Who’s it to?

Derf

Well-known member
I’d like to talk about the target audience of the non-Pauline epistles, if anyone’s interested. It seems to be fairly high on the response list for MADs, so I hope it’s ok to post here. I’m not trying to dissuade anyone from the MAD point of view, at least not intentionally in this thread.

After reading through Revelation recently with my family, I thought it would be interesting to read through the books of the Bible in reverse order, so we read Jude, then 3rd, 2nd, and 1st John, and now we’re in 2nd Peter, moving toward 1st Peter.

Since MADists say the non-Pauline letters were written to those of Jewish or Israelite persuasion, they believe the main use of the texts is for them and not necessarily applicable to the body of Christ. (Please correct me if I’m not stating this right.)

What I noticed was that 3John references a previous letter, either 1st or 2nd John, that was rejected, along with its couriers, by a leader in the church John had written to, and that it also references several persons with Greek names, such as “Gaius”, and “Diotrephes”. (3 John 1:9 (KJV) I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.)

I propose that the letter 3rd John referenced was 2nd John, because it was to “The elect lady and her children”, suggesting that it was to a body of believers as a unit (elect lady), but also to the believers individually (children).

And because it was rejected, John wrote 3rd John to one of the members specifically, one that had aided his couriers, so that Diotrephes would not be able to prevent its delivery.

And because the names are Greek, it makes sense that the target audience of both were churches that were part of the body of Christ. And because of that, they weren’t interested, at least Diotrephes’ party wasn’t, in hearing what a Jewish authority had to say.

The indication is that the Greeks by this time (and other gentile believers) were getting mutually hostile against the Jews as the Jews had been (and still were in many cases) against the gentiles.

And perhaps that’s the primary reason for John writing both 1st and 2nd John, where he repeatedly admonishes the believers of either stripe to “love one another”.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Since MADists say the non-Pauline letters were written to those of Jewish or Israelite persuasion, they believe the main use of the texts is for them and not necessarily applicable to the body of Christ. (Please correct me if I’m not stating this right.)
Being Jewish or Israelite is NOT a "persuasion". It is a descendant relation.
And because the names are Greek, it makes sense that the target audience of both were churches that were part of the body of Christ.
That is a non-sequitur. Many Jews had Greek names as well as Hebrew names. Take Saul/Paul for example.
 

JudgeRightly

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Sure, but to then say that you know it was written to Jews is purely without any evidence at all.

Only if you disallow any other reasoning besides the origin of their names...

In reality, however, there are several places where it is made explicitly clear whom the letters are addressed to, aside from Galatians 2:7-9.
 

Derf

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Only if you disallow any other reasoning besides the origin of their names...

In reality, however, there are several places where it is made explicitly clear whom the letters are addressed to, aside from Galatians 2:7-9.
Would you like to offer a few for discussion?

And I would prefer you start with john’s letters, but I’m ok doing others.
 

JudgeRightly

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Would you like to offer a few for discussion?

Sure!

Hebrews:
The full title of Hebrews is "The Epistle to the Hebrews".

James:
James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. - James 1:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James1:1&version=NKJV

Peter's Epistles:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. - 1 Peter 1:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Peter1:1-2&version=NKJV

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: - 2 Peter 1:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter1:1&version=NKJV
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder),that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, - 2 Peter 3:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:1-2&version=NKJV

John's Epistles:
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. - 1 John 2:1-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John2:1-6&version=NKJV

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. - 1 John 2:18-20,28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John2:18-20,28&version=NKJV

Throughout John's epistles, he refers to his audience as "little children," referring to "the children of Israel."

The Elder, To the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth, - 2 John 1:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2John1:1&version=NKJV

I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father.And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. - 2 John 1:4-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2John1:4-5&version=NKJV

Jude:
Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you. - Jude 1:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude1:1-2&version=NKJV

Revelation (John's letter to the churches in Asia Minor/ Turkey):
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, - Revelation 1:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation1:1-4&version=NKJV

Before I give more verses from Revelation, I want to note a few things about the above passage. First, note that it's saying that the events of this prophecy (Revelation as a whole) are "things which must shortly take place," for "the time is near." This lines up perfectly with what Jesus said in the gospels about returning within His disciple's lifetimes, and especially with the (false) rumor that John would not die until Christ had returned (and yes, I'm aware that Christ Himself debunked that rumor, but He did say, "if I return before John dies, what is it to you?"...

