Why i'm a socialist...

[This Charming Manc]

Over on this side of the pond I would not choose to describe myself a socialist,( maybe a centerist dad.) but within the political spectrum of TOL I definitely fulfil that role.

I enjoyed reading the definition of conservatism thread that going on and thought we need a rival one for us leftists;

Random Reasons why i'm on the left;

• I believe that the strong have a responsibility to protect and nurture the weak
• I believe that i am to a degree my brothers keeper
• I believe that somethings we do better corporately than individually
• If we are going to have vaguely equal opportunity, we need to attempt equal access to good quality healthcare and education
• I believe its wrong to do hoard wealth and do nothing whilst children live poverty
• I believe that is situations government is more effective than the private sector
• Markets are good at creating wealth but bad at spreading it fairly
• To harness the positive forces of the market we need to limits its excesses
• Unrestricted markets are just as exploitative and evil as unaccountable governments
• God ordains government for our benefit (Romans 12)
• There are things more important in the world than my personal freedoms
• I believe all people are my equals and wish to treat them with due respect

I don't by any stretch expect you all to agree with me.

 

[Traditio]

How are you defining "socialist"?

Because you understand that socialism has a very specific meaning, regardless of what the insane, misinformed right wingers think, right?

Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are socially owned, not privately owned. It is an economy which is centrally planned by the government.

If you are in favor of a vibrant free market, then no matter how robust a welfare state you want, then you are not a socialist.

 

[Traditio]

What is your opinion of Jeremy Corbyn?

 

[This Charming Manc]

How are you defining "socialist"?

Because you understand that socialism has a very specific meaning, regardless of what the insane, misinformed right wingers think, right?

Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are socially owned, not privately owned. It is an economy which is centrally planned by the government.

If you are in favor of a vibrant free market, then no matter how robust a welfare state you want, then you are not a socialist.

I'm using a common usage of it not a technical one, id call myself a centerist in the UK. My heart beats on the left but my approach is more pragmatic.

As regards markets I believe in the regulated markets, understanding markets do good things but need regulation.

As of Corbyn he seems a decent man, I would probably agree with many of his aspirations but not the political principles he would use to implement them. We need government that works for all.

 

[Traditio]

I'm using a common usage of it not a technical one

I don't think that this is a helpful political tactic. By calling yourself a "socialist," what you are doing is playing into the rhetorical strategy of the right and writing yourself off as having fringe economic beliefs.

In fact, the opposite is true. Even in the United States:

Roughly 60% of all Americans are in favor of a single payer, medicare for all healthcare system.

Most Americans are in favor of raising the minimum wage, and almost half of Americans are in favor of raising it to $15 per hour.

Most Americans are in favor of raising taxes on the rich and making them pay their fair share in taxes, not cutting their taxes.

Most Americans are in favor of legalizing marijuana.

Most Americans are in favor of ending the wars and pursuing diplomacy.

And if we waltz on over to Europe, did you know that, as of a couple of years ago, roughly two thirds of all Europeans are in favor of a universal minimum income?

The simple fact is that, in America, if you look at the polls and go issue by issue, most Americans agree with Bernie Sanders on virtually every issue, and Bernie Sanders is, by international standards, a moderate!

We are not the fringe.

The Republicans, libertarians, and the other various and sundry insane, misinformed, out of touch right wingers are the fringe.

Right wing evangelicals, who claim to believe in "Christian" values are the insane fringe, not us.

Though, right wing Christians, answer me this.

If Jesus were in charge of our political and economic institutions:

Whom would Jesus deny a living wage?
Whom would Jesus deny healthcare?
Whom would Jesus tell to "pick himself up by his own bootstraps"?
Whose taxes, among the poor and lower middle class, would Jesus raise?
Which innocent civilians would Jesus drone strike?
From which CEOs and billionaires would Jesus take "campaign contributions (in other words: legalized bribes)"?

We aren't the insane fringe. We aren't the insane, anti-Christian political partisans.

They are.

And make no mistake:

They are a dying breed. When the baby boomers die off, the political landscape is going to change drastically.

 

[Danoh]

Good "what would Jesus do" list, and the typical Trump supporter proves by their support of an individual likeTrump is on those issues, that Jesus was never really their moral compass.

Proves that theirs has all along been merely their belief that Jesus is their moral compass, not actually their practice of that.

Sort of like when a person goes on about what they would do in a situation and their answer often reflects more what they think they would do; not what they might were they to actually find themselves in that situation.

At the same time; I sincerely doubt Jesus would legalize the ganja: in Scripture it would be viewed as a form of sorcery; a definite no-no :chuckle:

 

[jsanford108]

Over on this side of the pond I would not choose to describe myself a socialist,( maybe a centerist dad.) but within the political spectrum of TOL I definitely fulfil that role.

