Theology Club: What is Open Theism?

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And you wold be wrong.

Were you not paying attention when we went over this with Lon?

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94431
Your poll is too abstract. Why not confine yourself to what God has already revealed, Scripture. Then from Scripture ask the question I have asked that are about specific instances from Scripture. That is the real issue here, not some philosophical hand-waving. What does a proper hermeneutic of the passages I have cited earlier lead to for an answer? Revise your poll with a specific Scripture reference, one of the "I wll go down now" passages, and see what answers you get.

Unfortunately, however, open theism is too philosopically based upon Aristotle for you to avoid it, however. ;)

AMR <---see this
 

godrulz

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Haha...Open Theists think Calvinism is too philosophical and based on Plato, Augustine, Aquinas, etc. (all philosophical, not just biblical).

Every view has philosophical influences. Godly philosophy is not the same as pagan philosophy.

You are either ignorant or not honest. I imagine you should know this learned one.
 

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Haha...Open Theists think Calvinism is too philosophical and based on Plato, Augustine, Aquinas, etc. (all philosophical, not just biblical).

Every view has philosophical influences. Godly philosophy is not the same as pagan philosophy.

You are either ignorant or not honest. I imagine you should know this learned one.
Read the link. I think Ron Nash is quite qualified to speak on the matter. The openists need to recognize that their frequent stone throwing of "Greeks!" "Philosophy!" is coming from a very glass house.

I have been pointing it out around here for many years, too:

Spoiler

(Orginally posted on TOL in a thread that has since been deleted)