Anyways, here's one more verse (there are plenty more that we can get into later if necessary)...

I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. - Revelation 1:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation1:9&version=NKJV

And I would prefer you start with john’s letters, but I’m ok doing others.

Gotchu covered!
 

Derf

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This may be a much simpler answer than is needed, but we can start with it.
Throughout John's epistles, he refers to his audience as "little children," referring to "the children of Israel."
Since much of your 123 John argument rests in the above, let’s consider it.

Here are a few instances Paul wrote to his children in the faith, which shows the phrase isn’t only to be used of Israel.
2 Corinthians 12:14 (KJV)
Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

Galatians 4:19 (KJV)
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

1 Thessalonians 2:11 (KJV)
As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father [doth] his children,

If you maintain that it does so with John, but not with Paul, merely because John is an apostle to the circumcised, your reasoning is circular.

Would you like now to address my contention about 3rd John, and its reference to a previous letter, either 1st or 2nd John?
 

Right Divider

Body part
This may be a much simpler answer than is needed, but we can start with it.

Since much of your 123 John argument rests in the above, let’s consider it.

Here are a few instances Paul wrote to his children in the faith, which shows the phrase isn’t only to be used of Israel.
2 Corinthians 12:14 (KJV)
Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

Galatians 4:19 (KJV)
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

1 Thessalonians 2:11 (KJV)
As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father [doth] his children,

If you maintain that it does so with John, but not with Paul, merely because John is an apostle to the circumcised, your reasoning is circular.

Would you like now to address my contention about 3rd John, and its reference to a previous letter, either 1st or 2nd John?
Again, John is one of those circumcision apostles that agreed to confine his ministry to the circumcision.
Why do you think that he broke his agreement and ministered to the uncircumcision?
 

Derf

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Again, John is one of those circumcision apostles that agreed to confine his ministry to the circumcision.
Why do you think that he broke his agreement and ministered to the uncircumcision?
Why did Paul consistently break the agreement? Maybe you don’t understand very well what the agreement actually was.

It wasn’t a contest to see who could push the different gospels the farthest, it was a division of territory for the same gospel. I know you don’t agree with that, but it makes more sense of the way John wrote his epistles.

If Paul preached to Jews (which he did), then John could have children in the faith that were Gentiles, that he might write to as “little children”.

Eventually Jerusalem became too hot for the twelve, so they left, too. Besides James, can you name one of the twelve who died in Jerusalem? Peter ended up in Rome (eventually crucified upside down, according to tradition), or some think Babylon. John ended up in Ephesus, according to tradition, but definitely was on the isle of Patmos for awhile. There are some pretty convincing evidences that Thomas went to India, and founded some churches that today still claim to be from him.
 

glorydaz

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Why did Paul consistently break the agreement? Maybe you don’t understand very well what the agreement actually was.

Paul broke no agreement. In fact, after fourteen years he went (by revelation) to the Apostles and "communicated unto them THAT gospel with I preach..." He went privately to those of reputation (Peter, James, and John) in case they opposed Paul's gospel. Their ministry to the Jews was waning while Paul's ministry to the Gentiles was growing. And since Peter had already been given a head's up with Cornelius and the sheet vision, he was aware there was a new guy in town, and they agreed to stay in their own lane.

Gal. 2:1-2
Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
It wasn’t a contest to see who could push the different gospels the farthest, it was a division of territory for the same gospel. I know you don’t agree with that, but it makes more sense of the way John wrote his epistles.
The apostles agreed that Paul should proceed with what the risen Lord had revealed to Paul, and they stepped out of the limelight. Ministering to those Jews who had been scattered abroad....preaching Christ as Messiah and enduring to the end...in order that their sins would be blotted out at the time of refreshing at the Lord's return.
If Paul preached to Jews (which he did), then John could have children in the faith that were Gentiles, that he might write to as “little children”.

