Right Divider
Body part
I find that Justin Johnson at graceambassadors.com puts this very well:
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These are NOT the same gospel
- Thread starter Right Divider
- Start date
Derf
Well-known member
Yet both happened. They aren't mutually exclusive.
glorydaz
Well-known member
You have to understand how it was they "both happened".
The Kingdom program from prophecy has merely been put on hold.
It will continue, as prophesied, in the not too distant future.
It will be in that Kingdom program that the Jews will witness to the gentiles.
So, they are, indeed, mutually exclusive. A mystery revealed to Paul by the risen Lord.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
NO!!!!
Paul did NOT say search the scriptures for only certain things about Christ.
You know that.
God clearly says in scripture that He will always have a remnant.
The remnant is not on hold.
The remnant never stopped or was put on hold.
Jews were witnessing to Gentiles both before and after Paul's conversion.
Blindness in part.
Yeppers.
This is one of the ways MADism goes off the rails.
They place great emphasis on Paul's teaching, yet they are blind to the fact that Paul's teaching applies scriptures that are clearly about the nation of Israel to all nations of the world (ie. mankind).
They will readily admit that characters (Isaac, Moses, David, etc.) and items (ark, tabernacle, etc.) of Israel are typologies of Christ towards mankind; but refuse to recognize Israel itself as a typology of Christ towards mankind.
But Paul does.
You can add this to your above scripture references:
Romans 11:30-32 ESV
(30) For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
(31) so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
(32) For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
All nations (mankind), not just Israel, are fallen.
All nations (mankind), not just Israel, will be united again as one people of God.
Israel is a typology of the longsuffering of God towards mankind.
Paul recognizes that, which is why he uses sooooooo much OT scripture about Israel and applies it to all nations (mankind).
Adam (mankind) fell, as Israel did.
Mankind was split up and dispersed (tower of Babel), as Israel was.
The split up and dispersed Israel will be united again, as mankind will be.
God's plan all along was to restore mankind to the fellowship they once had together in the Garden.
That plan has never been on hold, never been parenthetical, never been paused.
Right Divider
Body part
No, Israel was a nation separated from the nations. That nation was given a mission that will eventually succeed due to God's Spirit filling them in their new covenant.
PAUL is the PATTERN for the longsuffering of God for mankind. At least that's what he says in scripture. 1 Tim 1:16
That's a claim.
What does that have to do with it?
You're really stretching here.
Even in the end, the Bible shows Israel as the head nation on earth with the kings of the gentiles coming to Israel.
Rev 21:21-27 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:21) And the twelve gates [were] twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city [was] pure gold, as it were transparent glass. (21:22) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (21:23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof. (21:24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (21:25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (21:26) And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. (21:27) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Isa 60:9-22 (AKJV/PCE)
(60:9) Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee. (60:10) And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. (60:11) Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that [men] may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and [that] their kings [may be] brought. (60:12) For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, [those] nations shall be utterly wasted. (60:13) The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. (60:14) The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. (60:15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through [thee], I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (60:16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. (60:17) For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. (60:18) Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. (60:19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (60:20) Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. (60:21) Thy people also [shall be] all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. (60:22) A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
God promised Israel a kingdom in a land with a King. That is most definitely on hold at the present time (since about Acts 7).
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
You don't think that it was "on hold" when they you know executed their own King? That was before Acts 7.
Right Divider
Body part
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
lol because you think His kingdom executing their own King, gets 'an out' because He came back to life! lol!
I'm blushing.
Right Divider
Body part
First, you are a retard.
Second, God did not cut them off immediately upon executing their own King, but gave them some time to repent. There is even a prophecy about it.
You're pretty typical of a RC... Biblically illiterate.
As you should be for other reasons.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
lol what exactly do you think the three years refers to? Don't you think, maybe that's the three year earthly ministry of Jesus? And at the end of the three years, what "fruit" did the "fig tree" produce?
Wasn't it the execution of their own King?
Chop chop!
Right Divider
Body part
Duh... Yes, that is exactly what it's referring to.
None.
Yes, no fruit.
Luke 13:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
(13:8) And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung [it]: (13:9) And if it bear fruit, [well]: and if not, [then] after that thou shalt cut it down.
But, as Paul tells us... their problem is not permanent. See Romans 11.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
I never contended otherwise. But chop chop! nonetheless.
Right Divider
Body part
But you believed that God cut off Israel the moment that they killed their Christ?
It's hard to know what you believe.
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Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
I'm pointing out that if a kingdom ever executes their own monarch, then that's not the same situation as before they did that.
Right Divider
Body part
You seem to be forgetting the rest of the parable, where there was an extra year given to till the soil.