Theology Club: Tribulation Doctrine

[Tambora]

Any time after this moment in time. Does the BOC go to heaven and stay there or do they come back to earth new or old?

My view is that they will have access to both. But of course, not until after the rapture.

There are a few points of view to consider.
Some think we are included in the "saints" that Christ brings with Him, and others think those that He brings with Him are angels.
Since we actually become like angels, it could go either way.

2 Thessalonians 1 KJV
(7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,




Jude 1 KJV
(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Some think we are included in the "saints" that Christ brings with Him, and others think those that He brings with Him are angels.
Since we actually become like angels, it could go either way.

The saints who meet the Lord Jesus in the air will, from that point of time onward, always be with Him:

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:17).​

Therefore, since we will always be with the Lord Jesus when He returns to the earth to set up His earthly kingdom we will be with Him on the earth.

 

[achduke]

My view is that they will have access to both. But of course, not until after the rapture.

There are a few points of view to consider.
Some think we are included in the "saints" that Christ brings with Him, and others think those that He brings with Him are angels.
Since we actually become like angels, it could go either way.

2 Thessalonians 1 KJV
(7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,




Jude 1 KJV
(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,​

Does not Christ bring the 144,000 back with him?

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

Revelation 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

 

[glorydaz]

2 Thess 2

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


Not for us

Ah, so this is Paul warning about the coming tribulation...and why we need to understand that what is written about it is not for us. It's why you guys keep saying....."It's not for us." :thumb:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?​

 

[Tambora]

Does not Christ bring the 144,000 back with him?

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

Revelation 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

The 144,000 are of the 12 tribes of Israel.
That's not the BOC.

And just to throw another stick in the wheel .....
Kinda interesting that Christ is called Lamb in Rev 14:4, and not Lion.

Revelation 5 KJV
(5) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.​

I'm sure there is a good reason.

 

[achduke]

The 144,000 are of the 12 tribes of Israel.
That's not the BOC.

The 144,000 do appear to be Israel but they are also ten thousands of saints also. They are without fault before the throne of God. They are also considered first fruits like Christ and like younger Israel before young Israel turned away. How many times does Christ return with ten thousands of saints? Shouldn't the BOC be more than ten thousands and be more in the millions or even more?

Jeremiah 2:3 Israel was holy to the Lord,
the firstfruits of his harvest;
all who devoured her were held guilty,
and disaster overtook them,’ ”

Revelation 14:4-5
4These are they who were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

And just to throw another stick in the wheel .....
Kinda interesting that Christ is called Lamb in Rev 14:4, and not Lion.

Revelation 5 KJV
(5) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.​

I'm sure there is a good reason.

In Revelation 5 Christ is also called a lamb in the very next sentence. He is a Lion when opening the scroll that will bring tribulation and a lamb when being represented as slain.

Revelation 5:5-6
5And one of the elders said unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

 

[Tambora]

The 144,000 do appear to be Israel but they are also ten thousands of saints also. They are without fault before the throne of God. They are also considered first fruits like Christ and like younger Israel before young Israel turned away. How many times does Christ return with ten thousands of saints? Shouldn't the BOC be more than ten thousands and be more in the millions or even more?

Jeremiah 2:3 Israel was holy to the Lord,
the firstfruits of his harvest;
all who devoured her were held guilty,
and disaster overtook them,’ ”

Revelation 14:4-5
4These are they who were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.



In Revelation 5 Christ is also called a lamb in the very next sentence. He is a Lion when opening the scroll that will bring tribulation and a lamb when being represented as slain.

Revelation 5:5-6
5And one of the elders said unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

I might take exception to the highlighted part.
I lean toward the view that they are angels. But I'm open to discussion about it.

Revelation 5 KJV
(11) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;


Deuteronomy 33 KJV
(2) And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.


Psalms 68 KJV
(17) The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.


Acts 7 KJV
(53) Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.


Galatians 3 KJV
(19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

 

[achduke]

I might take exception to the highlighted part.
I lean toward the view that they are angels. But I'm open to discussion about it.

Ten thousand would be 10,000. Ten thousands is more then 10,000 but the less then millions which is described in other scripture as 10,000 times 10,0000. That is why I think Ten Thousands could be 144,000.

Revelation 5 KJV
(11) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

This appears to be over 100+ million.

