Theology Club: To the Jew First

[heir]

If you are right then are you not admitting that the Jews who lived under the law were saved when they believed that gospel?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

All those to whom Paul preached who trusted the Lord after hearing and believing the gospel of Christ are saved. :duh:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The gospel of Christ

Paul declared it in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV.

So the gospel of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 was preached to the Jews before it was preached to the Gentiles. Therefore, it was preached to the Jews while they remained under the law and they were saved by faith and faith alone:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

What I am curious about is why anyone would take the "gospel of the uncircumcision" (Gal.2:7;1 Cor.15:1-4) to the Jews before taking it to the uncircumcision.

Can you explain that?

 

[whitestone]

This issue is like the Preservation of the Text issue - it is solved for by the same means that issue is solved for.

Not by guessing at, or perhaps reading a thing maybe from this angle, or maybe from that one... until one of them fits.

Rather it is solved for by the simple advice "when you're stuck, let it go and keep reading, until...

Until you have built up enough further familiarity with things in Scripture, that next thing you know, you have solved for such a question.

In this, this issue you bring up is one of where the inspiration lays, not rather or not it does.

Fact is that whatever aspect of Luke's "account" was "second hand" was itself inspired in those who gave him said accounts.

Case in point - Mark 16 (yep, I believe it is part of the text):

20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Hebrews 2:

1. Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3. How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4. God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5. For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

The Preservation of the Text Issue works this same way - a multiplicity of copies that by said copies carried the same weight and authority as the originally inspired text.

Case in point, it is obvious from Romans through Philemon that the Apostle Paul had a copy of Isaiah he considered as authoritative as the originally inspired text, and that he had also believed of Timothy's copies, 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

Peter's group had copies of Paul's writings that Peter in 2 Peter 3: 15-16 considers "Scripture."

In Luke 4 - one of the books you raised this "second hand" issue about, the Lord is depicted being handed a copy of Isaiah, He refers to as "Scripture," in verse 21, and that verse 17 has just referred to as "the book of the prophet Esais."

In the other book by Luke you also raised the issue you raise about, the Ethiopian Eunuch is depicted by Luke as one who "read Esaias the prophet," 8:18.

Luke also writes in verse 32. "The place of the scripture which he read was this..."

On this, of much more that could be said, I'd have to conclude the every opposite of your "the author himself lays no claim to it's context being written, conveyed, ordained, etc., by the Holy Spirit."

Acts 17 - more copies treated as having the same authority of the originally inspired text:

2. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:

24. And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

I could go on, but the point is that Luke appeared to view second hand information (the repeating of another's words) as to this issue, as carrying the same weight and authority as the words of the original the Spirit inspired.

This issue is like the Preservation of the Text issue - it is solved for by the same means that issue is solved for.

Not by guessing at, or perhaps reading a thing maybe from this angle, or maybe from that one... until one of them fits.

Rather it is solved for by the simple advice "when you're stuck, let it go and keep reading, until...

Until you have built up enough further familiarity with things in Scripture, that next thing you know, you have solved for such a question.

In this, this issue you bring up is one of where the inspiration lays, not rather or not it does.

Fact is that whatever aspect of Luke's "account" was "second hand" was itself inspired in those who gave him said accounts.

Case in point - Mark 16 (yep, I believe it is part of the text):

20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Hebrews 2:

1. Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3. How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4. God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5. For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

The Preservation of the Text Issue works this same way - a multiplicity of copies that by said copies carried the same weight and authority as the originally inspired text.

Case in point, it is obvious from Romans through Philemon that the Apostle Paul had a copy of Isaiah he considered as authoritative as the originally inspired text, and that he had also believed of Timothy's copies, 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

Peter's group had copies of Paul's writings that Peter in 2 Peter 3: 15-16 considers "Scripture."

In Luke 4 - one of the books you raised this "second hand" issue about, the Lord is depicted being handed a copy of Isaiah, He refers to as "Scripture," in verse 21, and that verse 17 has just referred to as "the book of the prophet Esais."

