ECT This should start a decent discussion: Universal Atonement

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
I am not going to load a plug in to watch what you found on the internet
but
I will try to point out that atonement and redemption are nearly the same
we don't use the word atonement
Jesus redeemed us all
that doesn't mean your sins are forgiven
that doesn't mean you are saved
it just means that you can be saved
it means you still have to repent
 

resodko

BANNED
Banned
i got to 9:21 and switched over to Bruce Springsteen & Eddie Vedder playing a high energy version of No Surrender :idunno:
 

Word based mystic

New member
leaving it open for God to be the judge ultimately ((yes))
not mans doctrine.

saving power for all
not all receive and believe
God equips all to be able to passively receive and believe
Christ does the ((work))
we embrace or deny.
matthew 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

denying or receiving is not a (work of the law) method, we are not justified by works of the law. to receive or deny is not represented of salvation by works.

works is the law focused context.

whereas receiving/believing is activating the equipped grace to (((ALL))) that Christ died for. Christ equipped all through his dying for (ALL).
whether we use that equipping to receive and believe or deny is the question.


hunsinger does a great job of communicating and lays out a nice teaching.
 

Word based mystic

New member
so you don't have to work?

works produce gain in the life to come, as well as fruit for here and now.
the main key now is the development of fruit of the Spirit. Love, joy, peace, self control, patience, kindness and the like

these impact us for eternal substance and also impact and spread the kingdom of God for the present, here and now touching those around us.

If we are walking in the Spirit/love we are not sinning.

having our eyes on following the law is counterproductive. what we keep our mind focused on will produce that thing. keeping our mind on what we should not do will only make us desire that more.

rather keep your mind/thoughts on heavenly things and love, peace and joy and you will desire to do those things.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
having our eyes on following the law is counterproductive. what we keep our mind focused on will produce that thing.

we need to focus on the spirit of the law
and
not the letter of the law

loving God and our neighbor is the spirit of the law

the letter of the law hangs on it
 

Word based mystic

New member
we need to focus on the spirit of the law
and
not the letter of the law

loving God and our neighbor is the spirit of the law

the letter of the law hangs on it

exactly. walking in love towards God and our neighbors and even our enemies fulfills the law without having our eyes focused on what we should not do.
 

TFTn5280

New member
leaving it open for God to be the judge ultimately ((yes))
not mans doctrine.

saving power for all
not all receive and believe
God equips all to be able to passively receive and believe
Christ does the ((work))
we embrace or deny.
matthew 10:33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

denying or receiving is not a (work of the law) method, we are not justified by works of the law. to receive or deny is not represented of salvation by works.

works is the law focused context.

whereas receiving/believing is activating the equipped grace to (((ALL))) that Christ died for. Christ equipped all through his dying for (ALL).
whether we use that equipping to receive and believe or deny is the question.


hunsinger does a great job of communicating and lays out a nice teaching.

Perhaps what you missed is the dialectic in Barth's theology, Torrance's too for that matter. Atonement is not just sufficient for all and efficacious for some (by faith); it is complete, effective, and universal in scope. Nothing can separate humanity ~ via our inclusive election in Christ ~ from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is the "objective" pole of salvation. The "subjective" pole is the active response of believers by way of faith participation in and through Jesus Christ.

The question of course regards those who hang in the balance, they being three groups: those who are incapable of "belief" ~ infants, etc; those who have not heard the true Gospel message, thus having had no opportunity to respond; and those who have heard, do understand, and still reject Jesus Christ. This latter group are likely destined to face the second death alone. The former group are raised from the dead safely in the arms of Jesus. The group in the middle are those with whom we seek to reach with the Good News of Jesus Christ. Because it is truly good news and the power of God into (eis) salvation, they are likely to believe and benefit immediately from the surety of Christ's Spirit in them, the sanctifying hope of glory.

The dialectic is the tension between the two poles. Where do we concentrate our preaching/teaching: on the Good News of humanity's full and effective inclusion in Christ's atoning work or on humanity's call to participate in it by faith? Barth thought the former; Torrance the same. In no respect does faith "activate" salvation. "Therefore repent and believe in Christ" comes at the end of Gospel, in full awareness of their inclusion in it, and not set as a condition upon receiving it. Those who believe receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the surety of their salvation. Those who don't, we leave to the righteous, just, and merciful (all contained within the meaning of one word in Hebrew) judgment of God in Christ. It is not our call to make; hence the tension.

From my take on your understanding of Hunsinger, you may have missed the efficacy of the objective pole ~ that all truly does mean all ~ thus (still) throwing the entire weight of salvation on the backs of respondents, that being their obligation to believe in order to receive. Or from the other Federal Calvinist side, making God the bad guy for electing only some to salvation (I know, I know; it's really our fault).

