The Personal Side of the Homosexual Debate

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Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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how exactly are you privy to what is said in a therapy session?
Did it seriously not occur to you that he's a therapist?

most don't realize it because it isn't true
Apparently TracerBullet is a queer. How else would he know?

and discrimination is moral how exactly?
Depends on the object of discrimination. would you call me immoral for discriminating against a murderer or a pedophile?

You're right. It says nothing about eating "after church." The Bible only says that eating shellfsh period is "an abomination."
Does it?

What we calll "homosexuality" was all about male aggression. Not love. The close and loving relationship of David and Jonathan in the Old Testament probably comes as close to a modern "gay" loving relationship as anything else in Scripture but it is not described in any specific way, other than to say they were both close and loved each other.
You're an idiot.
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
First off, let me note that there are many definitions of love - and people freely switch between them. In debates such as these, defenders of homosexuality use "love" in place of "lust" - it sounds nicer and holds more of a rhetorical punch.

When I use the term, however, I'm using it more from a Christian perspective - agape. This kind of love is a choice - its the decision to make the well-being of others and your relationship to them something you value and act upon.

Now, as for lust, in my own life I have certainly found that my internal choices regarding women affect my attraction to them. I find many women attractive - but that doesn't equate to me lusting after them. If I decide that I don't want to pursue someone for whatever reason - such as they are going out with one of my friends - then that's that, I won't think of them that way. On the other hand, if I decide I want to pursue them, then my thoughts turn to them. So my conscious decisions most certainly play a big role in this matter.

Then you use self control, I see, and have done the same, yet to do feel the attraction, yet keep it in check?

Now, today, I would take a religious position on homos, but if I were really honest, I would say something not based on being a good Christian.

Although this is true, I am far more moved by the Spirit, because I do not hate people, even when I think they are sinful.

In an old fashion way to say it, the very idea, " kill a queer for Christ' is also repulsive to me.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
First off, let me note that there are many definitions of love - and people freely switch between them. In debates such as these, defenders of homosexuality use "love" in place of "lust" - it sounds nicer and holds more of a rhetorical punch.

So it helps to clarify, because I've never known anyone make a conscious decision to fall in love, it just happens. I wasn't using love in place of lust at all as I know there's a complete difference between the two on any level.

When I use the term, however, I'm using it more from a Christian perspective - agape. This kind of love is a choice - its the decision to make the well-being of others and your relationship to them something you value and act upon.

Right, in much the same as someone may choose to be altruistic or selfish.

Now, as for lust, in my own life I have certainly found that my internal choices regarding women affect my attraction to them. I find many women attractive - but that doesn't equate to me lusting after them. If I decide that I don't want to pursue someone for whatever reason - such as they are going out with one of my friends - then that's that, I won't think of them that way. On the other hand, if I decide I want to pursue them, then my thoughts turn to them. So my conscious decisions most certainly play a big role in this matter.

Fair enough, but your attraction to someone is beyond your control right? How you act on it is something else entirely. I wouldn't even say finding a woman alluring necessarily equates to lust anyway depending.

Just because there are somethings you don't have control over (being born a man/woman, how old you are, etc) doesn't therefore serve as an argument that one doesn't have any control over their sexual orientation. Analogies don't serve as arguments - despite the fact that people continually try to use them as such.

Well, I don't have any control over my heterosexuality so why would I presume that anyone else has actual control over theirs? If analogies don't serve as arguments then that's pretty much all you've come up with in order to argue how a heterosexual person may somehow - through hedonism/orgies and the like - end up becoming bi or homosexual so it cuts both ways.

See above - from personal experience I heartily disagree on this point.

I'm talking about acting on lust - not attraction, there's a difference.
 

TracerBullet

New member
There's no solid evidence that homosexuality is genetic. Current studies can be interpreted any number of ways. Twins and familial studies can just as easily be interpreted to be a matter of nurture.
you originally said:
"There's no evidence in favor of the idea that homosexuality is genetic"

and this remains wrong. there is a large body of evidence saying exactly that. there are plenty of attempts to dismiss evidence that sexual orientation is inborn but none of these attempts is coming form geneticists.

Love is a choice just as what kind of music you want to listen to. We have less direct control over lust I agree, but not no control. I wouldn't suggest that a homosexual could necessarily become a heterosexual, but they can choose to leave homosexuality behind.
"leave homosexuality behind" what a stupid statement. People are who they are.

we may choose the person we fall in love with but we don't get to choose the gender of who we fall in love with it just happens.


As discussed before, it is self-evident why we would naturally be heterosexual and why no homosexual gene would arise and persist across generations in nature. Evolution relies upon procreation - a homosexual gene would necessarily die off as soon as it evolved.
you need to do some remedial reading on evolution and genetics.

not every member of a species procreates, very few male gorillas, elephants or wolves have the opportunity to have offspring. This is part of their species survival mechanisms. a common feature of these animals and with humans is their reliance on a social structure for survival.

the genes that seem to be responsible for homosexuality are apparently tied to genes for female fertility. Women with these genes tend to have more offspring leading to the distribution of those genes, these women also are more likely to give birth to gay males. In fact the greatest predictor of male homosexuality is the number of older biological brothers one has. (this holds true no matter if they are raised with biological families or adopted out). It is pretty easy to extrapolate how this would benefit humans, having non-reproducing members acts as a safety net for orphaned children and as a means of fostering out children if a mother is having to many to care for.

