TOL's James Hilston Agrees: Yes, God Can Change!!

[Delmar]

How do you know He hasn't already chosen to be evil and that He's been lying to believers for quite a while?

Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release!

Because He is righteous and worthy of trust. Jim , I do get what your saying, as a practical matter God cannot be evil because doing so would mean He is not righteous. God is righteous because He wants to be, not because he is a prisoner to righteousness.

 

[Delmar]

Jim
You have caused me to reexamine the term "immutability" and I have come to the conclusion that the word is entirely silly and un biblical. God is able to change. He does not change in His righteousness because He has determined He will not change in His righteousness.

 

[koban]

Don't worry, Poly, I can Biblically justify every insult I've thrown at Koban. Also, I don't mind Koban's puerile jabs. My hide is pretty thick. It's not the first time Koban has made crude sexual jokes about my mother. If anyone is curious, here's some interesting reading about her:

Hilston's mom

Yuengling, Large Draft, $2.25
Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release that Koban is jealous of!

And once again, Hilston seems unable to answer the simplest of questions.... :think:

Do you believe God is absolute?

Or do you believe that "good" and "evil" exist outside of God?

 

[BillyBob]

Hilston's mom

Your Dad was Mr. Miyagi? :noway:

"Wax on...wax off....Hilstonson"

 

[fool]

Do any of them include actions attributed to God in the Bible?

Yup

Then God's not absolute, is He?

Not moraly, he's regreted things before, so he's got an idea what's right and wrong.

I'm not sure I could. Upon what do you base it?

Life

 

[koban]

Yup

Me too.

Not moraly, he's regreted things before, so he's got an idea what's right and wrong.

Well, if anybody would, certainly He would! :chuckle:

Life

Problem with that is that everybody gets to make up their own ideas of right and wrong.

 

[fool]

Me too.



Well, if anybody would, certainly He would! :chuckle:

So if God has an idea of right and wrong, the right and wrong don't really come from him but from the idea.

Problem with that is that everybody gets to make up their own ideas of right and wrong.

True there will be many viewpoints, but I say that there is a right answer.

 

[koban]

So if God has an idea of right and wrong, the right and wrong don't really come from him but from the idea.

Yeah - I've been going back and forth about the idea that "good" and "evil" don't exist for God. I'm tending towards the concept that "evil" is going contrary to God's will, whatever that happens to be.

True there will be many viewpoints, but I say that there is a right answer.

If so, then that would tend to support the concept of an absolute morality.


I've got to wrap up soon - my van's still up in the air. :sozo2:

 

[Hilston]

Dear Deardelmar,

Hilston wrote: How do you know He hasn't already chosen to be evil and that He's been lying to believers for quite a while?

Because He is righteous and worthy of trust.

How do you know this? By personal experience? God could be lying, and if He has turned evil at any point in the past, how could you know? You Open Theists believe God could turn evil if He chose to, how do you determine that He hasn't done this already? Remember how the Bible describes Lucifer and his demons, appearing as an angel of light and as ministers of righteousness.

2Co11:14,15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.​

The Open Theist has no certainty, no assurance, no anchor for their soul, no Rock upon which to rest or to base their faith, hope or love.

Jim , I do get what your saying, as a practical matter God cannot be evil because doing so would mean He is not righteous.

Bob Enyart disagrees with you, who says God CAN be evil if He wanted to. He could have just turned yesterday and completely changed His mind (repented) about letting people into heaven. What assurance do you have that He hasn't?

God is righteous because He wants to be, not because he is a prisoner to righteousness.

Then you DO believe God can be unrighteous if He wanted to, right?

You have caused me to reexamine the term "immutability" and I have come to the conclusion that the word is entirely silly and un biblical.

The writer of Hebrews disagrees with you, and in fact, he attributes the full assurance and confidence of salvation upon God's inability to lie or to oppose His own decrees.

Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel (BOULE, God's deliberate intention and will), confirmed it by an oath: 18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible (ADUNATOS) for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; ...​

Note that the immutability is the basis, not for stripping God of His attribute as living (as Open Theists allege), but rather of the certitude and surety of the hope of salvation, calling it the anchor of the soul, sure and steadfast. What Deardelmar calls "entirely silly and unbiblical" the Bible calls the basis of strong consolation, the refuge upon which to base the believer's hope, the sure and stedfast anchor of the soul.

God is able to change. He does not change in His righteousness because He has determined He will not change in His righteousness.

The writer of Hebrews says that God CANNOT lie or violate His decrees. ADUNATOS is the Greek word that means without the power or ability. The same word is used of a man who was crippled from birth. He was without the power or ability to walk (Ac 4:18, translated "impotent"). Open Theists disagree. They believe God has the power to lie and to oppose His own will if He wanted to. And for that reason, they have no rational surety, no steadfast confidence, no reason to believe they will ever actually be saved because that salvation depends on TWO MUTABLE THINGS: (1) their own fallible faith, and (2) the irrational hope that God won't repent of wanting to save them.

