What a fair and honest debate on Israel/Palestinian conflict looks like

[Tinark]

A snippet, read the whole thing:

Judea and Samaria? You even change the names of our lands. It’s called the West Bank. Palestine’s issue is not with Jews, but with your occupation. If the illegal Jewish settlers in the West Bank were prepared to accept the authority of our government, we could easily grant them Palestinian citizenship just as you have done with Israeli Arabs. The reason you cannot “trust us” with them is because they refuse to accept the legal writ of the Palestinian Authority. They are religiously driven fanatics who believe in Greater Israel. How would you feel if Israeli Arab Muslim fanatics refused to accept your writ deep inside Israel? Of course there would be tension. Instead, those Arabs have integrated relatively well there, though with room for improvement.

Yes, Israeli Arabs have integrated relatively well. Though I suspect that’s as much to do with us as it is them. Both sides deserve credit for that, don’t you think? I should return later to your statement that Palestinians don’t have a problem with Jews per se. But on the intransigence of these settlers you may have a point. They can be incredibly stubborn. But if you ask those settlers to accept your writ, why do you continue to not recognize Israel? It’s the same UN you refer to that grants you, and us, this same right to exist. You cannot have it both ways. Look, Egypt struck a deal with us and we returned the Sinai. We have been at peace ever since.

Occupiers get to make no demands, why don’t you just withdraw, and we’ll recognize you?

But we tried that in Gaza in 2005, and you kept firing rockets at our villages, deliberately trying to kill our civilians. Withdrawal from the West Bank is even more dangerous because in Jerusalem we live side by side.

Withdrawal from Gaza? You “withdrew” from Gaza yet failed to recognize our democratically elected government there. Then you imposed a blockade around our sea, and controlled what our population has access to via land. Gaza is nothing more than an incredibly dense prison camp. What choice do the people of Gaza have but to continue the resistance?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ael-palestine.html?via=desktop&source=twitter

Unfortunately, you can pretty much count on this response:

 

[Desert Reign]

I just don't buy it. It sounds great of course. However, a debate which presumes that both sides are equally to blame and that a discussion which assumes this is the right kind of discussion, is just as biased as any other.
But the local Muslims rejected Israel's right to exist in 1947, when they would have had a far better deal than any 2-state option on the table today.
Other Arab nations also rejected any status quo and fuelled the so called refugee problem by not accepting Palestinian refugees into their countries even though there was a great deal of space and money for them to do it. By contrast, Israel absorbed half a million Jewish refugees from Arab countries who had been forcibly evicted in spite after the 1948 war but Arab countries kept the Arab refugees from the war in camps deliberately so as to be a thorn in the side of Israel.
In 1967, neighbouring Muslim nations also did not accept Israel's right to exist and were about to invade, were it not for Israel's pre-emptive strike.
In 1964, the West Bank was a part of Jordan and Gaza was a part of Egypt. When the PLO was formed in 1964 its goals made no reference to liberating the West Bank. Its only goal was to 'push Jews into the sea'. This goal is part of the stated aims of the modern PA, despite them having agreed at Oslo to recognise the state of Irael.
There never was a state called Palestine.
Arab nations could solve the problem overnight. But they won't because they hate Israel and they hate Jews.
Arabs within Israel live comfortably and peacefully. Jews in the West Bank live under constant threat of knifings, shootings and violence.
The PA under Arafat and then under Abbas have been offered numerous 2-state solutions, some of which have been very sacrificial from Israel's point of view. But they have never accepted any of them. Each time they got anywhere near to a solution they started an intifada or raised some other pretext.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 in the hope that this would bring peace but all they got was thousands of rockets fired at civilian areas. The stated aim of Hamas, who rule Gaza, is to destroy Israel.
There is only one problem in Israel/West Bank today and it is not Israel or the Jews living in it.

 

[Lexington'96]

I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself. I do not think they are above criticism, however.

 

[Bradley D]

The Palestinians are always firing the first shot. Then the world blames Israel for firing back.

 

[patrick jane]

The Palestinians are always firing the first shot. Then the world blames Israel for firing back.

Seemingly. Only seemingly

 

[Tinark]

The Palestinians are always firing the first shot. Then the world blames Israel for firing back.