Furthermore, there are a great number of sexual variations out there beyond just straight and gay. There are bi-sexuals, pedophiles, some people are attracted to beastiality, etc. Are you gonna suggest each of these is its own gene?
Pedophiles are not equivalent of homosexuals.

further the evidence shows that pedophilia is the result of actual brain damage.
Peoppl, B.T. et al Association between brain structure and phenotypic characteristics in pedophilia 2013 j of pych research
Garcie J. A . Etiology of pedophilia from a neurodevelopmental perspective: markers and brain alterations 2009 Revista de Psiquiatría y Salud Mental (English Edition)
Schiffer, B. et al Structural brain abnormalities in the frontostriatal system and cerebellum in pedophilia 2007 j. of psych research



False - plenty of people are ready to say that homosexuality is a matter of genetics because they want to defend it as something beyond their control - a product of nature alone.
All evidence says that sexual orientation is the result of genetics, epigenetics and the prenatal environment

Some don't procreate for good reasons, true. But a gene that prevents one from procreating - such as a from a lack of attraction to the opposite sex - is most certainly a defect.

see above
 

resurrected

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Have you ever chosen to fall in love with someone?


:think:


Hannibal Lecter: First principles, Clarice. Simplicity. Read Marcus Aurelius. Of each particular thing ask: what is it in itself? What is its nature? What does he do, this man you seek?
Clarice Starling: He kills women...
Hannibal Lecter: No. That is incidental. What is the first and principal thing he does? What needs does he serve by killing?
Clarice Starling: Anger, um, social acceptance, and, huh, sexual frustrations, sir...
Hannibal Lecter: No! He covets. That is his nature. And how do we begin to covet, Clarice? Do we seek out things to covet? Make an effort to answer now.
Clarice Starling: No. We just...
Hannibal Lecter: No. We begin by coveting what we see every day. Don't you feel eyes moving over your body, Clarice? And don't your eyes seek out the things you want?
 

TracerBullet

New member
seen those
there are sure a lot of them




You seem to say no to genetics, then yes, and there really is no 'epigentics' there are phenotypes, relative to genotypes, and prenatal environment has been thought to be a factor.

did you read my post?

yes sexual orientation has a genetic factor. and yes it has a epigenetic factor and yes it has a prenatal environment factor.

epigentics
 

resurrected

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"The main point I wanted to make is there are other reasons for disliking nerds; many dislike nerdsexuals for reasons other than religion. Many do not like nerds for 'personal' reasons."



:freak:




it wasn't all that much fun :idunno:
 

TracerBullet

New member
It was once claimed by a famous Irishman that people like you use statistics like a drunk uses a light pole, for support, rather than enlightenment.

Look up poppers. Alkyl Nitrates.
yeah they aren't pills

Over 50 percent of males that are homos have never had sex without using muscle relaxers.
evidence?


I know because I have logged over 30,000 clinical hours treating addicts, criminals, and the sexually broken.

popperstogo.com play particular attention to the products called "RAM", "HARD WARE", and "Locker Room". You are a naive idiot.

“I am reminded of a colleague who reiterated "all my homosexual patients are quite sick" - to which I finally replied "so are all my heterosexual patients"” Earnest van der Haag
 

TracerBullet

New member
First off, let me note that there are many definitions of love - and people freely switch between them. In debates such as these, defenders of homosexuality use "love" in place of "lust" - it sounds nicer and holds more of a rhetorical punch.

When I use the term, however, I'm using it more from a Christian perspective - agape. This kind of love is a choice - its the decision to make the well-being of others and your relationship to them something you value and act upon.

Now, as for lust, in my own life I have certainly found that my internal choices regarding women affect my attraction to them. I find many women attractive - but that doesn't equate to me lusting after them. If I decide that I don't want to pursue someone for whatever reason - such as they are going out with one of my friends - then that's that, I won't think of them that way. On the other hand, if I decide I want to pursue them, then my thoughts turn to them. So my conscious decisions most certainly play a big role in this matter.
so gays are incapable of "real" love and pair up only to satisfy their lusts.

Racists are fond of saying the same thing about blacks, that they cannot and do not engage in love but rather just express their animalistic sexuality.



Just because there are somethings you don't have control over (being born a man/woman, how old you are, etc) doesn't therefore serve as an argument that one doesn't have any control over their sexual orientation. Analogies don't serve as arguments - despite the fact that people continually try to use them as such.
like your attempt to use age and gender as an analogy for orientation
 

TracerBullet

New member
"The main point I wanted to make is there are other reasons for disliking nerds; many dislike nerdsexuals for reasons other than religion. Many do not like nerds for 'personal' reasons."