Deuteronomy 33 KJV
(2) And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

More than 10,000+

Psalms 68 KJV
(17) The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

More than 20,000+

Acts 7 KJV
(53) Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Galatians 3 KJV
(19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

2 Thessalonians 1 KJV
(7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Jude 1 KJV
(14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,​

Why can not the saints and the angels both come back with the Lord?

We know for certain the angels are used for harvest.

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Ah, so this is Paul warning about the coming tribulation...and why we need to understand that what is written about it is not for us. It's why you guys keep saying....."It's not for us." :thumb:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?​

Yes, Paul letting us know that it is not for us...whereas Hebrews-Revelation is all about going through the Tribulation.

 

[Arsenios]

Yes, Paul letting us know that it is not for us...
whereas Hebrews-Revelation
is all about going through the Tribulation.

John 16:33 KJV
These things I have spoken unto you,
that in me ye might have peace.
In the world ye shall have tribulation:
but be of good cheer;
I have overcome the world.

Was John only speaking to the Jews?

A.

 

[Arsenios]

Why can not the saints and the angels
both come back with the Lord?

The completion of the harvest finishes the angels' work with the fallen...

The Saints with the Lord are One...
Life in the Age to Come...
Those who have co-suffered will co-reign with Him...

The Saints will then be higher than the angels...

The angels will be under their command...

A.

 

[musterion]

Just found this thread. One of the best ever, thank you for creating it. Please post more like it.

 

[Danoh]

Any time after this moment in time. Does the BOC go to heaven and stay there or do they come back to earth new or old?

I lightly touched on the answer to that in post #63 on the following link:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4460334#post4460334

You'll find a bit more about that in Romans 8.

But keep in mind that there are various understandings on some of these things within various Mid-Acts camps - it depends on the premise each arrive at in their studies, that they each then proceed to consider other things from.

I've noticed this kind of thing over the years.

Some will be simply dogmatic in their view; that theirs is the only one worth holding; emphasizing it to others, even as they ignore considering, or are even hostile to, where others are looking at things from.

What I have found over the years is that one can often learn much about one subject or another from all sorts of groups one may not normally agree on many subjects with.

This agreement will tend to find its place on its own where how two sides see a thing happens to agree at points along the way.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

the church (Body) formed during trib, do they rule with Christ on earth a thousand years ? who all lives with Christ at the New Jerusalem that descends; is that going to be the earthly kingdom ? for 1000 ?

do some go straight to heaven to be with God and bybass the earthy reign with Jesus Christ ?

i'm cornfused

PJ the Great :wave2:

Here is what I see. The little flock of early Acts and the rest that form the 144,000 inherit the New Jerusalem and reign with Christ from that City. The old testament saints are raised up to rule the earth, with David as their King. The Body of Christ is in heavenly places, we are the Lord's glory and trophies of his grace.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

John 16:33 KJV
These things I have spoken unto you,
that in me ye might have peace.
In the world ye shall have tribulation:
but be of good cheer;
I have overcome the world.

Was John only speaking to the Jews?

A.

There is a difference between general tribulation and "a time of trouble", and "the great tribulation".

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Just found this thread. One of the best ever, thank you for creating it. Please post more like it.

:e4e: Thanks musty.

When I read through Hebrews-Revelation, Daniel's 70th week jumps out at me, looking for the 2nd Coming. It is so clear to me.

 

[achduke]

PJ the Great :wave2:

Here is what I see. The little flock of early Acts and the rest that form the 144,000 inherit the New Jerusalem and reign with Christ from that City. The old testament saints are raised up to rule the earth, with David as their King. The Body of Christ is in heavenly places.

Where does it say the BoC is in heaven the whole time? Just wondering which scripture you reference?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Where does it say the BoC is in heaven the whole time? Just wondering which scripture you reference?

:e4e:

Eph 2
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

 

[achduke]

:e4e:

Eph 2
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

How does Revelation 21 come to pass where God and Christ reign from New Jerusalem which comes down from heaven? Is this not Christ reigning on earth?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

How does Revelation 21 come to pass where God and Christ reign from New Jerusalem which comes down from heaven? Is this not Christ reigning on earth?

I believe the City is between the earth and heaven, while touching the earth, allowing the saved of the nations to enter.