In the other book by Luke you also raised the issue you raise about, the Ethiopian Eunuch is depicted by Luke as one who "read Esaias the prophet," 8:18.

Luke also writes in verse 32. "The place of the scripture which he read was this..."

On this, of much more that could be said, I'd have to conclude the every opposite of your "the author himself lays no claim to it's context being written, conveyed, ordained, etc., by the Holy Spirit."

Acts 17 - more copies treated as having the same authority of the originally inspired text:

2. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:

24. And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

I could go on, but the point is that Luke appeared to view second hand information (the repeating of another's words) as to this issue, as carrying the same weight and authority as the words of the original the Spirit inspired.

lol,we do as it seems tend to group things by association when determining what we consider as scripture. Hermas whom some believe wrote "Shepard of Hermas"(some do not) also was mentioned by Paul in Romans yet many do not regard SOH as inspired scripture.Clement of Rome also mentioned by Paul also wrote letters that are not viewed as scripture,,,

In Luke 1:2 KJV there is this statement that this information was delivered to a group referred to as "us" (the believers then) but in fact none of the 12 were witnesses of the events that took place at the birth of Jesus nor John the Baptist. Luke conveys the details of their births although he himself was not a witness.

So any of the information from the birth of Jesus and J.T.B written in the Gospel Luke would then have to have come from "eyewitnesses" who were among that group(prior to the 12,Mary,Elizabeth,Joseph,Zacharias ect.) so Luke as it seems knew some of these. The 12 in all the Gospels were chosen after Jesus began preaching so again they the 12,were not eyewitnesses of any of the events prior to Jesus appointing them.

From that point the 12 could and probably the source of the information conveyed to those referred to as "us" in Luke 1:2 KJV . So there were actually 3 groups of information that Luke is referring to when he makes the comment in 1:2 ,,,

(1) those who were eyewitnesses to events from Christ birth up to the 12,,

(2) the things the 12 were eyewitnesses of (beginning at the time they were chosen by Jesus,to the point when Luke began to write the G.O.L.

(3)Luke himself, from Acts 16 onward when he begins to travel among Paul's group.(personal pronoun change from them,they to we,us)

 

[Danoh]

So the gospel of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 was preached to the Jews before it was preached to the Gentiles. Therefore, it was preached to the Jews while they remained under the law and they were saved by faith and faith alone:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

What I am curious about is why anyone would take the "gospel of the uncircumcision" (Gal.2:7;1 Cor.15:1-4) to the Jews before taking it to the uncircumcision.

Can you explain that?

...I think that you fail to distinguish between a Christain's "standing" before God (sitting together with Christ in heaven) and a Christian's "walk" upon the earth. Things which differ are not the same.

This, even as Jerry has continued to, and for decades now to make the issue of "a Christian's "standing" before God" as the issue of "a Christian's standing" before Jerry himself.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Theology Club Rules:

"Almost all memberships will be approved however your membership will be revoked if you engage in anti-Christian rhetoric, repeated cases of red-herrings, quibbling over terms (equivocation), strawmen, false allegations, and other devices contrary to honest debate. In short the Theology Club is a place for honest and friendly discussion regarding theological topics."​

 

[Danoh]

Theology Club Rules:

"Almost all memberships will be approved however your membership will be revoked if you engage in anti-Christian rhetoric, repeated cases of red-herrings, quibbling over terms (equivocation), strawmen, false allegations, and other devices contrary to honest debate. In short the Theology Club is a place for honest and friendly discussion regarding theological topics."​

Jerry has got to be kidding...

Leave it to him to find a means of stooping to a new low...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry has got to be kidding...

Leave it to him to find a means of stooping to a new low...

No, I am not kidding. What you said here has nothing to do with "honest debate":

This, even as Jerry has continued to, and for decades now to make the issue of "a Christian's "standing" before God" as the issue of "a Christian's standing" before Jerry himself.