BillyBob, my grandfather's name was Miyagi (my mother's maiden name). My father married her when he was stationed on Okinawa in the Air Force. Thanks for asking.

Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release!

 

[koban]

Dear Deardelmar,

Hilston wrote: How do you know He hasn't already chosen to be evil and that He's been lying to believers for quite a while?

How do you know this? By personal experience? God could be lying, and if He has turned evil at any point in the past, how could you know? You Open Theists believe God could turn evil if He chose to, how do you determine that He hasn't done this already? Remember how the Bible describes Lucifer and his demons, appearing as an angel of light and as ministers of righteousness.

2Co11:14,15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.​

The Open Theist has no certainty, no assurance, no anchor for their soul, no Rock upon which to rest or to base their faith, hope or love.

Bob Enyart disagrees with you, who says God CAN be evil if He wanted to. He could have just turned yesterday and completely changed His mind (repented) about letting people into heaven. What assurance do you have that He hasn't?

Then you DO believe God can be unrighteous if He wanted to, right?

The writer of Hebrews disagrees with you, and in fact, he attributes the full assurance and confidence of salvation upon God's inability to lie or to oppose His own decrees.

Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel (BOULE, God's deliberate intention and will), confirmed it by an oath: 18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible (ADUNATOS) for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; ...​

Note that the immutability is the basis, not for stripping God of His attribute as living (as Open Theists allege), but rather of the certitude and surety of the hope of salvation, calling it the anchor of the soul, sure and steadfast. What Deardelmar calls "entirely silly and unbiblical" the Bible calls the basis of strong consolation, the refuge upon which to base the believer's hope, the sure and stedfast anchor of the soul.

The writer of Hebrews says that God CANNOT lie or violate His decrees. ADUNATOS is the Greek word that means without the power or ability. The same word is used of a man who was crippled from birth. He was without the power or ability to walk (Ac 4:18, translated "impotent"). Open Theists disagree. They believe God has the power to lie and to oppose His own will if He wanted to. And for that reason, they have no rational surety, no steadfast confidence, no reason to believe they will ever actually be saved because that salvation depends on TWO MUTABLE THINGS: (1) their own fallible faith, and (2) the irrational hope that God won't repent of wanting to save them.

BillyBob, my grandfather's name was Miyagi (my mother's maiden name). My father married her when he was stationed on Okinawa in the Air Force. Thanks for asking.

Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release!

Still struggling with this one, Jim?

Do you believe God is absolute?

Or do you believe that "good" and "evil" exist outside of God?

 

[Hilston]

Still struggling with this one, Jim? ... Do you believe God is absolute? ... Or do you believe that "good" and "evil" exist outside of God?

Yeah, those questions are too hard for me. Ya know, I can answer every question thrown at me by every TOLer I've encountered here, but for some strange reason, I can't seem to answer your questions. They're just too intellectual, or maybe the words are too big. Maybe it's your dialect?

Anyway, try not to be too disappointed. There were probably lots of people who couldn't answer Einstein's questions either.

Doesn't run or drip,
Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release that Koban is jealous of!

 

[koban]

Yeah, those questions are too hard for me. Ya know, I can answer every question thrown at me by every TOLer I've encountered here, but for some strange reason, I can't seem to answer your questions. They're just too intellectual, or maybe the words are too big. Maybe it's your dialect?

Anyway, try not to be too disappointed. There were probably lots of people who couldn't answer Einstein's questions either.

Doesn't run or drip,
Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release that Koban is jealous of!

And yet another dodge. :think:





BTW - You may think you "can answer every question thrown at me by every TOLer I've encountered here", but the response of most people to your obfuscation and verbiage (yeah, I know, more big words - see if your mommy will let you play with the dictionary - wipe the jam off your fingers first) puts the lie to that claim.




I'll make it easier for you:

Is God absolute?

 

[Hilston]

And yet another dodge. :think:

Of course, it's a dodge! The questions are just too hard. I have to dodge them. Try to keep up, Kobrain.

BTW - You may think you "can answer every question thrown at me by every TOLer I've encountered here", but the response of most people to your obfuscation and verbiage (yeah, I know, more big words - see if your mommy will let you play with the dictionary - wipe the jam off your fingers first) puts the lie to that claim.

Now that you mention it ... you're right! All I do is obfuscationalize and verbiagate and lie. Good catch! You're really doing TOL a great service here, Koban. Keep up the good work! :up:

I'll make it easier for you:

Is God absolute?

You call that easier? Throw me a bone, man! I just can't seem to understand the question. It's too hard. Reading is hard, isn't it? Let alone figuring out those BIG words. I'm sorry Koban. I just don't have the intellectual prowess that you seem to wield so deftly.

Save energy and prevent costly repairs,
Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release that Koban is STILL jealous of!

 

[koban]

Of course, it's a dodge! The questions are just too hard. I have to dodge them. Try to keep up, Kobrain.

