Was Gen 1 and 2 one event blended or two separate events?

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Ps82

Well-known member
Clete said:
This is NOT Christian doctrine. It is neither biblical nor is it rational.

If you want to make up your own religion go ahead, just don't pretend like you're a Christian. I can't comprehend what your motives could possible be for even wanting to put on such a pretense, but I don't really care either. Just don't take our side, okay? You make us look like lunatics.
Click to expand...
Question: Did God create an image for Himself before he gave that same likeness to mankind? What is your version of "his image"? Do you know God has a soul? Leviticus 26:11 and Exodus 20:19-21? Do you know what a soul is? Scripture tells us that when there was a body for mankind and God breathed spiritual life into it ... it was then that man became a living soul. It seems to be a living soul there needs to be a body and the living essence from God shared with it ... Wallah, a complete living soul.

Old Testament:
Leviticus 26:11 ... LJV says: And I (the LORD God) will set my tabernacle (dwelling place) among you (Israel): and my soul will not abhor you.
12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people. 13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt ...

There you go. The invisible SPIRIT, Elohim, has a body for walking around and dwelling in an abode among Israel. Sounds like the Spirit of God found a way to have a walking talking presence ... which he also shared its likeness with Adam.

Exodus 20:19-21 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.
21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down charge the people, lest they break through unto the Lord to gaze (look upon me), and many of them perish.

It seems Moses did know the LORD God face to face! He heard and knew his voice. The people were not invited to see his visage and were in danger if they tried to see (gaze at) him. Because the SPIRT knew how to become a walking talking soul within his own creation.

New Testament:

John 5:37-38 Jesus said: 37,38 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye (clueless leaders of Israel) have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

You see - There was a shape (bodily form to be seen) and their was and audible voice to be heard. You'd have to go back to the days of Samuel to find out why these men were not allowed to see and hear the Lord as the little boy Samuel ... but Jesus made it clear they had not been given the privilege of seeing the presence (the soul of God named The LORD God/YHWH).

This image God created plus a living spiritual essence from God was what God used to make both himself and Ada, walking talking living visible souls (individuals seen) within creation!

Now you guys - prove me wrong ... just saying. I'd love the conversation.
 
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Ps82

Well-known member
Quibbling. Words I use - versus type of language I speak. You really mean you don't like the concepts I share which are different from most of the things you heard. I accept that ... but that does not automatically make them wrong. Sure, I don't get all ideas correct ... some times I speculated ... some times I ramble as I wonder about things ... sometimes I make a suggestion, but I usually say things similar to these ... This is my opinion. What I think. I have wondered. I'm no expert. Now, there are certainly topics where I speculate, but others where I have done a huge amount of studying. I do have the ability to thoroughly discuss my favorite topics, where I am more informed and adamant ... while listening to the views of others on other topics.

Let's be friends or at least polite. I'm not a cultist or am I trying to make anyone look like a lunatic. Nor do I come as a committed heretic ... trying to take over the TOL board as one or both (?) of you suggested (as: post blatant heresies as if this was their own personal 'Heresy Central' blog posting website?)

I plan to re-friend you. I had thought ignoring you might make TOL more pleasurable for all of us. Yes, I do want to get my thoughts across ... and will probably leave TOL if not much interest becomes the norm.
 
Clete

Clete

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Right Divider said:
She always uses very cultist language, but I'm not sure which cult.
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If by “cult” you mean a theological system that redefines God, Christ, and creation outside historic Christianity while claiming biblical authority then there is no question this is cultist.

It's weird mix of modalism (i.e. Oneness Pentecotalism) and Gnostgicism.

When I fed it into Chat GPT, it's unprompted response (i.e. all I did was feed the posts into GPT and hit enter) started with....

"The TOL poster’s position is internally incoherent, biblically unsustainable, and conceptually confused. It invents a two-stage creation, a “created image of God” that God supposedly inhabits, and a seventh-day work period that Scripture explicitly denies. It also collapses into a form of modalism mixed with quasi-Gnostic pre-existence of humanity. The argument relies on category errors, misread Hebrew, and repeated contradictions of the biblical text it claims to explain."​
​
Seems pretty dead on to me!
 
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Ps82

Well-known member
I do not belong to some cult. I see what I see in scripture. At this time I believe what I see.

In fact, the very title of the Creation Story is listed in the first verse and if you look at verses 1-2 they explain exactly who is doing the work.
Prayers that someone will read all of this ....

PART A
Gen. 1:1-2 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ... the Spirit of God moved ..." (IOW God as in God's Spirit)

I asked: Who is God the Spirit?
Gen 1-3 The Hebrew word used for God's Spirit is elohyim #430. This is a plural form of a singular word #433 elowahh. Sort of like a plural of child to children or perhaps a collective noun. like a choir or team

Seeing the definition I asked: Now, why would a plural noun or perhaps a collective noun be used to describe our ONE God?
I thought: After all, he is all in all! - He is life; he is omni-present; he is infinite; he is power and energy; he is love; he is his word; he is mercy; he is forgiveness; he is judge; he is salvation; ... He is all in all and all life and all things come from him ... and nothing but a plural word should be used to encompass all of who he is. Thus Elohiym. not elowahh.