[FONT=&quot]Open theists frequently like to use historical arguments in attempts to undermine classical theism, arguing that classical theism depends upon Greek philosophical traditions that have somehow undermined what only the open theist thinks about the doctrine of God they have crafted.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This is what is so ironic about Open Theism, in that open theism decries the supposed influence of the Greeks, yet builds its theology atop the same philosophies, such as the assumed, but never proven, open theist philosophical assumption that determination erases relationship.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Open theist Pinnock states that Augustine allowed neo-Platonic ideas to influence his interpretation that put God in “a kind of box” (see Pinnock’s Most Moved Mover). Boyd writes that classical theism became misguided “under the influence of Hellenic philosophy” (see Boyd’s The God of the Possible). Finally, Sanders writes that “Greek thought” and “neo-Platonic metaphysics” were a significant influence on the classical doctrine of God (see Sanders’ The Openness of God). Sanders even lumps Luther and Calvin into the camp of neo-Platonic influence that continues to “dominate conservative theology”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thus, with a few swipes at the Greeks and the reformers, the doctrines of God’s immutability, impassibility, and timelessness are declared paganism by the open theist trinity of Pinnock, Boyd, and Sanders (PBS). Unfortunately, a good deal of those outside of any serious theological forum making these same claims have not spent any significant time studying theological history or philosophy. Instead they merely parrot what they have seen elsewhere (in the texts of PBS) as if saying something more shrilly and loudly will make it so.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Yet, in the next breath open theist Sanders writes that, “Philosophical theology can lend clarity to concepts about the divine nature of providence that can be useful to biblical scholars” (See Sanders’ The God Who Risks). In fact, the Greeks, Epicurus, and his follower, Lucretius, spent lots of time dealing with the kind of freedom open theist would like to claim--libertarian free will. This tells me open theists clearly don’t appreciate the Aristotelian influence on the limited divine foreknowledge open theism claims. Aristotle’s views on the truth-value of future-tense statements is the philosophical basis for the open theist's views of God’s omniscience (see De Interpretatione, Ch. 9).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But, what of these claims? A closer look reveals something very different.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]No one will dispute that the early Church theologians read the Greek philosopher’s and even used Greek terms to communicate biblical truths efficiently to their generation. What is significantly overlooked by open theists is that these early church theologians transformed the meanings and contents of the terms they used so as to be faithful to the truths of Scripture. I’ll say more about this below, but for those seeking to truly learn about the doctrines of God and Greek thought, see John Piper’s Beyond the Bounds, Gerald Bray’s The Personal God, and Millard Erickson’s God the Father Almighty: A Contemporary Exploration of the Divine Attributes. Moreover, rabbinic authorities confirm that the attributes of God in Judaism have been developed from the bible and not Greek thought. See D.G. Montefiore’s A Rabbinic Anthology.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Orthodox Christian doctrine history also denies the notion of open theists that classical theism is a pagan mixture. Even Boyd writes that the history of orthodox Christian doctrine has always been on the side of classical theism, concluding “I must concede that the open view has been relatively rare in church history” (see The God of the Possible, pg. 115). Such a perspective is in keeping with the Church fathers, Luther, Calvin, Melancthon, the Puritans, as well as Spurgeon, Edwards, and Hodge, all of whom confirmed the classical doctrine as God’s deposited truth.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As noted above, some open theists will trot out their barbs about Augustine’s or Aquinas’ influence by the Greeks in the development of theology. That is about the extent of what they can say, since very few have studied these theologians or Greek philosophers carefully and formally. There is no disputing that Augustine owed much to Platonic thinking. In fact, it was his studies of Plato and Plotinus that led Augustine to his conversion to Christianity. The more Augustine read these thinkers the more Augustine realized that the whole of Greek thought had to be recast within the light of the Scriptures.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Likewise, Aquinas spent much of his free time in 1268 and the next five years writing commentaries about Aristotle. These were not the task of a Dominican theologian, which he was at the time (in Paris), and they were not written to twist the texts of Aristotle into a Christian purpose. It was afterwards, when Aquinas had more fully developed understandings of the Greeks, that he began composing his “errors of Aristotle”. Few persons who have not formally studied Aquinas realize that in all his thinking, Aquinas held to the intellectual policy that a genuine conflict between what the human mind can know and the truths of the Christian faith can never arise. There are many seeming conflicts, as Aquinas’ “errors of Aristotle” plainly showed.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The fact is that the open theist's charges against classical theism are not new. In fact they are a repetition of liberal theology. Open theists are parroting the liberal theologians of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. These claims originated in nineteenth century Germany, and were connected to Ferdinand Christian Baur (1869) and August Neander (1850). They were picked up later by Albrecht Ritschl (1889). The exposition of these claims that resurrected them all over again came from Alfred (Adolph) von Harnack (1930) published as “What is Christianity?” Walter Bauer (1960) further developed Harnack’s thesis.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]For example, open theists will frequently mock the classical theist’s doctrine of the immutability of God as being wholly derived from the Greeks. But what is the real truth of the matter? In Greek thought immutability of “god” meant not only unchangeability but also the ability to be affected by anything in any way, i.e., the unmoved mover. The Greek word for this primary characteristic of “god” was apatheia, from which we get our word “apathy”. Apathy means indifference, but the Greek term goes far beyond that idea. It means the inability to feel any emotion whatsoever. The Greeks believed “god” possessed this quality because we would otherwise have power over him to the degree that we could move him to anger or joy or grief. He would cease to be absolute and sovereign. Thus the “god” of the philosophers was lonely, isolated, and compassionless. This all makes for good, logical, philosophy, but it is not what God reveals about Himself in the Scriptures and classical theists categorically reject it.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So, if these arguments by open theists are not new, then what are they really about? I will let Pinnock describe the motivation by open theists to claim ancient thoughts have polluted classical theism:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Modern culture can actually assist us in this task because the contemporary horizon is more congenial to dynamic thinking about God than is the Greek portrait. Today it is easier to invite people to find fulfillment in a dynamic, personal God than it would be to ask them to find it in a deity who is immutable and self-enclosed. Modern thinking has more room for a God who is personal (even tripersonal) than it does for a God as absolute substance. We ought to be grateful for those features of modern culture, which make it easier to recover the biblical witness.”

[FONT=&quot]“We are making peace with the culture of modernity.” (The Openness of God. 107) {emphasis mine}[/FONT]​
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]In Pinnock we see the real motivation of open theism: mixing a theological system with contemporary culture which appeals to our modern world. After all, ours is a world nowadays that needs a feel-good God in its culture of egalitarianism, extravagance, and self-absorption. Philosophical humanism, liberalism, and modernism packaged up in the guise of a supposed enlightened re-thinking of the doctrine of God.[/FONT]


AMR
 

Lighthouse

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Your poll is too abstract. Why not confine yourself to what God has already revealed, Scripture. Then from Scripture ask the question I have asked that are about specific instances from Scripture. That is the real issue here, not some philosophical hand-waving. What does a proper hermeneutic of the passages I have cited earlier lead to for an answer? Revise your poll with a specific Scripture reference, one of the "I wll go down now" passages, and see what answers you get.

