What is death? What is resurrection? And why do we care?

[oatmeal]

Thanks oatmeal. I agree, but I still wonder if there's a "life" that doesn't require a body. Certainly there are some creatures that are spirit (angels), and God is spirit. Neither seem to have physical bodies nor are they bound to physical things. Is it possible that men also have a spiritual side that remains after death?

If not, why not?

First a more basic question that we must really give serious thought to

Does God know what He is talking about?

Or more precisely, is God's word accurate? That is, God's written word, the scriptures, are they truly as perfect as the author is perfect?

Of course, I am not talking about versions or translations or the texts, for it is clear that no version perfectly conveys all that God authored. no translation does that either, and the texts though are only source, are not perfect copies, there are different wordings in the texts

I am referring to the original word of God, as holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, II Peter 1:21

Then we must ask, is God's vocabulary complete and perfect? Does God say camel, but really mean rabbit? Does God say sin but really mean holiness?

Does God say light but really mean darkness?

Does God say death but really mean life?



Death is the absence of life. If there is life, then there is life, not death

 

[God's Truth]

I suppose that a lesser and greater punishment could be effected even in the lake of fire, but it doesn't seem like it to me.

But I'm not too convinced about the lesser and greater punishments before the final one. It makes it sound like the punishments are dispensed prior to the judgment. Are there now multiple judgment times? One after physical death, and one after the second resurrection? If not, how are punishments determined for the lesser and greater punishments?

There is scripture about Jesus coming back and then punishing the wrongful servant. Obviously in that parable, the servant had not yet died. So then, for sure we can say that when Jesus comes back and one is still living that servant will face punishment according to how much was given him in life and the one not knowing as much, or given as much will suffer fewer punishment.

So now what about those who die before Jesus comes? Does one suffer some sort of punishment before their spirit goes to heaven to be with Jesus? That is where scriptures don't give much information. There could be different holdings in prison/Hell. Could that be a place of punishment? It would seem that prison could very well be the place for punishment to happen. However, we are told that angels carry the saved to Christ. So how then is one given greater and lesser punishment and how and where besides the obvious when Jesus comes again.

I think we all would be happy with a sliding punishment scale, to take into account people like Hitler and Stalin and their deeds. But these verses seem to indicate something different:
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: [Mar 3:28-29 KJV]

Mark makes it look like everything will be forgiven. Matthew is slightly different, talking about the types of sins rather than the number of them, making it look more like a contingent thing:
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come. [Mat 12:31-32 KJV]

What does it mean to have ones sins forgiven? The following seems to say that it looks like healing. So resurrection may be a sign of sins being forgiven:
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. [Mar 2:9-11 KJV]

Right; the resurrection is going to be for those being raised to eternal life, and for those who are raised to eternal condemnation. We know from the scriptures that not all will repent, and therefore not be saved. We also know that when Jesus comes it will be too late to repent when he comes again. So that is why we who are saved are warned so strongly to not be caught unclothed. That means to not be caught in sin, for Jesus comes as a thief in the night and will not come to bear sin.
We are saved by Jesus bearing our sin and live our lives being transformed into his image.

We all will go through the fire at the end, and maybe that is the only time and place for greater and fewer punishments. However, angels taking one to the Lord does not give room for a punishment, or could it? This is a very serious and deep discussion and maybe more troublesome for those who aren't living the life of the Spirit that they should be, or for those who worry about people who never really found the Lord and have passed away.

 

[God's Truth]

Then show me the scripture that supports your statments

Acts 17:11

If you are right anyone should be able to read it for themselves

I see that you do not know the scriptures well enough, and I am glad you asked for them.

There were those who disobeyed and died before Jesus came to earth, though they were dead their spirits went to a prison, unlike the spirits of the righteous. After Jesus was crucified, he preached to those who were dead, he preached to the spirits in prison, the spirits of those who had died and disobeyed long ago (see 1 Peter 3:18-19). Those people who disobeyed and died before learning of Jesus...Jesus preached the gospel to them, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6). For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God, even those who lived and died before Jesus.

Jesus told Peter about the gates of Hell not over coming the church. The church is the body of Christ. Gates of Hell keep people in Hell, but the gates of Hell could not keep Jesus there.

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

 

[God's Truth]

There are 2 deaths and 2 Resurrections.

1st death is when we die in this life and go to Heaven or Hell.

2nd death is at the end of the Millennial reign after the great white throne judgement when non-Christians etc are sent to the lake of fire.

1st Resurrection is for the 144,000 to reign with Christ during the Millennial reign.

2nd Resurrection is for the Great Multitude at the end of the Millennial reign who will live on the new Earth and in Heaven.