I enjoyed reading the definition of conservatism thread that going on and thought we need a rival one for us leftists;

Random Reasons why i'm on the left;

• I believe that the strong have a responsibility to protect and nurture the weak
• I believe that i am to a degree my brothers keeper
• I believe that somethings we do better corporately than individually
• If we are going to have vaguely equal opportunity, we need to attempt equal access to good quality healthcare and education
• I believe its wrong to do hoard wealth and do nothing whilst children live poverty
• I believe that is situations government is more effective than the private sector
• Markets are good at creating wealth but bad at spreading it fairly
• To harness the positive forces of the market we need to limits its excesses
• Unrestricted markets are just as exploitative and evil as unaccountable governments
• God ordains government for our benefit (Romans 12)
• There are things more important in the world than my personal freedoms
• I believe all people are my equals and wish to treat them with due respect

I don't by any stretch expect you all to agree with me.

I agree with most of your points.

You are not a socialist. And I agree with the other user, Traditio; by classifying yourself as such, you are accepting an inaccurate label, misapplied to you by alt-righters.

I am a conservative. I never classified myself as a libertarian, but that seems to be the group I fit with most, politically.

My point in even replying is to show that Traditio is also false in their broad misapplication of false ideas and labels onto the opposite end political spectrum.

Why can we not have civil discussions on issues? Too often, we see leftists (not true liberals) spreading falsehoods. Too often we see rightists (not true conservatives) spreading falsehoods.

We should focus on and discuss issues that matter using facts, not falsehoods.

This is the end of my soapbox moment, with hopes of actual discussion.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[This Charming Manc]

You are not a socialist. And I agree with the other user, Traditio; by classifying yourself as such, you are accepting an inaccurate label, misapplied to you by alt-righters.

I'm more happy with the socialist label than the liberal one. Liberalism suggests an stance of maximum freedom and I don't hold to that position. I believe in a society and the restrictions on personal freedoms for corporate benefit.

 

[shagster01]

God made the world unfair. Why are you trying to be better than God?

 

[chair]

God made the world unfair. Why are you trying to be better than God?

God called for sharing wealth with the poor. There are a number of laws regarding obligations to the poor. Like in Leviticus 19:
9 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the Lord your God.

Or the laws of the Sabbatical year.

God isn't as conservative as you make him to be.

 

[Gary K]

God called for sharing wealth with the poor. There are a number of laws regarding obligations to the poor. Like in Leviticus 19:
9 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the Lord your God.

Or the laws of the Sabbatical year.

God isn't as conservative as you make him to be.

The very text you quoted destroys the myth of socialism being taught in the Bible. Notice that God didn't say there were exact amounts of anything. Tell, me, what is the "edges of your field"? Make that an exact number. You know, like taxes. And, show me how many grapes fall off the vine. An exact number, you know, like taxes.

What you will find is God also said don't reap the corner of the field. What is it that defines the corner of a field? Do you measure out a foot on each side of the corner? Do you measure out 10 feet? 2 feet? Notice that God left this up to the individual's conscience just as He did with the edges of the field. That is individualism put into practice. And also notice that God didn't put the government he created in charge of setting prices or controlling the market. That was all individualism once again. And, God put the all the means of production and transportation in the hands of individuals too. All that is free market capitalism. Also note, that when the people wanted a centralized government during the days of Samuel, God told them there very distinct disadvantages to it. But, the people insisted and God gave them their way. It didn't take long for them to regret it either. By the time they had gotten their 4th king the kingdom was split over the issue of taxation.

God isn't nearly as socialistic as you make Him out to be. He is far more individualistic. The Bible teaches individual responsibility all the way through it.

 

[This Charming Manc]

God made the world unfair. Why are you trying to be better than God?

Did he or is that a result of the fall?

 

[This Charming Manc]

The very text you quoted destroys the myth of socialism being taught in the Bible. Notice that God didn't say there were exact amounts of anything. Tell, me, what is the "edges of your field"? Make that an exact number. You know, like taxes. And, show me how many grapes fall off the vine. An exact number, you know, like taxes.

What you will find is God also said don't reap the corner of the field. What is it that defines the corner of a field? Do you measure out a foot on each side of the corner? Do you measure out 10 feet? 2 feet? Notice that God left this up to the individual's conscience just as He did with the edges of the field. That is individualism put into practice. And also notice that God didn't put the government he created in charge of setting prices or controlling the market. That was all individualism once again. And, God put the all the means of production and transportation in the hands of individuals too. All that is free market capitalism. Also note, that when the people wanted a centralized government during the days of Samuel, God told them there very distinct disadvantages to it. But, the people insisted and God gave them their way. It didn't take long for them to regret it either. By the time they had gotten their 4th king the kingdom was split over the issue of taxation.

