Theology Club: To the Jew First

Danoh

New member
What "good news" of Christ which saved was first preached to the Jews?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

Would Paul preach the gospel of which he speaks here to the Jews first?:

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being" (Gal.1:15-16).​

If the answer is "no," then which gospel which saved was preached to the Jew first?

What ever answer will finally will both shut Jerry up, and shut him down.

Wait, no such answer exists. He will then turn it, as is his practice also, into more of the same, ceaseless, Daffy Duck hounding after one all, ever bellyaching "I WANT MY ACKNOWLEDGMENT NOW!!! - WHERE'S MY PRIZE!!!"
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
What ever answer will finally will both shut Jerry up, and shut him down.

Wait, no such answer exists. He will then turn it, as is his practice also, into more of the same, ceaseless, Daffy Duck hounding after one all, ever bellyaching "I WANT MY ACKNOWLEDGMENT NOW!!! - WHERE'S MY PRIZE!!!"
Pardon me, Danoh. I mean this with no animosity.
But weren't you one of the ones of us that wanted this forum to be clear of put downs to others and their view?
Jerry has been warned, and as far as I can tell, he has abided by the warning since then and has not personally insulted a poster or view.
 

Danoh

New member
Pardon me, Danoh. I mean this with no animosity.
But weren't you one of the ones of us that wanted this forum to be clear of put downs to others and their view?
Jerry has been warned, and as far as I can tell, he has abided by the warning since then and has not personally insulted a poster or view.

Just after that warning, he not only excused his actions, but then spoke down once more to STP, heir, and Dessert Reign, in his disagreement with them.

As he continues to post his same old pet peeves against the differences in understanding by those supposedly his own.

Given his pattern, and his words in his latest thread "Acts 28" nothing has changed. He has already repeated his pattern of reading his illogic into STP's words, and then concluding against them as STP's intended sense.

I love ya sis, but this is not over with that cyber bully.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Those in the Psuedo-MAD continue to refuse to answer my points. Some of them think that if they bad-mouth me enough then these questions will be answered. However, they are wrong! Here is what I asked again:

What "good news" of Christ which saved was first preached to the Jews?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​
?


Hi and I will only speak for my self !!

Rom 1:16 , For I am not ashamed of THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST , for it God's power into salvation to every BELIEVING one , both to ( the ) Jew first and to ( the ) Greek .

There are 3 verb tenses here ALL in the Present Tense and speaks to the PRESENT CONTINUOUS ACTION in the Dispensation of Grace !!

#2 , All believing one than become part of the Body of Christ !!

#2 , The Gospel of Christ , I believe only used by Paul !!

l #3 , The verb " that believeth " also in the Present Tense , also speaks to the Dispensation of the Grace of God !!

#4 , This is the first time that Jews and Greeks can be SAVED and be PLACED into the Body of Christ , in 1 Cor 12:13 and especially Gal 3:28 !!

Try again , Jerry !!

dan p
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Try again , Jerry !!

You need to try again because you did not answer my points:

Would Paul preach the gospel of which he speaks here to the Jews first?:

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being" (Gal.1:15-16).​

If the answer is "no," then which gospel which saved was preached to the Jew first?

If your answer is "yes" then why would Paul preach a gospel which was specifically intended for the Gentiles to the Jews first?
 

Danoh

New member
You need to try again because you did not answer my points:

Would Paul preach the gospel of which he speaks here to the Jews first?:

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being" (Gal.1:15-16).​

If the answer is "no," then which gospel which saved was preached to the Jew first?

If your answer is "yes" then why would Paul preach a gospel which was specifically intended for the Gentiles to the Jews first?

I read this despotic interrogating manner of Jerry's and I get an image of DP tied to a chair, being slapped back and forth to answer what he is baited to answer, only to receive another slap when he answers anything but what Jerry demands be the answer.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Would Paul preach the gospel of which he speaks here to the Jews first?:

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being" (Gal.1:15-16).​

If the answer is "no," then which gospel which saved was preached to the Jew first?

I'm a little reluctant to say anything, but I notice that Paul was speaking about Christ in you in the quote in Gal. above. I don't think that's what he's talking about when he mentions what was preached to the Jew first. This seems to be talking about enduring to the end. Perhaps if Jerry can't respond then someone else might address this. :)

Romans 2:6-13
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.​
 

whitestone

Well-known member
Acts does not confuse me at all.

You see that, that I just posted, I forget where now - about "a Sabbath's day journey," Acts 1:12?