Eventually Jerusalem became too hot for the twelve, so they left, too. Besides James, can you name one of the twelve who died in Jerusalem? Peter ended up in Rome (eventually crucified upside down, according to tradition), or some think Babylon. John ended up in Ephesus, according to tradition, but definitely was on the isle of Patmos for awhile. There are some pretty convincing evidences that Thomas went to India, and founded some churches that today still claim to be from him.
I think it's more likely that Jerusalem became too hot for the twelve so they hunkered down and worked on enduring. The Kingdom had clearly been postponed, and they were left waiting.

The focus was now on the Gentiles and so on Paul and he suffered more hardships than the rest combined. Paul was garnering the attention of the Jews and it wasn't pretty.
 

Derf

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Peter's Epistles:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. - 1 Peter 1:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Peter1:1-2&version=NKJV

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: - 2 Peter 1:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter1:1&version=NKJV
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder),that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, - 2 Peter 3:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:1-2&version=NKJV
So we see that Peter wrote both his epistles to the same people, right? Did anyone else of some significance also write to those same people? Yes, in fact, Paul did. How does it work for Paul and Peter to be writing to the exact same people?

2 Peter 3:15 (KJV) And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Notice that Paul is writing the same folks “according to the wisdom given unto him”, right? Would you have to agree that such would be Paul’s gospel?

Let’s see if we can figure out which epistle of Paul’s Peter was talking about. Peter wrote, as you said, to folks in “Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia”. So my first guess would be the epistle to the Galatians. Did you know that Galatians is the only epistle of Paul to be addressed to multiple churches?
Galatians 1:2 (KJV) And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia
All of his others are addressed “to the church that is at x”, or “to the saints at y”. Colossians was supposed to be read at Laodicea, but it was still addressed just “To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse.”

So all those places named by Peter are near one another in and around Galatia, which appears to be in the center of them.

Did you know that Galatians is the only place where Paul calls Peter “Peter”? He uses Cephas in Corinthians (and once in Galatians).

I’m not sure how much to make of that, but if Peter and Paul are writing to the exact same churches, and Peter mentions the exact same letter where the two supposedly agreed on this two gospel approach, how is it that they aren’t competitors when the two different gospels are being preached to the same people? And remember what the main thrust of Galatians is—that they should NOT submit themselves to circumcision. If Peter is telling these Gentiles to be circumcised (as part of his gospel) while Paul is telling them not to be circumcised in the strongest possible terms, how can Peter tell them to listen to Paul’s wisdom, when it directly conflicts with his own?

Finally, Peter explains that his audience were not a people before, but now are the people of God:
1 Peter 2:10 (KJV)
Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Which is very like what he said about Cornelius, as to be applied to Gentiles in general (that believe):
Acts 15:14 (KJV) Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
 

Derf

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He didn't. Unbelieving Jews (uncircumcised in heart and ears, Acts 7:51) can be considered as gentiles.
I think that’s a distinction without a difference. What you’re saying is that Paul will have to, in every city he visits, segregate all the believing Jews from the unbelieving Jews to keep from giving them the wrong gospel. Which is unbelievable from anyone, and there’s absolutely no scriptural evidence for him doing that.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Paul broke no agreement. In fact, after fourteen years he went (by revelation) to the Apostles and "communicated unto them THAT gospel with I preach..." He went privately to those of reputation (Peter, James, and John) in case they opposed Paul's gospel. Their ministry to the Jews was waning while Paul's ministry to the Gentiles was growing. And since Peter had already been given a head's up with Cornelius and the sheet vision, he was aware there was a new guy in town, and they agreed to stay in their own lane.

Gal. 2:1-2
Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

The apostles agreed that Paul should proceed with what the risen Lord had revealed to Paul, and they stepped out of the limelight. Ministering to those Jews who had been scattered abroad....preaching Christ as Messiah and enduring to the end...in order that their sins would be blotted out at the time of refreshing at the Lord's return.