What you said at the end there couldn't be true because the scriptures say those in the first resurrection are the ones who will not be part of the second death.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

What you said at the end there couldn't be true because the scriptures say those in the first resurrection are the ones who will not be part of the second death.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

That's right they won't. The 144,000 reign with Jesus for 1000 years and do not face the 2nd death.

 

[jamie]

Thanks oatmeal. I agree, but I still wonder if there's a "life" that doesn't require a body. Certainly there are some creatures that are spirit (angels), and God is spirit. Neither seem to have physical bodies nor are they bound to physical things. Is it possible that men also have a spiritual side that remains after death?

"But someone will say, 'How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?' Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies." (1 Corinthians 15:35-36)

"It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:44)

 

[Derf]

"But someone will say, 'How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?' Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies." (1 Corinthians 15:35-36)

"It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:44)

These are good verses, Jamie. But since it seems to be talking about the resurrection, and Job thought he would be resurrected in the flesh, doesn't that mean the "spiritual" bodies have a flesh component?

Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[jamie]

These are good verses, Jamie. But since it seems to be talking about the resurrection, and Job thought he would be resurrected in the flesh, doesn't that mean the "spiritual" bodies have a flesh component?

The Bible refers to two realms or what we might call dimensions.

There is a physical dimension and there is a spiritual dimension.

The spiritual dimension is referred to as heaven, a higher dimension.

Jesus was born again, not of flesh he had already been born of flesh.

Jesus was born again with a spiritual or heavenly body.

Paul explained, "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Corinthians 15:50)

Jesus is the firstborn of the kingdom. He was born of water and he was born of the Spirit.

Jesus has an incorruptible, immortal, invisible body.

The heavenly body is invisible.

"And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man." (1 Corinthians 15:49)

Since heavenly beings cannot be seen with physical eyes heavenly beings must appear physically.

Jesus ate broiled fish with his human disciples. (Luke 24:42-43)

Jesus will appear to the world. (Matthew 24:30)

Job will be able to manifest himself as a fleshly being.

 

[Derf]

The Bible refers to two realms or what we might call dimensions.

There is a physical dimension and there is a spiritual dimension.

The spiritual dimension is referred to as heaven, a higher dimension.

These seem to be speculations.
The bible talks about heaven and earth, but it describes heaven as the sky, which seems to include space above our atmosphere. And Paul said he was taken up into the third heaven. So perhaps you are talking about the third heaven. It is interesting that Paul said he was taken UP. and Jesus ASCENDED. The third heaven must be ABOVE.

Jesus was born again, not of flesh he had already been born of flesh.

Jesus was born again with a spiritual or heavenly body.

Was He born again? Or was He resurrected? If the latter, then His body was reused, and somehow changed. If His body was not reused and changed, then His body would still be in the ground. But one of the evidences of our hope for resurrection is that Jesus body did not remain in the ground--and our hope is that ours won't either. Which makes me wonder if the idea of a spiritual existence is not a full enough picture of our existence with Christ.

Paul explained, "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Corinthians 15:50)

We will put on incorruption, 1 Cor 15:53, and what is mortal will put on immortality. The thing that gets immortality is the thing that was once mortal, not something else that was already immortal.

Jesus is the firstborn of the kingdom. He was born of water and he was born of the Spirit.

Jesus has an incorruptible, immortal, invisible body.

Jesus had a visible body. One that could be touched. It was scarred from His crucifixion. Are you saying that was merely a temporary manifestation?

The heavenly body is invisible.

"And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man." (1 Corinthians 15:49)

What/who is "the heavenly Man"? Isn't it Jesus Christ? And He had a visible body.

Since heavenly beings cannot be seen with physical eyes heavenly beings must appear physically.

Did Jesus use His resurrected eyes? Did Jesus not eat with His resurrected body? His body, which He was in before He died, is the same one He was in after He rose. It was changed, but the same body. Otherwise showing His disciples His nail scars in His hands and the spear wound in His side was a charade.

And if Jesus' body was NOT raised, then neither will ours be raised, and thus we won't be resurrected. Our hope is that we will be resurrected, and if Jesus was not raised, then neither will we be.

Jesus ate broiled fish with his human disciples. (Luke 24:42-43)

Jesus will appear to the world. (Matthew 24:30)

Job will be able to manifest himself as a fleshly being.

Maybe Job will be visible. Jesus was visible until He disappeared from view as He went up into a cloud--not because He became invisible in body, but He was no longer in their view, thus "invisible", if you want.

 

[jamie]

Jesus was visible until He disappeared from view as He went up into a cloud--not because He became invisible in body

Yeah, you're probably right.