Just be that curious about it all.

And again, brother; the Greek is fine and all that, and I appreciate you for that; I do.

But get in the Book, brother. Just grab a KJV and read, and read, and read.

If you are as good at the Greek as you believe yourself to be; forty-seven of that then known world's best were better. Men who were not only raised in various languages from childhood, but who had known that Book inside and out.

Just look at how well they managed to keep the Mystery intact though their notes show they'd been practically oblivious to it.

That is some kind of special.

In this, if Matthew thru Early Acts are Old Testament ground; then the OT is where you are often going to find your answers to the Acts of the Apostles - "He came unto His own..." John 1:11.

You will get to where you end up forgetting more than most will ever even think on!

Get in that Book...

thats curious,that is the most of us see Luke/Acts as somewhat unclear on some matters. In Luke 1:2 KJV Luke makes the statement insinuating the things he was writing to Theophilus were things he was delivered by those who were actually eyewitnesses to the described events.

Now there are several different ways to look at what he said in Luke 1:2 KJV one is that unlike other books we have in our bible here are two (Luke&Acts) where the author himself lays no claim to it's context being written,conveyed,ordained ect. by the Holy Spirit and furthermore Luke expands even further as he explains its origin as originating by "eyewitnesses" who witnessed these events.

As for Luke himself he did witness a portion of the issue but only from Acts 16 onward in time where he also changes in his letters to first person pronoun (we,us,ect.),,,but before this point in time Luke was not a witness to any of these events. ,,,,since this is not confusing was the book of Acts inspired by the Holy Spirit or was it something that was taught to Luke as he says in Luke 1:2 KJV ?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I'm a little reluctant to say anything, but I notice that Paul was speaking about Christ in you in the quote in Gal. above.

That maybe right but the main point I am trying to make is the fact that Paul was speaking about a duty to preach something among the Gentiles:

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being" (Gal.1:15-16).​

I don't think that's what he's talking about when he mentions what was preached to the Jew first.

Good! Then which gospel do you say was preached to the Jews first and belief in that gospel resulted in salvation for those Jews?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
That maybe right but the main point I am trying to make is the fact that Paul was speaking about a duty to preach something among the Gentiles:

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being" (Gal.1:15-16).​

Oh, well the point I was trying to make is that it isn't the same as God raising up to Israel a Saviour.



Good! Then which gospel do you say was preached to the Jews first and belief in that gospel resulted in salvation for those Jews?

First I want to make this perfectly clear. I am not claiming to be any kind of an expert here. The last time I said that, you acted like I hadn't made that stipulation. Please do not do that again.

I would think it would be what Paul was preaching here.

Acts 13:23-26
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose. Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I would think it would be what Paul was preaching here.

Acts 13:23-26
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose. Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.​

If you are right then are you not admitting that the Jews who lived under the law were saved when they believed that gospel?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​
 

DAN P

Well-known member
What "good news" of Christ which saved was first preached to the Jews?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

Can anyone answer this question, especially anyone from the Neo-MAD community?


Hi , and in Acts 22:21 Christ sent Paul to the Gentiles , sorry !!

dan p
 

DAN P

Well-known member
You need to try again because you did not answer my points:

Would Paul preach the gospel of which he speaks here to the Jews first?:

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being" (Gal.1:15-16).​

If the answer is "no," then which gospel which saved was preached to the Jew first?

If your answer is "yes" then why would Paul preach a gospel which was specifically intended for the Gentiles to the Jews first?


Hi and I have to leave , BUT in Acts 22:21 Jesus sent Paul away to the Genti;les as the Jews would not listen to Paul !!

So , Jerry was Paul saved by Water or Grace ??

ARE you going to answer or run away !!

dan p
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
If you are right then are you not admitting that the Jews who lived under the law were saved when they believed that gospel?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

As I've said....if they "lived under the law" then they were under obligation to keep the commandments. Perhaps if you dropped that particular phrase then you could say they were saved by Paul's gospel where we are saved by grace through faith....apart from works.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
As I've said....if they "lived under the law" then they were under obligation to keep the commandments. Perhaps if you dropped that particular phrase then you could say they were saved by Paul's gospel where we are saved by grace through faith....apart from works.

They were under the obligation to keep the law but not for salvation.

After all, they were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Since they were saved by grace through faith it is evident that "works" played no part in their salvation:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

So are you now denying that there was ever a gospel preached to the Jews first which saved all of them who believed it?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
They were under the obligation to keep the law but not for salvation.