You are falling into the same trap of the cartoon. The people who fire the shots are not always the same people who get fired back upon (bombs dropped from planes do not discriminate between the shooters and the innocent bystanders). You support guilt by association. Additionally, after living in prison conditions enforced by Israel for a number of years yet having committed no crime, it isn't surprising that you might try to fire a few shots at your captors every now and then. The prison conditions themselves are the result of a group of Palestinian thugs in the past who killed innocents which by no means makes up the entire population, yet the entire population suffers from a minority of thugs.

It's the never ending cycle of violence that people like you enable.

 

[Tinark]

I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself. I do not think they are above criticism, however.

There is a fine line between defense and punishment/revenge. Israel too often crosses that line. That doesn't excuse the minority of Palestinians that create a situation where Israel needs to defend itself. That is why neither side is innocent in this ordeal.

 

[Tinark]

I just don't buy it. It sounds great of course. However, a debate which presumes that both sides are equally to blame and that a discussion which assumes this is the right kind of discussion, is just as biased as any other.
But the local Muslims rejected Israel's right to exist in 1947, when they would have had a far better deal than any 2-state option on the table today.
Other Arab nations also rejected any status quo and fuelled the so called refugee problem by not accepting Palestinian refugees into their countries even though there was a great deal of space and money for them to do it. By contrast, Israel absorbed half a million refugees from Arab countries who had been evicted in spite after the 1948 war but Arab countries kept the Arab refugees from the war in camps deliberately so as to be a thorn in the side of Israel.
In 1967, neighbouring Muslim nations also did not accept Israel's right to exist and were about to invade, were it not for Israel's pre-emptive strike.
In 1964, the West Bank was a part of Jordan and Gaza was a part of Egypt. When the PLO was formed in 1964 its goals made no reference to liberating the West Bank. Its only goal was to 'push Jews into the sea'. This goal is part of the stated aims of the modern PA, despite them having agreed at Oslo to recognise the state of Irael.
There never was a state called Palestine.
Arab nations could solve the problem overnight. But they won't because they hate Israel and they hate Jews.
Arabs within Israel live comfortably and peacefully. Jews in the West Bank live under constant threat of knifings, shootings and violence.
The PA under Arafat and then under Abbas have been offered numerous 2-state solutions, some of which have been very sacrificial from Israel's point of view. But they have never accepted any of them. Each time they got anywhere near to a solution they started an intifida or raised some other pretext.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 in the hope that this would bring peace but all they got was thousands of rockets fired at civilian areas. The stated aim of Hamas, who rule Gaza, is to destroy Israel.
There is only one problem in Israel/West Bank today and it is not Israel or the Jews living in it.

You are falling into the trap of guilt by association. Because there are a minority of Palestinian thugs and terrorists who kill innocents and shoot rockets at Israel and want to destroy it, it is therefore ok to punish all of them by creating prison camp conditions and engaging in extreme retaliatory measures against all of them when the criminal element wrongs Israel.

 

[Desert Reign]

You are falling into the trap of guilt by association. Because there are a minority of Palestinian thugs and terrorists who kill innocents and shoot rockets at Israel and want to destroy it, it is therefore ok to punish all of them by creating prison camp conditions and engaging in extreme retaliatory measures against all of them when the criminal element wrongs Israel.

So it seems your idea of a fair discussion is one which ends up blaming Israel?

Regardless of the facts.
Which are that Israel left Gaza in 2005 only to be greeted by a barrage of rockets on their towns and villages.
Which are that the entire people of Gaza freely voted for a government by Hamas, which is an organisation explicitly - in its own charter - dedicated to the overthrow and destruction of Israel and Jews everywhere.
They voted for this. Democracy. Or did that fact not enter into your thoughts on the subject?

Regardless of the fact that Gazans educate their children to hate Israel. All of them.

Nope. It is you who are falling into the trap of ignoring the facts. Of inventing the facts. You have invented the idea that those who throw rockets at Israel are a small unrepresentative minority. YOU INVENTED THIS. You failed to check your facts.

You are also falling into the trap of letting the guilty go unpunished because a few might not be guilty. You let evil run riot. You do nothing while people suffer. You want to blame someone to soothe your conscience so you blame Israel.

You are the one who falls into a trap.