I think it's more likely that Jerusalem became too hot for the twelve so they hunkered down and worked on enduring. The Kingdom had clearly been postponed, and they were left waiting.

The focus was now on the Gentiles and so on Paul and he suffered more hardships than the rest combined. Paul was garnering the attention of the Jews and it wasn't pretty.
But he never stopped preaching his gospel to Jews. And if @Right Divider is correct about the agreement, he should have stopped, while John and Peter never should have written to Gentile churches in the body of Christ. But they did.
 

glorydaz

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But he never stopped preaching his gospel to Jews. And if @Right Divider is correct about the agreement, he should have stopped, while John and Peter never should have written to Gentile churches in the body of Christ. But they did.
Paul did turn from the Jews. Acts 13:46-47

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

That remnant of Jews not blinded to Paul's gospel, sought him out.

You certainly go to elaborate schemes to prove something that cannot be proven.
Jesus and the Apostles preached the coming Kingdom on earth where Jesus would sit on the throne of David, while Paul preached the gospel of Grace to the lost. And, yes there were Jews and religious proselytes that followed Paul and Barnabas.

Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

This was all commanded by the Lord. No quibble room at all.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Paul did turn from the Jews. Acts 13:46-47

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

That remnant of Jews not blinded to Paul's gospel, sought him out.

You certainly go to elaborate schemes to prove something that cannot be proven.
Jesus and the Apostles preached the coming Kingdom on earth where Jesus would sit on the throne of David, while Paul preached the gospel of Grace to the lost. And, yes there were Jews and religious proselytes that followed Paul and Barnabas.

Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

This was all commanded by the Lord. No quibble room at all.
You do realize that Paul went first to the synagogue in the next place he went after that statement of his. No, he didn’t wait for the Jews to seek him, him went first to them, as was his custom. And not just then, but even after the council in Jerusalem, Paul continued to go to the Jews first:
Acts 17:2 (KJV) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

“As his manner was” means “as he normally did”. The episode at Antioch of Pisidia was not some great turning point in Paul’s ministry, because he still did the exact same thing “as his manner was” after that.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You do realize that Paul went first to the synagogue in the next place he went after that statement of his. No, he didn’t wait for the Jews to seek him, him went first to them, as was his custom. And not just then, but even after the council in Jerusalem, Paul continued to go to the Jews first:
Acts 17:2 (KJV) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

“As his manner was” means “as he normally did”. The episode at Antioch of Pisidia was not some great turning point in Paul’s ministry, because he still did the exact same thing “as his manner was” after that.
So you don't believe Paul meant what he wrote about turning from the Jews? Perhaps he was not willing that any should perish?

Romans 9:1-3
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

So, Paul clearly had great sympathy for his fellow Jews, but he knew more than you seem to realize. He was in a real quandry.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Romans 11:13-14 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.


As his "manner" was simply speaks to the fact that religious discussions took place in the synagogues....where Paul was very open about his desire to provoke the Jews to jealousy. And why would Paul provoke them to jealousy if he was preaching the Kingdom Gospel?
 

Tambora

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I think that’s a distinction without a difference. What you’re saying is that Paul will have to, in every city he visits, segregate all the believing Jews from the unbelieving Jews to keep from giving them the wrong gospel. Which is unbelievable from anyone, and there’s absolutely no scriptural evidence for him doing that.
I'm in agreement of this.
It seems outrageous that before Peter could preach he would have to ask for a raise of hands in the crowd to find out if any Gentiles were in the crowd so he wouldn't break a commitment to only preach to Jews.
And the same with Paul.
 

glorydaz

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I think that’s a distinction without a difference. What you’re saying is that Paul will have to, in every city he visits, segregate all the believing Jews from the unbelieving Jews to keep from giving them the wrong gospel. Which is unbelievable from anyone, and there’s absolutely no scriptural evidence for him doing that.
Nonsense. No one ever suggested such a thing, and I'm surprised you suggest it's what anyone is saying.

I realize you don't have a clue what it was like back in Paul's day, but I'm seeing a very active imagination....with no kernel of truth to be found anywhere.
 
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