I'm sure there are a lot of people who dislike you for personal reasons. but, again, we aren't here to discuss your personal life
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
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Cherry-pickiing a context is human.
So is reading the words to find out what was actually said. You could try the rational and sensible option available to humans as well. :thumb:

A failure to find out what a biblical verse meant to the original authors can leave one with simplistic and baffling interpretations.
And the best way to solve that would be to read the passages involved. :thumb:

The Bible only says that eating shellfsh period is "an abomination."
It says more than that. :up:

What we calll "homosexuality" was all about male aggression.
Nope.

It was about people sleeping with others of their own gender as they would with the opposite gender. It was clearly outlined what was forbidden. You should try reading what the bible says instead of making things up. :up:
 

csuguy

Well-known member
so gays are incapable of "real" love and pair up only to satisfy their lusts.

Racists are fond of saying the same thing about blacks, that they cannot and do not engage in love but rather just express their animalistic sexuality.

I did not say that - don't put words in my mouth. Men can love other men in the sense I described - and it is a good thing. Love does not necessitate sexual relations. I love my family and friends, for instance. As a Christian I am called to love everyone. Obviously, this is very different from the kind of "love" that you are using the term to refer to.

like your attempt to use age and gender as an analogy for orientation

Re-read it. I wasn't using age and gender as an analogy for orientation - rather I was listing certain things that are, in fact, beyond our control.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
you originally said:
"There's no evidence in favor of the idea that homosexuality is genetic"

and this remains wrong. there is a large body of evidence saying exactly that. there are plenty of attempts to dismiss evidence that sexual orientation is inborn but none of these attempts is coming form geneticists.

"Evidence" in cases like this is up for interpretation. Something which can be easily interpreted either way is not real evidence. But I clarified my position further to make it clear that such flimsy "evidence" is irrelevant as it can't be used to strengthen your position.

"leave homosexuality behind" what a stupid statement. People are who they are.

People are who they choose to be. Granted that some things are beyond our control, but there is no reason to think that sexuality is beyond our control. It might not be a binary switch that we can flip as we please - but to say that we have no influence over it is simply an extremist position used to take away personal responsibility.

we may choose the person we fall in love with but we don't get to choose the gender of who we fall in love with it just happens.

If we can choose who we fall in love with, we can choose the gender as well.

you need to do some remedial reading on evolution and genetics.

not every member of a species procreates, very few male gorillas, elephants or wolves have the opportunity to have offspring. This is part of their species survival mechanisms. a common feature of these animals and with humans is their reliance on a social structure for survival.

First off, it is erroneous to use the behaviors of misc. other animals to say how humans should behave. Very clearly human courting and mating is quite different from wild beasts.

Second off, while the non-alpha males of these species may frequently be beaten out of opportunities to mate - it would be wrong to describe them as sexually inactive. Their competition is very real and important.

Third, even given that certain social behaviors are employed to limit offspring, that is not a valid defense of a homosexual gene - which again would necessarily go extinct within the first generation if such a gene managed to evolve. So then, you are comparing apples and oranges.

the genes that seem to be responsible for homosexuality are apparently tied to genes for female fertility. Women with these genes tend to have more offspring leading to the distribution of those genes, these women also are more likely to give birth to gay males. In fact the greatest predictor of male homosexuality is the number of older biological brothers one has. (this holds true no matter if they are raised with biological families or adopted out). It is pretty easy to extrapolate how this would benefit humans, having non-reproducing members acts as a safety net for orphaned children and as a means of fostering out children if a mother is having to many to care for.

Making up cases where it might be beneficial is not evidence of any such thing - especially given the very modern nature of the argument.

At any rate, what of bi-sexuality, pedophilia, bestiality, etc. - will you say that there is a gene for all of these as well, and attempt to think up scenarios where they might be beneficial (even if there is no evidence that such scenarios are reflective of mans development). At some point you need to recognize the role of the individual and of their subconcious as opposed to attempting to argue that sexual deviations are a product of nature.

Pedophiles are not equivalent of homosexuals.

further the evidence shows that pedophilia is the result of actual brain damage.

Of course, you and society at large don't like pedophiles - so you and society have no qualms with saying that pedophilia is a disorder ;)

As society changes, what is considered a psychological disorder changes. They make up new disorders all the time, so you can be diagnosed and sold expensive pills.
 

resurrected

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The main point I wanted to make is there are other reasons for disliking homos; many dislike homosexuals for reasons other than religion. Many do not like homos for 'personal' reasons.

It's completely understandable that most people are repelled, by degree, from that which is unlike them.

let's examine that

i am a heterosexual male

that which is unlike me would be female or non-heterosexual

i am not repelled, as town has suggested, by females

i am repelled, as town has suggested, by non-heterosexuals

so in this case, town scores a 50%

he's probably thinking he hit a home run, having previously described 10% as "a large number" :chuckle:
 
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