Strong's Concordance gives this definition: #430 elohiym el-o-heem; plur. of # 433 gods in the ordinary sense BUT spec. used (in the plural thus, espec. with the art.) of the supreme God....(it goes on to mention how all inclusive the words elowahh and elohiym can be when referring to magistrates ... and as a superlative - among angels X exceeding (I concluded the word exceeding used in the case of ordinary angels refers to an exceeding number???), even referring to The God (or to gods) - godly and goddesses, very great, judges X mighty... rarely....

Now, the title-verse 1 tells us the major things God the Spirit is planning to do such as creating: Heaven and earth.

Well, Chapter one tells you this about heaven:
Read vv.6-8
Gen. 1:6 Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters.
Well, I happened to know that Christ mentioned having a special water to give the woman at the well for her immortality; so, waters to me refer to measure of life from God.

Therefore I thought: Let there be a firmament in the midst of LIFE meant let there be a boundary within GOD's Spiritual LIFE.
I asked: What is this firmament?
v 8 God called the firmament HEAVEN and it separated life from above and below. Now, I don't think of God having divided himself into sections for he is always - all in all ... HIS LIFE to give is above and below this boundary, but I do see how he is allocating places to put things ... and these places will contain waters (IOW -LIFE); so, they are meant to contain living things which he plans to create ... All remain within God's SPIRIT ual essence!

This accounts for how God could have created mankind(male/female) as a living spiritual entity within HIM while their not yet being manifested on earth. After all there was no earth at that time in Genesis 1.
Example: v2 ... The earth was without form, void; darkness was upon the face of the deep.
I asked: What is the deep darkness? Well, to cut this short ...
The deep has to be the infinite nature of God's dark essence - IOW they were inside God's invisible essence - His Spirit. God goes on to describe the things he is creating in the waters below the heavenly firmament.

Verse 10 describes when HE brought forth dry earth and seas. earth is lifeless and water is lifeless H2O I believe later man calls them Earth and Seas. KJV is my favorite, but I know that punctuation and maybe capitalization may have come along with KJ English.

PART B:
God creates earth.
I asked: If Heaven was a barrier separating life from other life, what is earth?
Gen. 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place (it's place), and let the dry land appear; and it was so.

Now catch this: earth did not contain life waters. It was dry - no measures of waters of life from God!
... earth were the things being brought forth which were not to live. I assume laws of energy. God began to call forth all sorts of lifeless elements to form lifeless creation. Things did not come from nothing... they came from the willful sentience of God and his power. While yet this realm below the firmament (and above) still had LIFE present to give to whom he would. JUST WOW!

Here is my conclusion of part one of creation ... when The Spirit worked within Himself in Genesis 1:

When God formed our Earth there was no life... only a solid form. I suggest these same lifeless elements were used to form what we think of as our solar system ... to the universe.
I suggest, for reasons, there was only dead elements forming earth until Genesis 2. It was in Genesis 2 that life was added to form something called - ground! Humanity gave the title to earth - Earth. I believe God manifested earth first and it was to become visible as soon as mankind had actual eyeballs to behold it in the LIGHT of God. Starting with verse 24 which says: Let the earth bring forth ...which to me was a divine Law and a divine list.
v. 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living...

Genesis 2:2-3 makes it clear things have changed from the first six. I will discuss Gen. 2:2-4 in much greater detail in Part Two.
Paraphrasing for time's sake:
vs. 2 And on the 7th day God (elohiym/Spirit) ended his work ... and rested from all His work.
vs. 3 And God blessed this 7th day, and sanctified it: because ... he rested .

I asked: Might that insinuate there was certainly the work of elohyim (God the Spirit) but also there may be more work coming? From whom ... where ... when?

vs. 4 These are the generations (perhaps a long period of time) of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens ...
vs 5 ... (a time) before the plants were in the fields .. before there was rain for The LORD had not caused it to rain ... there was no man... no ground (elements/matter having life waters added to it).

If you wish you, you can read Part two of how I explain the rest of why I see Gen. 2 as a separate event from Gen. 1
 
Clete

Clete

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Ps82 said:
I do not belong to some cult. I see what I see in scripture. At this time I believe what I see.

In fact, the very title of the Creation Story is listed in the first verse and if you look at verses 1-2 they explain exactly who is doing the work.
Prayers that someone will read all of this ....

PART A
Gen. 1:1-2 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ... the Spirit of God moved ..." (IOW God as in God's Spirit)

I asked: Who is God the Spirit?
Gen 1-3 The Hebrew word used for God's Spirit is elohyim #430. This is a plural form of a singular word #433 elowahh. Sort of like a plural of child to children or perhaps a collective noun. like a choir or team

Seeing the definition I asked: Now, why would a plural noun or perhaps a collective noun be used to describe our ONE God?
I thought: After all, he is all in all! - He is life; he is omni-present; he is infinite; he is power and energy; he is love; he is his word; he is mercy; he is forgiveness; he is judge; he is salvation; ... He is all in all and all life and all things come from him ... and nothing but a plural word should be used to encompass all of who he is. Thus Elohiym. not elowahh.