Lastly, you are falling into another insidious trap. The judgementalism trap. This is apparent from your insistence on guilt by asociation. No one is saying that anyone is guilty of anything here. No one is punishing anyone for anything here. Israel are not punishing Gazans or Palestinians. Israel are acting in self-defence. It is that simple. You would deny them the right to self defence by turning it into a moral issue. It may be a moral issue but as nations go, Israel is in the business of its own survival. Your making it a moral issue and talking of guilt is nothing other than anti-semitism at its most subtle. Britain is allowed to protect itself by controlling its borders and evicting undesirables but Israel isn't, in case it affects a few Gazans who didn't vote for Hamas; America is allowed to protect its own interests by starting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq but Israel isn't allowed to in case it offends a few Palestinians. America is allowed to bomb Isis or the Taliban even though this always involves civilian casualties and not just a few but many. But Israel isn't allowed to do this because it implies 'guilt by association'. The PA president Abbas is allowed to call Jews filthy but Israel is not allowed to do anything about it in case it offends an innocent Muslim.

It's sick.

 

[Lexington'96]

There is a fine line between defense and punishment/revenge. Israel too often crosses that line. That doesn't excuse the minority of Palestinians that create a situation where Israel needs to defend itself. That is why neither side is innocent in this ordeal.

I agree with that. I think that assigning all of the blame to one side is problematic. I am strongly opposed to the construction of new settlements in the West Bank. However, I also have no respect for organizations like Hamas.

 

[Bradley D]

You are falling into the same trap of the cartoon. The people who fire the shots are not always the same people who get fired back upon (bombs dropped from planes do not discriminate between the shooters and the innocent bystanders). You support guilt by association. Additionally, after living in prison conditions enforced by Israel for a number of years yet having committed no crime, it isn't surprising that you might try to fire a few shots at your captors every now and then. The prison conditions themselves are the result of a group of Palestinian thugs in the past who killed innocents which by no means makes up the entire population, yet the entire population suffers from a minority of thugs.

It's the never ending cycle of violence that people like you enable.

Excuses. This latest wave of violence was started by lies. Where were the previous Palestinian missiles aimed at? I do not believe they care much where they land as long as they hit Israelites. Killing a 70 year lady trying to get on a bus is cowardice. And how do I enable the violence. By not telling the Israelites that they should just sit back and let their citizens be murdered?

 

[glorydaz]

So it seems your idea of a fair discussion is one which ends up blaming Israel?

Regardless of the facts.
Which are that Israel left Gaza in 2005 only to be greeted by a barrage of rockets on their towns and villages.
Which are that the entire people of Gaza freely voted for a government by Hamas, which is an organisation explicitly - in its own charter - dedicated to the overthrow and destruction of Israel and Jews everywhere.
They voted for this. Democracy. Or did that fact not enter into your thoughts on the subject?

Regardless of the fact that Gazans educate their children to hate Israel. All of them.

Nope. It is you who are falling into the trap of ignoring the facts. Of inventing the facts. You have invented the idea that those who throw rockets at Israel are a small unrepresentative minority. YOU INVENTED THIS. You failed to check your facts.

You are also falling into the trap of letting the guilty go unpunished because a few might not be guilty. You let evil run riot. You do nothing while people suffer. You want to blame someone to soothe your conscience so you blame Israel.

You are the one who falls into a trap.

Lastly, you are falling into another insidious trap. The judgementalism trap. This is apparent from your insistence on guilt by asociation. No one is saying that anyone is guilty of anything here. No one is punishing anyone for anything here. Israel are not punishing Gazans or Palestinians. Israel are acting in self-defence. It is that simple. You would deny them the right to self defence by turning it into a moral issue. It may be a moral issue but as nations go, Israel is in the business of its own survival. Your making it a moral issue and talking of guilt is nothing other than anti-semitism at its most subtle. Britain is allowed to protect itself by controlling its borders and evicting undesirables but Israel isn't, in case it affects a few Gazans who didn't vote for Hamas; America is allowed to protect its own interests by starting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq but Israel isn't allowed to in case it offends a few Palestinians. America is allowed to bomb Isis or the Taliban even though this always involves civilian casualties and not just a few but many. But Israel isn't allowed to do this because it implies 'guilt by association'. The PA president Abbas is allowed to call Jews filthy but Israel is not allowed to do anything about it in case it offends an innocent Muslim.

It's sick. And you are sick.

:first: