Jesus is God !

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Just to fine tune that a bit - - We totally agree on the nature of Jesus being fully God and fully man, and we agree that God is Trinity (which was hammered out by the great Catholic councils early in the first millennia but I won't gloat here. LOL. :)
There was no need for the RCC to tell us this. It's all in the Bible (and NO, the RCC did not "give us the Bible").

The RCC claimed a false authority and fools tons of people.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
There was no need for the RCC to tell us this. It's all in the Bible

The Church came before the Bible. The Church GAVE you the Bible. The Church under Pope Damasus I in the late 4th century ratified the 27 books of the New Testament. You would know that if you studied Christian history. The Church decided on the divinity of Christ before it even put together the New Testament!

Your entire outlook on how the faith is handed down and where teaching authority lies is all bitched up. But that discussion is for another thread not this one.

THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICAEA, held in 325 AD, on the occasion of the heresy of Arius (see Arianism).
 
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keypurr

Well-known member
According to you, so is the rest of your family, but you simply think you are 'smarter' than the rest of us. Sorry, not true. Ignorance isn't 'the light' Keypurr. It amounts to you saying "While I'm not as intelligent as the rest of you, I disdain you for not coming down to my way of thinking." It is just this arrogant.
You either have truth or you don't, most here don't. My thoughts are not held hostages any church like yours are. Many things I am stupid in, but not theology. I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ. You still need to learn that and distance yourself from churches that do not teach the importance of God's Ten Commandments. Is not Christ coming back for those who keep them? Who's Sabbath do you keep Lon?
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Strange terms like "philosophical"?

Its in John 1, one of my favorite scriptures.

The Word Became Flesh​

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

John one makes a philosophical concession, it presents sequence when there wasn't any. God had no beginning yet he has always been the Father of the Son.

Show us where Jesus said that he was the second person of the Trinity.
He can't. The son is the image of the Father, as such, he had a beginning. And he is a creature.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Caino, this is why I tell you, you don't really know the Bible or you'd not say such things. It shows ignorance despite your protest.
He is a created form of God, Phil 2. If you found a verse that says he is God show us. Why would he say he has a God if he is God? He came to do the will of his Father. Am I asking for to much Lon?
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Only in a philosophical sense, but the Paradise Trinity is Eternal. Jesus the Son of God isn't the second person of a Trinity, he would be a creation of the Trinity at some point in the eternal past. Jesus never actually said that he could be the second person of the indivisible Trinity.
Jesus is/was a man.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Trump Gurl and Lonster,
As long as they believe that God the Son is also God, yes.
No, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son.

One God, YHWH, One Being
Yes, Yahweh, God the Father is one being.
One being yet three persons: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit
All I can say about this assessment is that those that formulated this must have had a vivid imagination. I cannot find your definition in the Bible. God the Father and Jesus, the Son of God are separate beings, separate persons.
He has already revealed that he is fully God and fully man, to witnesses, through the written word, and through his Holy Church.
No, I cannot agree that during his ministry that Jesus was fully God and fully man. These two concepts cannot be reconciled, and this is another example of a vivid imagination. If this is so easily resolved, then why is this such a long running thread, some 177 or now 178 pages so far?

The actual mark of 'in Christ's image' is that He remakes a person into a new creation.
Yes, I agree with this, but there is not much more for me to comment on in the rest of your post.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

JudgeRightly

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Greetings again Trump Gurl and Lonster,

No, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son.


Yes, Yahweh, God the Father is one being.

All I can say about this assessment is that those that formulated this must have had a vivid imagination. I cannot find your definition in the Bible. God the Father and Jesus, the Son of God are separate beings, separate persons.

No, I cannot agree that during his ministry that Jesus was fully God and fully man. These two concepts cannot be reconciled, and this is another example of a vivid imagination. If this is so easily resolved, then why is this such a long running thread, some 177 or now 178 pages so far?


Yes, I agree with this, but there is not much more for me to comment on in the rest of your post.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus is God.


(All I have time for right now.)
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings JudgeRightly,
Jesus is God.
I am not sure if you want the members of this forum to simply read the article that you refer to, or you consider the article completely conclusive. Take for example the first major introductory statement:

Thus Saith the Lord: If we count how many times the Old Testament prophets said, "Thus says the Lord" we find them using that phrase, in the New King James Version of the Bible, about 420 times. The New Testament on the other hand, never once records that phrase. Jesus Christ, with all the red ink devoted to recording His words, never once used that ubiquitous phrase, "Thus saith the Lord." Rather, Jesus proclaims, "I say to you," in the Gospels! Not a single "Thus says the Lord," but rather, "I say to you," 135 times. The following chart demonstrates biblically that these two phrases, Thus saith the Lord, and I say unto you, indicate the same thing, that God is speaking. For Jesus Christ made it clear that He Himself was at the heart of His teaching. Unlike the righteous priests and kings, prophets and the apostles, the Lord focused His message on Himself:”

Possibly the following summarises the difference between the revelation in the past, and the revelation through Jesus.
Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
What this does not say however is that it is God the Son speaking, but that the one God, God the Father is speaking by or in his Son. Thus this teaches that Jesus is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
No, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son.

That is the heresy of Arianism. a heresy that Christianity declared anathema in the fourth century.

The arch-heretic Arius was made a presbyter in 313 AD, and had the charge of a district in Alexandria called Baucalis. In 318 AD, his quarrel with Bishop Alexander broke out over the fundamental truth of Our Lord’s divine Sonship and substance. (See Arianism.) He was condemned at Alexandria in 321 AD and excommunicated.

In response to the heresy of Arianism The First Council of Nicea, formulated the Creed which is still recited today, The following is a literal translation:

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance [ek tes ousias] of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of the same substance with the Father [homoousion to patri], through whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men and our salvation descended, was incarnate, and was made man, suffered and rose again the third day, ascended into heaven and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. Those who say: There was a time when He was not, and He was not before He was begotten; and that He was made out of nothing (ex ouk onton); or who maintain that He is of another hypostasis or another substance [than the Father], or that the Son of God is created, or mutable, or subject to change, [them] the Catholic Church anathematizes.​

Today we say:

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The second paragraph makes clear that Jesus is God.

And for perspective, this all happened before the church even ratified the 27 books of the New Testament. The Church under Pope Damasus I in the late 4th century ratified the 27 books of the New Testament, decades after the Divinity of Christ was Christian Dogma.


Jesus is God.

Yes.

He is a created form of God

The man who gets his theology, and prizes, from Crackerjack boxes.
 

JudgeRightly

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I am not sure if you want the members of this forum to simply read the article that you refer to,

I expect people to consider the points made in the article before dismissing it out of hand.

or you consider the article completely conclusive.

I consider the article to be strong evidence for Jesus being the Creator God, evidence that is not normally considered when the topic comes up.

Take for example the first major introductory statement:


Thus Saith the Lord: If we count how many times the Old Testament prophets said, "Thus says the Lord" we find them using that phrase, in the New King James Version of the Bible, about 420 times. The New Testament on the other hand, never once records that phrase. Jesus Christ, with all the red ink devoted to recording His words, never once used that ubiquitous phrase, "Thus saith the Lord." Rather, Jesus proclaims, "I say to you," in the Gospels! Not a single "Thus says the Lord," but rather, "I say to you," 135 times. The following chart demonstrates biblically that these two phrases, Thus saith the Lord, and I say unto you, indicate the same thing, that God is speaking. For Jesus Christ made it clear that He Himself was at the heart of His teaching. Unlike the righteous priests and kings, prophets and the apostles, the Lord focused His message on Himself:”



Possibly the following summarises the difference between the revelation in the past, and the revelation through Jesus.
Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,

First, I completely agree with scripture, the above not withstanding.

Second, while I see what you're trying to say, I think you're missing the point completely.

The point is that Jesus was taking the place of God when he used the phrase "I say unto you."

Regardless of which prophet said, "Thus says the Lord," they are speaking in place of God, while still attributing to God the words they are about to utter.

This is NOT the case with the phrase Jesus used, which focuses the attention on Himself, BECAUSE He is God.

And verses such as the one you just quoted make that abundantly more clear.

The verses you quoted, while yes, do "summarise the difference between the revelation in the past, and the revelation through Jesus," what it DOESN'T do is exclude Jesus from BEING God. Here's why:

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. - Hebrews 1:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:1-4&version=NKJV

In other words, while in the past, God spoke through prophets to the nation of Israel (instead of speaking directly to them (which utterly terrified them)), however, God spoke through Jesus directly to them, and didn't terrify them, because He came as a man, the Man, Christ Jesus. The catch is that Jesus claimed the words He spoke as His own, and not the words of God.

The dichotomy is this:

If Jesus was not God, then simply using the words "I say unto you" is blasphemy, because Hebrews specifically states that God was speaking using Jesus, because Jesus is claiming God's authority as His own.

On the other hand, if Jesus IS God (and He is), then by Him using the phrase "I say unto you," He is rightly claiming to be God, because He takes the authority of God as His own.

The fact is that Jesus claimed to be God.

Whether you believe Him or not is on you. (John 12:48)

What this does not say however is that it is God the Son speaking, but that the one God, God the Father is speaking by or in his Son.

It teaches EXACTLY BOTH! And there is no contradiction in that!

It teaches that God the Son is speaking, and that God the Father is speaking through His Son, because what the Son says is what the Father has said.

[JESUS]For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”[/JESUS] - John 12:49-50 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:49-50&version=NKJV

Thus this teaches that Jesus is the Son of God.

Yes it does. On that we firmly agree. But you leave out that it also teaches that Jesus is God the Son of God.
 

NWL

Active member
That is the heresy of Arianism. a heresy that Christianity declared anathema in the fourth century.

The arch-heretic Arius was made a presbyter in 313 AD, and had the charge of a district in Alexandria called Baucalis. In 318 AD, his quarrel with Bishop Alexander broke out over the fundamental truth of Our Lord’s divine Sonship and substance. (See Arianism.) He was condemned at Alexandria in 321 AD and excommunicated.

In response to the heresy of Arianism The First Council of Nicea, formulated the Creed which is still recited today, The following is a literal translation:

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance [ek tes ousias] of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of the same substance with the Father [homoousion to patri], through whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men and our salvation descended, was incarnate, and was made man, suffered and rose again the third day, ascended into heaven and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. Those who say: There was a time when He was not, and He was not before He was begotten; and that He was made out of nothing (ex ouk onton); or who maintain that He is of another hypostasis or another substance [than the Father], or that the Son of God is created, or mutable, or subject to change, [them] the Catholic Church anathematizes.​

Today we say:

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The second paragraph makes clear that Jesus is God.

And for perspective, this all happened before the church even ratified the 27 books of the New Testament. The Church under Pope Damasus I in the late 4th century ratified the 27 books of the New Testament, decades after the Divinity of Christ was Christian Dogma.




Yes.



The man who gets his theology, and prizes, from Crackerjack boxes.
I've previously seen you say you "give the best responses", but repeatedly when I read your post all you do is plagiarize articles taken from the internet and copy and paste them as your own.

For example, you said above "In 318 AD, his quarrel with Bishop Alexander broke out over the fundamental truth of Our Lord’s divine Sonship and substance", that wording is identical to an article found here, along with the wording " He was condemned at Alexandria in 321 AD and excommunicated", you then go on quote an article according to common practice.

Typically, when people quote from a secular source they provide the source document details too. In my opinion, its a little dishonest to use another writing pretending it's your own. Perhaps you should start making it clear that most of the time you seem to respond to people you simply copy and paste articles to avoid integrity accusations.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Trump Gur
That is the heresy of Arianism. a heresy that Christianity declared anathema in the fourth century.
I do not agree with Arius, as I believe that Jesus was a man, and did not pre-exist Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14. I also reject the JW perspectives.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again JudgeRightly,
The point is that Jesus was taking the place of God when he used the phrase "I say unto you."
Jesus spoke God the Father’s words, and these were given to him by God.
JESUS: "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.” - John 12:49-50 NKJV

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
I do not agree with Arius, as I believe that Jesus was a man, and did not pre-exist Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14. I also reject the JW perspectives.

But you also do not agree with 2,000 years of all Christianity believing he is God.
Basically, you have created your own personal Jesus with the attributes that you personally want him to have.

Sorry. Christianity does not work that way.

Absolute impudence, out-and-out effrontery, the unmitigated gall that some of you Cretins have is just unbelievable.
TWO THOUSAND YEARS of Christianity, teachings of the great saints and theologians, preaching of the great bishops, writings of the great doctors of the church, and most of all the Holy Spirit within BILLIONS of Christians spanning two millennia. . . . .

. . . . all of this and more you just flick away with a brush of the hand, all because little old you and your little poorly translated Bible read a few pages and think you know it all. The chutzpah of you people is amazing.

Well TrevorL you just go on believing whatever you concoct in your mighty brain, that god-like brain that obviously knows more than the billions of saints spanning 2,000 years. Don't bother sharing it with us though. We are nowhere near as brilliant as you and we will never understand your divine emanations.
 

JudgeRightly

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Greetings again JudgeRightly,

Jesus spoke God the Father’s words, and these were given to him by God.


Kind regards
Trevor

Simply repeating MY premise doesn't prove your point, Trevor.

The fact that those words were given to Jesus by God, and that Jesus then claims those words as His own by uttering the phrase, "I say unto you," means either one of two things: That Jesus was not God, and blaspheming God by claiming to be God, or that Jesus IS God, and therefore rightly claiming God's authority as His own.

There is NO OTHER POSSIBILITY.

Address my points please.

If you cannot, please explain why, or at the very least, say that you cannot.

Here is my point again (and the point of the article):

Jesus, by using the phrase "I say unto you," is replacing the Old Testament's "Thus says the Lord," which was said by prophets to connote that what they were about to say is DIRECTLY from God. NOT ONE of them ever said "I say unto you" to claim ownership of what was said by God.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (and the rest of the chapter, for that matter) makes it abundantly clear that EVERYTHING Jesus said was from God. Yet Jesus did not say "Thus says the Lord," as the prophets of old did. Rather, He claimed the words for Himself, saying "I say unto you."

In other words: Either Jesus was claiming to be God, or He was blaspheming God. THERE ARE NO OTHER POSSIBILITIES.
 
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