After all, they were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Since they were saved by grace through faith it is evident that "works" played no part in their salvation:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

So are you now denying that there was ever a gospel preached to the Jews first which saved all of them who believed it?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

Actually, the Jews did have a debt they had to pay. That's why there are so many "if's" in the law.

And please refrain from saying things to me like, "So are you now denying...." and then make some statement that has nothing to do with what I was saying....or, if it does then I certainly can't figure out what it might be.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Actually, the Jews did have a debt they had to pay. That's why there are so many "if's" in the law.

And please refrain from saying things to me like, "So are you now denying...." and then make some statement that has nothing to do with what I was saying....or, if it does then I certainly can't figure out what it might be.

I am just trying to make sure I am underatanding you correctly is why I ask you if you are denying something or other.

As I said, the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

I also said that since they were saved by grace through faith it is evident that "works" played no part in their salvation:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

But you are evidently confused concerning the meaning of salvation by "grace" because you said:

Actually, the Jews did have a debt they had to pay. That's why there are so many "if's" in the law.

So are you arguing that the Jews who lived under the law were not really saved on the principle of grace? Or are you saying that Paul was wrong when he said this?:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Also, if the Jews who lived under the law were not saved by faith and faith alone then I cannot understand how you can think that believing a gospel could have saved any of those Jews. But Paul said the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVETH:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
What "good news" of Christ which saved was first preached to the Jews?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

Can anyone answer this question, especially anyone from the Neo-MAD community?
The gospel of Christ

Paul declared it in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV.
 

Danoh

New member
thats curious,that is the most of us see Luke/Acts as somewhat unclear on some matters. In Luke 1:2 KJV Luke makes the statement insinuating the things he was writing to Theophilus were things he was delivered by those who were actually eyewitnesses to the described events.

Now there are several different ways to look at what he said in Luke 1:2 KJV one is that unlike other books we have in our bible here are two (Luke&Acts) where the author himself lays no claim to it's context being written,conveyed,ordained ect. by the Holy Spirit and furthermore Luke expands even further as he explains its origin as originating by "eyewitnesses" who witnessed these events.

As for Luke himself he did witness a portion of the issue but only from Acts 16 onward in time where he also changes in his letters to first person pronoun (we,us,ect.),,,but before this point in time Luke was not a witness to any of these events. ,,,,since this is not confusing was the book of Acts inspired by the Holy Spirit or was it something that was taught to Luke as he says in Luke 1:2 KJV ?

This issue is like the Preservation of the Text issue - it is solved for by the same means that issue is solved for.

Not by guessing at, or perhaps reading a thing maybe from this angle, or maybe from that one... until one of them fits.

Rather it is solved for by the simple advice "when you're stuck, let it go and keep reading, until...

Until you have built up enough further familiarity with things in Scripture, that next thing you know, you have solved for such a question.

In this, this issue you bring up is one of where the inspiration lays, not rather or not it does.

Fact is that whatever aspect of Luke's "account" was "second hand" was itself inspired in those who gave him said accounts.

Case in point - Mark 16 (yep, I believe it is part of the text):

20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Hebrews 2:

1. Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3. How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4. God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5. For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

The Preservation of the Text Issue works this same way - a multiplicity of copies that by said copies carried the same weight and authority as the originally inspired text.

Case in point, it is obvious from Romans through Philemon that the Apostle Paul had a copy of Isaiah he considered as authoritative as the originally inspired text, and that he had also believed of Timothy's copies, 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

Peter's group had copies of Paul's writings that Peter in 2 Peter 3: 15-16 considers "Scripture."

In Luke 4 - one of the books you raised this "second hand" issue about, the Lord is depicted being handed a copy of Isaiah, He refers to as "Scripture," in verse 21, and that verse 17 has just referred to as "the book of the prophet Esais."

In the other book by Luke you also raised the issue you raise about, the Ethiopian Eunuch is depicted by Luke as one who "read Esaias the prophet," 8:18.

Luke also writes in verse 32. "The place of the scripture which he read was this..."

On this, of much more that could be said, I'd have to conclude the every opposite of your "the author himself lays no claim to it's context being written, conveyed, ordained, etc., by the Holy Spirit."

Acts 17 - more copies treated as having the same authority of the originally inspired text:

2. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:

24. And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

I could go on, but the point is that Luke appeared to view second hand information (the repeating of another's words) as to this issue, as carrying the same weight and authority as the words of the original the Spirit inspired.
 
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