church (Christian faith), and while you all are just a man, Peter's interpretation is Apostolic.
Vs. all of the Apostles saying otherwise, who included it in the Christian canon.
How do you all explain the absence of endless division during the 15 centuries before the Reformation?
Catholics for one don't divide over this. We're free to interpret Genesis literally or figuratively or metaphorically or allegorically or whatever, we have complete freedom to investigate and research and test and challenge.
You all really don't understand or grasp or appreciate or recognize Catholicism.
No it would not. And besides, many of them probably all got cooked from released supercritical super-mineral-saturated water before they all had a chance to drown anyway.
Continents are still moving pretty swiftly from the momentum of the Flood's fountains of the great deep breaking open suddenly.
If there's anything this planet seems to do quite well, and fast, it's bounce back from catastrophe.
Also why don't you believe modern scientists who instead of saying there was one gigantic global Flood and extinction event that happened all at once, like the Bible does, say that there were many somewhat smaller but also gigantic floods and extinctions littered throughout the Earth's history?
You all are idiots. Let's see if you all can bounce back from the catastrophe of your apparent incorrigible stupidity like the Earth has done from the Flood.
Right Divider
Body part
Non-Biblical nonsense.
Neither is much of the "NT", if you look at it that way.
2Tim 3:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:16) All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (3:17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Nobody should "worship truth"; we should worship God.
Dividing truth from error is critical to worshiping God.
Evolution (the non-Biblical/anti-Biblical kind) is non-sense. The Flood of Noah is literal history.
Again the fallacious argument (appeal to the stone). Make a real argument instead.
No, it does not. You continue to compound your error.
Your confusion is immense.
This book clearly explains it: https://hpt.rsr.org/onlinebook/HydroplateOverview2.html
P.S. Nobody is claiming that the "planet bounced back after the flood as if nothing happened". That is a STRAW-MAN of your own creation.
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Frozen. Not cooked. The venting water was below freezing temperature. But it wouldn't have been temperature extremes that took many lives.
If you lived anywhere near the vent, you likely died of the atmospheric shockwave, including by it launching you skyward. Farther away, you died in the first tsunami.
When enough water goes through a massdive depressuriztion it will actuall freeze everything around it as the pressured rop creates a massive temperature drop. That's how snow is manufactured for ski areas when there is very little or no snow fall.
No, we're not.
New-age nonsense.
Take scripture at its word, THEN you can go deeper.
RD addressed this sufficiently already.
Yes.
That's called idolatry.
Says the one saying the Bible shouldn't be taken literally...
And the former are wrong in their beliefs.
No one is worshipping "literal-ness."
Says the one who wants everything to be allegorical and not able to be studied.
Sure it does.
No, it wouldn't.
Nope. But you won't be able to understand why not until you start taking the Bible literally.
Mocking scripture based on nothing but conjecture is foolishness, sir.
Says the one who hasn't presented a lick of evidence so far.
False.
The only confounded one here is you, and Skeeter.
Says the one who has yet to respond directly to a single post of mine where I thoroughly dismantle what you say.
RD linked you to an excellent resource. I recommend you read it.
Or, if you don't have time to read such a book, you can always watch this YouTube Playlist, in which Bryan Nickel explains very clearly, in an easy to understand way, not just WHAT happened, but why it happened.
It didn't. We're still seeing the effects of the flood today.
Supra.
7djengo7
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Yup. That would be the water jetting into the sky. The stuff that doesn't depressurize rapidly by necessity would not be part of the main fountains and would build up at somewhat normal temperatures at the surface.
"Sounds like you've spent exactly no time investigating what actually happened."
I am ready to listen to exactly what happened. Here is your chance to correct my errant understanding of the Flood epic and I will be grateful to read your reply.
Look, I'm just taking it in as I see it based on the advantages we have living in this scientific age.blueboy, we all encourage you to get out of the Mystery Machine.
Firstly the OT is not Christian Scripture, but Christians spend 90% of their time messing about in either the OT or Revelation, because that's where all the good stuff is. The end of the world, the flood, the talking snake, dragons and God smiting all those nasty humans. The stuff in the NT where Jesus speaks of love and charity, an equal distribution of food and resources, well, let's get back to the end of the world and the smiting.
Secondly, Genesis was not written for a Creationist in 2022. Genesis was written for late Bronze Age peasants, labourers and all those illiterate and uneducated peoples suffering the drudgery of short, difficult lives. Today we have science and a general global education system so that we might revisit the wondrous writings of the Bible and allow them to reveal the deeper truths that this age gifts us.
Thirdly, as every vibrating atom is part of Creation and natural order is the set of laws God has commanded physical reality to behave via, then anything in the Bible that contradicts natural order and science, (which is also a great and mighty gift from God, so that we might understand a fragment of His wondrous work), must then be superstition and dogma. It takes no stretch of understanding to realise the utter impossibility of a global flood as described in Genesis. On so many levels to accept this story in 2022 as literal is a crime against logic, science, common sense and Christianity itself.
So no Mystery Machine for me, just ordinary, garden variety common sense gleaned from a great deal of reading the works of others. Religion is always destroyed from within, even the might and power of Rome could not touch the Teachings of Christ and His reality, yet literalism in 2022 has rendered certain factions of Christianity religious backwaters that still conform to Bronze Age beliefs in an age of science.
It's a bit like those folk who reenact the Civil War and have battles dressed as knights.