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible..." (1 Timothy 1:17)

You can argue with someone else, I'm out.

 

[God's Truth]

That's right they won't. The 144,000 reign with Jesus for 1000 years and do not face the 2nd death.

The 144,000 are about Jews. Not only Jews are going to rule with Jesus. Saved Gentiles will rule too.

 

[Derf]

Yeah, you're probably right.

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible..." (1 Timothy 1:17)

You can argue with someone else, I'm out.

Wow. Are you leaving TOL?

 

[Derf]

First a more basic question that we must really give serious thought to

Does God know what He is talking about?

Or more precisely, is God's word accurate? That is, God's written word, the scriptures, are they truly as perfect as the author is perfect?

Of course, I am not talking about versions or translations or the texts, for it is clear that no version perfectly conveys all that God authored. no translation does that either, and the texts though are only source, are not perfect copies, there are different wordings in the texts

I am referring to the original word of God, as holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, II Peter 1:21

Then we must ask, is God's vocabulary complete and perfect? Does God say camel, but really mean rabbit? Does God say sin but really mean holiness?

Does God say light but really mean darkness?

Does God say death but really mean life?



Death is the absence of life. If there is life, then there is life, not death

Your questions are good ones, but some are hard to answer. I expect we could trust the original word of God, but it's hard to know what it is without trusting, to some degree, those texts and translations. I expect we can trust those fairly well, and thus we can have these conversations.

In regard to your assurance that death is the absence of life, can the absence of something be thrown? [Rev 20:14 KJV] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Perhaps these words are pictorial--giving us an image of death being completely destroyed. I'm ok with that, but it brings up an issue. First, I think you would say that all those that were dead before, that hadn't been resurrected already, were resurrected, right? Else John wouldn't have seen the small and great STANDING before God, right?

So then, if they were dead, and then were resurrected, and then are thrown into the lake of fire, are they dead again after that? Are they dead in the same way--in an "absence of life" kind of way?

If so, why were they resurrected? Was it for judgment, to determine if they should die? Remember that they were already dead, and thus had been judged worthy of death once before.

So if they are judged worthy of death once more, does it seem to you that they are being punished twice for the same crime/sins? Or do you think this judgment is one that is about something else?

 

[Derf]

There are 2 deaths and 2 Resurrections.

1st death is when we die in this life and go to Heaven or Hell.

2nd death is at the end of the Millennial reign after the great white throne judgement when non-Christians etc are sent to the lake of fire.

1st Resurrection is for the 144,000 to reign with Christ during the Millennial reign.

2nd Resurrection is for the Great Multitude at the end of the Millennial reign who will live on the new Earth and in Heaven.

So you don't count "hell" as the same as "lake of fire". In what form do you think we go to heaven or hell after the first death?

What do you think happens at the second resurrection? Are spirits reunited with bodies just to be thrown into the lake of fire? Why do you think this would be necessary.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

The 144,000 are about Jews. Not only Jews are going to rule with Jesus. Saved Gentiles will rule too.

You are quite right but that's what a surface reading of the texts says but when put into context you are right. Please watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGhGk9LYuUE

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

So you don't count "hell" as the same as "lake of fire". In what form do you think we go to heaven or hell after the first death?

What do you think happens at the second resurrection? Are spirits reunited with bodies just to be thrown into the lake of fire? Why do you think this would be necessary.

Hell is a separate place from the lake of fire.

When we die in this life (the first death) we go to Heaven or Hell as a spirit (in our spirit bodies).

At the two resurrections only those going to Heaven will receive their resurrected bodies, those going to Hell will not.

1st Resurrection is for the 144,000 to reign with Christ during the Millennial reign.

2nd Resurrection is for the Great Multitude at the end of the Millennial reign who will live on the new Earth and in Heaven.

Matthew 22
29Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’b ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.

'But about the resurrection of the dead' = For those going to Heaven after their first death.

'He is not the God of the dead but of the living.' = He is not the God of those who enter the second death (the lake of fire). But He is the God of the Living Resurrected Christians.

 

[jamie]

Wow. Are you leaving TOL?

No, but what is the point of arguing with a closed mind?

 

[God's Truth]

You are quite right but that's what a surface reading of the texts says but when put into context you are right. Please watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGhGk9LYuUE

No, I don't go off to links. State your case here.

 

[Derf]

No, but what is the point of arguing with a closed mind?

I was hoping your mind wasn't so closed, I guess.

Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

No, I don't go off to links. State your case here.

Why don't you study things on the internet? It's the largest knowledge resource in History all at your fingertips, (a miracle from God). What limited resource do you use? Even the largest library in the world in Washington is a drop in the ocean compared to the internet and a million times slower.