Unfortunately, however, open theism is too philosopically based upon Aristotle for you to avoid it, however. ;)

AMR <---see this
I already know what answers I will get because I've discussed this specific issue even concerning those specific verses.

And I left out the specific verses because the answer is a general one, making specific examples in the initial question unnecessary.

I thought you were smarter than this.

And the poll can't be revised once it is posted. The most I could do is edit the OP with specific verses.

But if you really cared and weren't just a blowhard you would ask the specific people in question yourself with the verses you want.

And there is nothing abstract about the questions the way I posed them. And godrulz saying they could be misconstrued only means that he's too stupid to understand plain English. But I think we all knew that.
 

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And I left out the specific verses because the answer is a general one, making specific examples in the initial question unnecessary.

I thought you were smarter than this.
I am, brother, at least smart enough to know you cannot generalize everything in Scripture, especially when it comes to our transcendent God's "lisping" to His finite creatures.

“For who even of slight intelligence does not understand that, as nurses commonly do with infants, God is wont in measure to ‘lisp’ in speaking to us? Thus such forms of speaking do not so much express clearly what God is like as accomodate the knowledge of him to our slight capacity. To do this he must descend far beneath his loftiness”
(Calvin, Institutes, Book 1, Chapter 13, Section 1).
In other words, God accommodates Himself to our finitude such that we can relate in some sense to Him. We know God has no mouth or arms or ears, etc., yet we find these sort of things in Scripture as it helps us get a sense of our Almighty God. Of course, that "sense" we get is related to the context wherein we find these sort of lisping speech, so abstract generalizations you are seeking may be helpful, but they are not absolute lines in the sand. So what is wrong with picking a specific passage and asking for opinions? Why are you resisting so much? It is odd and makes one wonder if you have something to worry about. Just sayin'.

For example, when we read God saying "It never entered my mind that...", do you really think God was caught off guard about something He is only just learning? Or, better, do you recognize this is an accommodation to how we express the same sentiments when we are taken aback by something, then we say "Well, I never!" with indignation. See the difference? Very important to come to grips with this sort of style in Scripture or you end up off in the weeds with some very peculiar views of God's nature. Open theists have a pathological aversion to any anthropopathisms in Scripture as much of their root views hinge on these passages. But don't let that become a filter through which you run everything you read in the Bible.

AMR
 
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Lighthouse

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I am, brother, at least smart enough to know you cannot generalize everything in Scripture, especially when it comes to our transcendent God's "lisping" to His finite creatures.
While all I mentioned agree that God knows that which is knowable that He chooses to know, and thus He was being completely honest in regard to Sodom and Gomorrah and with Abraham and Isaac [re: the sacrifice] it is still possible He was testing Adam in the immediate aftermath of the first disobedience.

“For who even of slight intelligence does not understand that, as nurses commonly do with infants, God is wont in measure to ‘lisp’ in speaking to us? Thus such forms of speaking do not so much express clearly what God is like as accomodate the knowledge of him to our slight capacity. To do this he must descend far beneath his loftiness”
(Calvin, Institutes, Book 1, Chapter 13, Section 1).

Thanks for using Scripture... oh, wait.:rolleyes:

Seriously, shame on you.

In other words, God accommodates Himself to our finitude such that we can relate in some sense to Him. We know God has no mouth or arms or ears, etc., yet we find these sort of things in Scripture as it helps us get a sense of our Almighty God. Of course, that "sense" we get is related to the context wherein we find these sort of lisping speech, so abstract generalizations you are seeking may be helpful, but they are not absolute lines in the sand. So what is wrong with picking a specific passage and asking for opinions? Why are you resisting so much? It is odd and makes one wonder if you have something to worry about. Just sayin'.
So you're smart enough to understand the concept of God being outside of time and knowing all from before the beginning, but Abraham wasn't?