Now that you mention it ... you're right! All I do is obfuscationalize and verbiagate and lie. Good catch! You're really doing TOL a great service here, Koban. Keep up the good work! :up:

You call that easier? Throw me a bone, man! I just can't seem to understand the question. It's too hard. Reading is hard, isn't it? Let alone figuring out those BIG words. I'm sorry Koban. I just don't have the intellectual prowess that you seem to wield so deftly.

Save energy and prevent costly repairs,
Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release that Koban is STILL jealous of!

Let's try an easier one, one that most people here would have little trouble answering.

On a scale of one to twenty, just how big a jerk are you?

Take off your shoes if you have to. :chuckle:

 

[Delmar]

Dear Deardelmar,

Hilston wrote: How do you know He hasn't already chosen to be evil and that He's been lying to believers for quite a while?

How do you know this? By personal experience? God could be lying, and if He has turned evil at any point in the past, how could you know? You Open Theists believe God could turn evil if He chose to, how do you determine that He hasn't done this already? Remember how the Bible describes Lucifer and his demons, appearing as an angel of light and as ministers of righteousness.

2Co11:14,15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.​

The Open Theist has no certainty, no assurance, no anchor for their soul, no Rock upon which to rest or to base their faith, hope or love.

Bob Enyart disagrees with you, who says God CAN be evil if He wanted to. He could have just turned yesterday and completely changed His mind (repented) about letting people into heaven. What assurance do you have that He hasn't?

Then you DO believe God can be unrighteous if He wanted to, right?

The writer of Hebrews disagrees with you, and in fact, he attributes the full assurance and confidence of salvation upon God's inability to lie or to oppose His own decrees.

Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel (BOULE, God's deliberate intention and will), confirmed it by an oath: 18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible (ADUNATOS) for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; ...​

Note that the immutability is the basis, not for stripping God of His attribute as living (as Open Theists allege), but rather of the certitude and surety of the hope of salvation, calling it the anchor of the soul, sure and steadfast. What Deardelmar calls "entirely silly and unbiblical" the Bible calls the basis of strong consolation, the refuge upon which to base the believer's hope, the sure and stedfast anchor of the soul.

The writer of Hebrews says that God CANNOT lie or violate His decrees. ADUNATOS is the Greek word that means without the power or ability. The same word is used of a man who was crippled from birth. He was without the power or ability to walk (Ac 4:18, translated "impotent"). Open Theists disagree. They believe God has the power to lie and to oppose His own will if He wanted to. And for that reason, they have no rational surety, no steadfast confidence, no reason to believe they will ever actually be saved because that salvation depends on TWO MUTABLE THINGS: (1) their own fallible faith, and (2) the irrational hope that God won't repent of wanting to save them.



Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release!

Jim
I've said it before. You are a World Class twister of words.

 

[koban]

Jim
I've said it before. You are a World Class twister of words.

I'm not sure what game he's playing, but it's pretty evident that he doesn't want to be taken seriously.


Oh well, class clowns are welcome here too! :BRAVO:


Jimmy, go stand over in the corner with Letsargue and Squeaky now. That's a good boy!

 

[Hilston]

I've said it before. You are a World Class twister of words.

What have I twisted, Delmar? I'm taking words in their customary and/or theological usage. I'm taking your espoused claims and showing their logical conclusion. If you wish to engage in rational discourse, don't just assert. Show the readers how I've twisted the words. Or else offer a coherent rebuttal of my statements. Show me that my exegesis of the texts are in error.

Or you could just pull a Koban.

Why do you trust a God who could turn evil if He wanted to?

Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release!

 

[koban]

What have I twisted, Delmar? I'm taking words in their customary and/or theological usage. I'm taking your espoused claims and showing their logical conclusion. If you wish to engage in rational discourse, don't just assert. Show the readers how I've twisted the words. Or else offer a coherent rebuttal of my statements. Show me that my exegesis of the texts are in error.

Or you could just pull a Koban.

Why do you trust a God who could turn evil if He wanted to?

Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release!

:BRAVO:

You entering the Special Olympics this year, Jimmy?

 

[Delmar]

What have I twisted, Delmar? I'm taking words in their customary and/or theological usage. I'm taking your espoused claims and showing their logical conclusion. If you wish to engage in rational discourse, don't just assert. Show the readers how I've twisted the words. Or else offer a coherent rebuttal of my statements. Show me that my exegesis of the texts are in error.

Or you could just pull a Koban.

Why do you trust a God who could turn evil if He wanted to?

Jim
Hear Hilston's latest musical release!

Because of his righteous character, which I would have assumed to be the same reason you trust God not to turn evil.

 

[koban]

Because of his righteous character, which I would have assumed to be the same reason you trust God not to turn evil.

How would you know if God "turned evil". Isn't "evil" acting contrary to God's nature? Isn't God the definition of "goodness", regardless of His actions?