God isn't nearly as socialistic as you make Him out to be. He is far more individualistic. The Bible teaches individual responsibility all the way through it.

Really? I think you just read your individualistic dogma into it.

The bible is written into an ancient world why the assumption of the reader was not one of individual freedom but corporate responsibility. You read your individualistic world view into it.

If God is giving laws which encourage or even demand responsibility to the poor, he is not telling you its optional because he doesn't confirm your demanded level of Pedantry. If God says 'help the poor' he means 'help the poor', if he does via corporate laws, he means it could and should be done together(by government).

 

[Angel4Truth]

Over on this side of the pond I would not choose to describe myself a socialist,( maybe a centerist dad.) but within the political spectrum of TOL I definitely fulfil that role.

I enjoyed reading the definition of conservatism thread that going on and thought we need a rival one for us leftists;

Random Reasons why i'm on the left;

• I believe that the strong have a responsibility to protect and nurture the weak
• I believe that i am to a degree my brothers keeper
• I believe that somethings we do better corporately than individually
• If we are going to have vaguely equal opportunity, we need to attempt equal access to good quality healthcare and education
• I believe its wrong to do hoard wealth and do nothing whilst children live poverty
• I believe that is situations government is more effective than the private sector
• Markets are good at creating wealth but bad at spreading it fairly
• To harness the positive forces of the market we need to limits its excesses
• Unrestricted markets are just as exploitative and evil as unaccountable governments
• God ordains government for our benefit (Romans 12)
• There are things more important in the world than my personal freedoms
• I believe all people are my equals and wish to treat them with due respect

I don't by any stretch expect you all to agree with me.

What do you think about Venezuela?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Really? I think you just read your individualistic dogma into it.

The bible is written into an ancient world why the assumption of the reader was not one of individual freedom but corporate responsibility. You read your individualistic world view into it.

If God is giving laws which encourage or even demand responsibility to the poor, he is not telling you its optional because he doesn't confirm your demanded level of Pedantry. If God says 'help the poor' he means 'help the poor', if he does via corporate laws, he means it could and should be done together(by government).

2 Corinthians 9:7 Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not out of regret or compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver

There are also a lot of Gods edict on what is required of the "poor" and sojourner receiving aid. Are you familiar with those parts of scripture?

 

[This Charming Manc]

What do you think about Venezuela?

I don't have a lot of details or knowledge, but it looks like the wheels have come off badly.

What do you think about sweden?

 

[Angel4Truth]

I don't have a lot of details or knowledge, but it looks like the wheels have come off badly.

What do you think about sweden?

Some things are good and some things are really bad. Every other instance of a socialism model ive seen, comes off the rails and ends in dictatorship.

 

[Nihilo]

I'm more happy with the socialist label than the liberal one. Liberalism suggests an stance of maximum freedom and I don't hold to that position. I believe in a society and the restrictions on personal freedoms for corporate benefit.

If you can only choose between complete freedom, and complete lack of freedom, which do you choose, if you have to choose, between just those two extreme options; complete freedom or complete slavery?

 

[Gary K]

Really? I think you just read your individualistic dogma into it.

The bible is written into an ancient world why the assumption of the reader was not one of individual freedom but corporate responsibility. You read your individualistic world view into it.

If God is giving laws which encourage or even demand responsibility to the poor, he is not telling you its optional because he doesn't confirm your demanded level of Pedantry. If God says 'help the poor' he means 'help the poor', if he does via corporate laws, he means it could and should be done together(by government).

Jesus laid out what the principles of charity in the parable of the Good Samaritan. In that parable you will find no government involvement.

You're alleging that any reading of the Bible must be corporate. Really? I think you will find that very hard to support scripturally. I would really like to see your scriptural support for such an assertion. Show me, from scripture, where God has said that charity is the forcing of another person to live as you think they should.

As to scriptural support for my view, let's look at a few texts.

Exodus 25:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.:

Deuteronomy 4: 9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons’ sons;

Deuteronomy 4: 29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Deuteronomy 5: 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Psalms 51: 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

I think those texts are enough to establish the principle of individual responsibility from the OT. Now let's look at the NT.

Matthew 5: 8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Matthew 5: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Matthew 5: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Matthew 12: 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Matthew 13:15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 15: 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Matthew 19: 16 ¶And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there isnone good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Mark 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

I think that is enough to establish individual responsibility out of the NT. Christianity is a religion of individual responsibility.

 

[chair]

The very text you quoted destroys the myth of socialism being taught in the Bible. Notice that God didn't say there were exact amounts of anything. ..

You should read your Bible sometimes:
Deuteronomy 26:12New International Version (NIV)
12 When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.