Thoughts?
 
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TFTn5280

New member
I am going to post the following for your consideration. It begins to extrapolate the "all" of Christ's atoning work:

In Ephesians 1.10 Paul writes, "that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times [God the Father] might gather together in one the all in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him" (my translation).

The words "gather together" here are a translation of the Greek word anakephalaiow, which literally means "to re-head-up." It was the Father's will that in the fullness of times he would send his unique son to "re-gather, via headship," in this One "the all" in Christ (and here "all" is neuter so it is inclusive of everything, not just humanity, but certainly humanity as well, as included in the all). Now that was really cumbersome. I apologize. But I believe it was necessary to gain comprehension of what's going, not only here, but elsewhere in passages like Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15. For contained in this verse is the ancient Mediterranean-world concept of "the one and the many."

As westerners we do not so much think in terms of headship. We are much more individualistic in our concepts of responsibility, for example. Each one of us is responsible for his or her own actions but not so much the consequence of those actions as spread across to others relative to their inclusion in us by way of representation; for example, if I get caught stealing from my neighbor, the authorities are not likely to chop off my children's hands too. BUT in the Mediterranean social world at the time of Christ, specifically, that was not the case at all. In that setting there was very much in place the idea of one person standing in as representative or head of the entirety of a group of people under his headship. There is much to buttress our understanding of this social construct in the writings of early Greek philosophers and writers such as Socrates via Plato, Plato himself, Aristotle, Homer, Ulysses (where, for example, you may have seen Achilles defeat the imposing champ in his victory for the all in the movie Troy), as well as others, where we extrapolate this concept of "the one and the many." Equipped with this information, we see clearly the same construct in ancient Semitic writings as well, in OT narratives like the accounts of Boaz and Ruth, and David as he stood in as head over all of Israel in his confrontation with Goliath. We see it also in Abraham as representative over all of his descendants...and Adam over all of humanity, even over all of creation.

In Ephesians 1.10 we learn that God sent his Son, the Christ to re-head-up what was relinquished in the headship of the first head/representative, Adam. Now, that was a long way of getting to misinformed statements like, "Christ isn't cleaning up Adam's mess as much as He is cleaning up Adam." You see, I think it might be better stated this way: Christ was not only cleaning up Adam; he was cleaning up Adam's mess as well ~ that being the mess he made of all humanity and even all of creation in his fall.

What is the significance of this discovery? Under the headship of Adam, everything was lost, given over to new heads like sin, death, and the devil, for example, and the impact they have had on creation itself and all contained within it. But Christ came to re-head-up the collective of Adam's relinquished headship. In the "one" Adam the "many" or the "all" fell. But in the "One" Christ, the second Adam, the head over all, the "many" (I'm narrowing it down to a discussion of humanity) are re-gathered, re-claimed, re-headed-up in him. That is, everyone represented in the headship of Adam are represented uniquely in the headship of the second Adam, Christ.

In the following passage I am going to provide a translation of the Greek text in order to bring out the Mediterranean social concept of "the one and the many," as it relates to Adam and Christ in Paul's address. The passage is Rom 5.15-19. All I will be doing is including the definite article ("the") where it appears in the Gr text. Please read it now from within the social construct of "the one and the many" or "the one and the all." Let's see how the inclusion of the definite article influences our understanding of the passage:

15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense the many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to the many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore, as through the one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through the one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so also by the one Man's obedience the many shall be made righteous.

Do you sense the subtle shift which takes place in our thinking when the definite article is removed as opposed to when it is included in the text? All of the Greek manuscripts we use, including the Textus Receptus, in our translations of the Gr NT into English have the definite article preceding the "one" and the "many" in this passage. This is an instance where translators have been unaware of New Testament/Mediterranean world constructs and thus literary conventions. Being unaware of this particular construct/convention, they omit the definite articles in places for sake of fluidity, which is not uncommon in Gr-to-English translations. In this case, however, their lack of awareness assisted in leading readers into confusion as to what Paul was attempting to convey here, through their misinterpretation of this passage. I digress.

The impact of this and all the-one-and-the-many texts relative to Adam and Christ is that every single person, specifically, and thing in a macro-sense, that is represented by Adam is re-headed-up by way of representation in Christ, the second Adam. Here, in Romans, we discover that the "many" of the first man are the same as the "many" of the second Man, the difference being that where the first man brought death, condemnation, and judgment to "the many," which is "all"; the second Man brought an abundance of grace, righteousness, and justification of life to "the many," which is also "all." Hence the two are similar in that they are both representatives of "all men," but they are different in what they produced for that same group of "all men."