All you are doing there is a person attack on me and what you say has nothing to do with an "honest debate":

"Almost all memberships will be approved however your membership will be revoked if you engage in anti-Christian rhetoric, repeated cases of red-herrings, quibbling over terms (equivocation), strawmen, false allegations, and other devices contrary to honest debate. In short the Theology Club is a place for honest and friendly discussion regarding theological topics."​

Your allegations against me are false and are contrary to honest debate.

You are more than welcome to debate the issues in regard to what the Bible teaches but your false allegations are against the rules.

 

[Tambora]

Looks like we are not going to have a badgering free Theology Club.
It's just a fantasy.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Looks like we are not going to have a badgering free Theology Club.
It's just a fantasy.

I am trying my best but almost every single time Doaoh quotes me it is for the express purpose to attack me personally and has nothing to do with honest debate.

 

[Tambora]

I am trying my best

Wonderful.

but almost every single time Doaoh quotes me it is for the express purpose to attack me personally and has nothing to do with honest debate.

Extremely irritating when someone does that, isn't it?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

To the Jew first, and also the Greek, demonstrated here:

Acts 13
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.


Beautifully simple.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Extremely irritating when someone does that, isn't it?

Yes, and the sad part is the fact that it contributes in no way to having an actual discussion on the truth found in the Bible.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

To the Jew first, and also the Greek, demonstrated here:

Acts 13
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Beautifully simple.

Let us look at this verse that speaks of a gospel being preached to the Jew first:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

Those who believed this gospel were saved when they believed it. So any of the following people who believed it, including the Jews who lived under the law, were saved by faith and faith alone:

"Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent" (Acts 13:26).​

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Let us look at this verse that speaks of a gospel being preached to the Jew first:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

Those who believed this gospel were saved when they believed it. So any of the following people who believed it, including the Jews who lived under the law, were saved by faith and faith alone:

"Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent" (Acts 13:26).​

Paul calls what he preached to them "the word of this salvation" so it is obvious that the word which he preached to them brought salvation to all those who believed that word, the gospel of Christ.

These Jews and Gentiles were saved by faith and faith alone!

And it is indeed beautifully simple!

:jawdrop:

I agree.

 

[Sherman]

What ever answer will finally will both shut Jerry up, and shut him down.

Wait, no such answer exists. He will then turn it, as is his practice also, into more of the same, ceaseless, Daffy Duck hounding after one all, ever bellyaching "I WANT MY ACKNOWLEDGMENT NOW!!! - WHERE'S MY PRIZE!!!"

Jerry was warned for personal attacks and here you do it. I think you need to place Jerry on ignore. In fact put each other on ignore.

 

[Tambora]

Yes, and the sad part is the fact that it contributes in no way to having an actual discussion on the truth found in the Bible.

Remember that each and every time you post. As should everyone.

You have said that you are trying to do better. That's great, and appreciated! Stay on course, Jerry.

Now if we could just get everyone else to try also, we might actually have a nice study forum.
If everyone does not exhibit self-control and stay on course with this, then pointing out your behavior is hypocritical.

The only person we can control is our self.


There has been an uproar about how this forum has been operating. And rightly so.
Jerry got warned, but the warning is for all of us.
And yet, some of the ones complaining the most about the badgering are the ones doing most of it now.
We've got to be united in this endeavor, or it will fall apart.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I agree.

So you agree that the Jews who lived under the law were saved apart from works?

Do you agree that Paul was not preaching the "gospel of the uncircumcision" in the synagogues of the Jews at Acts 13:26?

Obviously he was preaching to them the "gospel of the circumcision."

So we can understand that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith and faith alone when they believed the "gospel of the circumcision."

This is so simple.

 

[Danoh]

Jerry was warned for personal attacks and here you do it. I think you need to place Jerry on ignore. In fact put each other on ignore.

Consider that done, on my end of your request.

Fair enough, and thanks for looking into this.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

So you agree that the Jews who lived under the law were saved apart from works?

The ones Paul was sent to, of course.

 

[Tambora]

Consider that done, on my end of your request.

Fair enough, and thanks for looking into this.

Thank you.