Also, anthropomorphism is by definition limited to physical traits. So equating God's comments to anthropomorphism just makes you look like an idiot.

For example, when we read God saying "It never entered my mind that...", do you really think God was caught off guard about something He is only just learning?
Yes.

Or, better, do you recognize this is an accommodation to how we express the same sentiments when we are taken aback by something, then we say "Well, I never!" with indignation.
If I say, "I never thought they would do such a thing," I mean it; it is not hyperbole.

See the difference?
I see how ignorant you are.

Very important to come to grips with this sort of style in Scripture or you end up off in the weeds with some very peculiar views of God's nature. Open theists have a pathological aversion to any anthropopathisms in Scripture as much of their root views hinge on these passages. But don't let that become a filter through which you run everything you read in the Bible.
I have absolutely no problem with anthropopathism in Scripture. I just know the difference between it and when God is really having a reaction.
 
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godrulz

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LH has a point and AMR has a point. Standard Open Theism is less susceptible to criticism on this point than LH view.

It is a hermeneutical issue. I would say OT has a stronger one since God can communicate vs baby lisp reality about Himself. OT can take passages at face value, while Calvinism takes some literally and others figuratively that could be taken literally if it did not contradict a preconceived theology. Change the theology, not the Bible.

Having said that, OT certainly take passages figuratively when context warrants it. OT also disagree on specific issues/interpretations, so LH is not the infallible authority (nor am I).

'Beyond the Bounds' deals with this issue, but I beg to differ with much of the content of the anti-OT/pro-Calvinism book.
 

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'Beyond the Bounds' deals with this issue, but I beg to differ with much of the content of the anti-OT/pro-Calvinism book.
It does not matter, as LH seems to have a pathological aversion to any books about Scripture topics. It is as if no Godly men have been illuminated by the Spirit enough to warrant his review or study.

Then again, he confuses discussion forums as not really being comprised of the same formats as books, you know, typewritten text, some themes, tables of contents, actual Christian authors, etc. So, whether he knows it or not, he does read "books", only the discussion forum, short-story, kind. ;)

AMR
 

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Thanks for using Scripture... oh, wait.

Seriously, shame on you.
Seriously, shame on you for not paying attention and being sanctimonious.

In my post I said "When we read God saying "It never entered my mind that..." "

Do I really need to quote Book, Chapter and Verse for you to recognize Scripture? :idunno:

Beam. Eye. Remove it. :AMR:

AMR
 

Lighthouse

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It does not matter, as LH seems to have a pathological aversion to any books about Scripture topics. It is as if no Godly men have been illuminated by the Spirit enough to warrant his review or study.
I have no aversion to such books, my issue is when Scripture is left out of the equation. If you can't post the relevant passages to support the non-Scriptural text then your argument is pointless.

Then again, he confuses discussion forums as not really being comprised of the same formats as books, you know, typewritten text, some themes, tables of contents, actual Christian authors, etc. So, whether he knows it or not, he does read "books", only the discussion forum, short-story, kind. ;)
You're an idiot.

Seriously, shame on you for not paying attention and being sanctimonious.

In my post I said "When we read God saying "It never entered my mind that..." "

Do I really need to quote Book, Chapter and Verse for you to recognize Scripture? :idunno:
No, you twit. I was referencing solely the section within the quote tags when I made my comment regarding the use of Scripture. I was referring solely to the passage from Calvin's writings.

This is why I call you stupid, because you couldn't even recognize the context.
 

godrulz

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AMR: idiot, stupid, twit?

I disagree with AMR on things, but I would feel a check in my spirit to show this kind of disrespect.

One should consider speaking truth in love and putting character above knowledge. Respect for elders would not hurt either.
 

Nang

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The greatest witness against OT is the hatefulnes and scorn expressed by its proponents.

Nang
 

godrulz

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The greatest witness against OT is the hatefulnes and scorn expressed by its proponents.