My belief: this passage should stand as a model in our interpretation of Christ's incarnational-atoning work; for again, we may conclude that everything that is true about the existence of all humanity under the representation of the first man, is equally, entirely true in regards to our existence within the inclusion of the Second Man, Jesus Christ. As a result, the kind of questions, for instance, that this reading should be raising in our western minds is this: What are the implications of Christ's “justification” of all of humanity to our theological constructs?

Blessings to all,
 

Totton Linnet

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Silver Subscriber
This should not be on the welcomes board.

The problem is you are for all your fine words in direct contradiction of Christ who said "these will depart into eternal punishment"
 

TFTn5280

New member
This should not be on the welcomes board.

Yeah, well it would be nice if our brilliant admins would explain to us newbies how to start a new thread. I searched until I found a button and pushed it. Oh well, your cheery voice will be a warm welcome to the new crew.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Yeah, well it would be nice if our brilliant admins would explain to us newbies how to start a new thread. I searched until I found a button and pushed it. Oh well, your cheery voice will be a warm welcome to the new crew.

don't worry
they can move it
if
they want to
 

TFTn5280

New member
In this post I will embark upon two tasks: 1) to argue against the gospel as it is preached in mainstream evangelical Christianity, and 2) to present in a truly evangelical articulation the alternative to that presentation. As in most presentations of the Gospel to the world, I will not be providing a litany of biblical texts. That endeavor will be presented in later posts, as I will ground that message in Scriptural contexts. That said, let’s look at the gospel as it is not, then again presented as it should be taught to the world, the Gospel of Jesus Christ and him alone:

There is an evangelical way to preach the Gospel and an unevangelical way to preach it. The Gospel is preached in an unevangelical way, as happens so often in contemporary evangelicalism, when the preacher announces: This is what Jesus Christ has done for you, but you will not be saved unless you make your own personal decision for Christ as your Savior. Or: Jesus Christ loved you and gave his life for you on the Cross, but you will be saved only if you give your heart to him. In that event what is actually coming across to people is not a Gospel of unconditional Grace, “the love of God in Christ alone,” but some other gospel of conditional grace, which belies the essential nature and content of the Gospel as it is in Jesus. To preach the Gospel in that conditional or legalist way has the effect of telling sinners that in the last resort the responsibility for their salvation is taken off the shoulders of the Lamb of God and placed squarely upon them ~ but in that event they feel that they may never be saved, knowing perfectly well in their own hearts that if the chain that binds them to God in Jesus Christ has as even one of its links their own feeble act of decision, then the whole chain is as weak as that, its weakest link. They are aware that the very self who is being called to make such a momentous decision requires to be saved, so that the preaching of the Gospel would not really be Good News unless it announced that in his unconditional love and grace Jesus Christ had put that human self, that ego of theirs, on an entirely different basis by being replaced at that crucial point by Jesus Christ Himself.

How, then, is the Gospel to be preached in a genuinely evangelical way? Surely in such a way that full and central place is given to the vicarious humanity of Jesus as the all-sufficient human response to the saving love of God which he has freely and unconditionally provided for us. We preach and the Gospel evangelically, then, in such a way as this: God loves you so utterly and completely that he has given himself for you in Jesus Christ his beloved Son, and has thereby pledged his very Being as God for your salvation. In Jesus Christ God has actualized his unconditional love for you in your human nature in such a once for all way, that he cannot go back on it without denying himself. Jesus Christ died for you precisely because you are sinful and utterly unworthy of him, and has thereby already made you his own before and apart from your ever believing in him. He has bound you to himself by his love in a way that he will never let you go, for even if you reject him and damn yourself to hell, his love will never cease. Therefore, repent and believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

From beginning to end what Jesus Christ has done for you he has done not only as God but as man. He has acted vicariously in your place in the whole range of your human life and activity, including your personal decisions, and your responses to God’s love, and even your acts of faith. He has believed for you, fulfilled your human response to God, even made your personal decision for you, so that he acknowledges you before God as one who has already responded to God in him, who has already believed in God through him, and whose personal decision is already implicated in Christ’s self-offering to the Father, in all of which he has been fully and completely accepted by the Father, so that in Jesus Christ you are already accepted by him. Therefore, renounce yourself, take up your cross and follow Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

(For details on the above presentation relative to my former mentor, Professor T.F. Torrance, please email me privately.)

I will be back later to begin to ground this presentation in the grammar of the NT. Wherein we will discover how this extremely Good News is reconciled with statements which seem to place conditions upon God’s love by the call to human response.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
what are we doing here
if
everyone is saved?
if not
then there must be a condition
and
we are just arguing about what that condition is
so
please don't talk about unconditional unless you are talking about a mother's love
 
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