Nang

Since when is this a criteria for truth. One of my most negative experiences has been being banned from an apologetic site for the defense of basic Christianity vs atheism, etc. because I made a true statement about Calvinism. They then went on a witch hunt and made a new rule that they would not allow Open Theists to participate. Hypocritically, they had a prominent, published Open Theist on the site and allowed him to remain (so they lied and made excuses).

Calvinists can be some of the most ignorant against those who rightly disagree with their view. Some atheists and Muslims are very decent, more than many Christians. Some atheists and Muslims are vile.

Your point is pointless. The immaturity of some vocal TOL Open Theists do not reflect the average one. The OT conference I went to in April and tremendous love, unity, civility despite a significant diversity on any given issue.

Don't judge the content based on proponents. Using your logic, many could or should reject Christ/Christianity because of a few idiot Christians (cf. good vs bad politicians, doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc.).
 

Nang

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No, my point is not pointless.

This very site was formed with the intention to sell it's beliefs through truth-smacking and deliberate put-downs of any opponents. All with a big HA-HA against those who would supposedly be proven wrong by this innovative, modern, and macho "theology," that consists mostly of put-down, versus loving build-up in the love and grace of Jesus Christ.





Which is the opposite of the loving Spirit of God.
 

Nang

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I was directed to TOL because of the vitriolic hatred expressed by Clete against my husband on another site. And the first person I put on my Ignore List was
Lighthouse . . . for his terrible expressions of hatred and lack of respect for others.

Neither Clete or Lighthouse and very few other OTers show genuine love, concern or respect for those who profess a more established or historical belief.

OTers have not proven to have been given ears
to hear.

Nang
 

godrulz

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No, my point is not pointless.

This very site was formed with the intention to sell it's beliefs through truth-smacking and deliberate put-downs of any opponents. All with a big HA-HA against those who would supposedly be proven wrong by this innovative, modern, and macho "theology," that consists mostly of put-down, versus loving build-up in the love and grace of Jesus Christ.





Which is the opposite of the loving Spirit of God.

Open Theism is not the biggest issue or reason for founding this site, I doubt. I have more problems here with MAD than OT.

Calvinists like beloved57 have hardly been congenial either.
 

godrulz

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I was directed to TOL because of the vitriolic hatred expressed by Clete against my husband on another site. And the first person I put on my Ignore List was
Lighthouse . . . for his terrible expressions of hatred and lack of respect for others.

Neither Clete or Lighthouse and very few other OTers show genuine love, concern or respect for those who profess a more established or historical belief.

OTers have not proven to have been given ears
to hear.

Nang

I would not judge Gregory Boyd, John Sanders, Clark Pinnock, David Basinger, William Hasker, Alan Rhoda, etc. etc. by wannabe LH, Clete, etc. The prominent Open Theists are godly, mature, brilliant, not immature, ignorant, arrogant, etc.

Guilt by association is not reasonable. Judge the view on its own merits, not by a few less than congenial people here who happen to see truth to a view that is less problematic than your view.

Your stubborn streak and disdain is not the best e.g. either.
 

Nang

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Open Theism is not the biggest issue or reason for founding this site, I doubt. I have more problems here with MAD than OT.

Calvinists like beloved57 have hardly been congenial either.

Beloved57 refuses the label of "Calvinist" and he does not hold to the Reformed Confessions, so you will have to come up with another bad example to dirty us with!
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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I have no aversion to such books, my issue is when Scripture is left out of the equation. If you can't post the relevant passages to support the non-Scriptural text then your argument is pointless.
This is just more of the same sanctimony already pointed out to you. Filling a post with Scripture just because you think it makes a worthy discussion is pretentiousness.

Rather than focus on the specific Scripture I have asked you related to your "God does not know" stance, you post abstract polls...with no Scripture by the way. Just sayin'. ;)

AMR
 

godrulz

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Beloved57 refuses the label of "Calvinist" and he does not hold to the Reformed Confessions, so you will have to come up with another bad example to dirty us with!

He is hyper-Calvinist. It does not matter what he says, his ideas are clearly Calvinistic (you would agree with many of them), but he says them in an extreme way. He is certainly not Open Theism, Molinist, Arminian, Process Thought. There is a spectrum under each umbrella. He fits your mold more than any other category.
 
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