Strong's Concordance gives this definition: #430 elohiym el-o-heem; plur. of # 433 gods in the ordinary sense BUT spec. used (in the plural thus, espec. with the art.) of the supreme God....(it goes on to mention how all inclusive the words elowahh and elohiym can be when referring to magistrates ... and as a superlative - among angels X exceeding (I concluded the word exceeding used in the case of ordinary angels refers to an exceeding number???), even referring to The God (or to gods) - godly and goddesses, very great, judges X mighty... rarely....

Now, the title-verse 1 tells us the major things God the Spirit is planning to do such as creating: Heaven and earth.

Well, Chapter one tells you this about heaven:
Read vv.6-8
Gen. 1:6 Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters.
Well, I happened to know that Christ mentioned having a special water to give the woman at the well for her immortality; so, waters to me refer to measure of life from God.

Therefore I thought: Let there be a firmament in the midst of LIFE meant let there be a boundary within GOD's Spiritual LIFE.
I asked: What is this firmament?
v 8 God called the firmament HEAVEN and it separated life from above and below. Now, I don't think of God having divided himself into sections for he is always - all in all ... HIS LIFE to give is above and below this boundary, but I do see how he is allocating places to put things ... and these places will contain waters (IOW -LIFE); so, they are meant to contain living things which he plans to create ... All remain within God's SPIRIT ual essence!

This accounts for how God could have created mankind(male/female) as a living spiritual entity within HIM while their not yet being manifested on earth. After all there was no earth at that time in Genesis 1.
Example: v2 ... The earth was without form, void; darkness was upon the face of the deep.
I asked: What is the deep darkness? Well, to cut this short ...
The deep has to be the infinite nature of God's dark essence - IOW they were inside God's invisible essence - His Spirit. God goes on to describe the things he is creating in the waters below the heavenly firmament.

Verse 10 describes when HE brought forth dry earth and seas. earth is lifeless and water is lifeless H2O I believe later man calls them Earth and Seas. KJV is my favorite, but I know that punctuation and maybe capitalization may have come along with KJ English.

PART B:
God creates earth.
I asked: If Heaven was a barrier separating life from other life, what is earth?
Gen. 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place (it's place), and let the dry land appear; and it was so.

Now catch this: earth did not contain life waters. It was dry - no measures of waters of life from God!
... earth were the things being brought forth which were not to live. I assume laws of energy. God began to call forth all sorts of lifeless elements to form lifeless creation. Things did not come from nothing... they came from the willful sentience of God and his power. While yet this realm below the firmament (and above) still had LIFE present to give to whom he would. JUST WOW!

Here is my conclusion of part one of creation ... when The Spirit worked within Himself in Genesis 1:

When God formed our Earth there was no life... only a solid form. I suggest these same lifeless elements were used to form what we think of as our solar system ... to the universe.
I suggest, for reasons, there was only dead elements forming earth until Genesis 2. It was in Genesis 2 that life was added to form something called - ground! Humanity gave the title to earth - Earth. I believe God manifested earth first and it was to become visible as soon as mankind had actual eyeballs to behold it in the LIGHT of God. Starting with verse 24 which says: Let the earth bring forth ...which to me was a divine Law and a divine list.
v. 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living...

Genesis 2:2-3 makes it clear things have changed from the first six. I will discuss Gen. 2:2-4 in much greater detail in Part Two.
Paraphrasing for time's sake:
vs. 2 And on the 7th day God (elohiym/Spirit) ended his work ... and rested from all His work.
vs. 3 And God blessed this 7th day, and sanctified it: because ... he rested .

I asked: Might that insinuate there was certainly the work of elohyim (God the Spirit) but also there may be more work coming? From whom ... where ... when?

vs. 4 These are the generations (perhaps a long period of time) of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens ...
vs 5 ... (a time) before the plants were in the fields .. before there was rain for The LORD had not caused it to rain ... there was no man... no ground (elements/matter having life waters added to it).

If you wish you, you can read Part two of how I explain the rest of why I see Gen. 2 as a separate event from Gen. 1
Click to expand...
This is literal gibberish! There isn't anything about this that even partially resembles rational thought. It's barely intelligible as having been written in English!

This is not interpretation but just pure speculation. Speculation that has no basis in ANYTHING. There doesn't even seem to be any articulable motive much less any coherent method. It cannot be made any sense of because it does not actually mean anything in a stable or disciplined way. The terms are never defined consistently, the categories constantly shift, and conclusions are asserted without logical connection to the premises. "Elohim" does not mean “all God’s attributes,” "waters" does not mean “life essence,” and creation does not occur inside God. Very normal Hebrew grammar is being mistaken for metaphysics, and unhinged imagination is doing the work Scripture never even attempts to do.

If you were a member of a cult you'd have an excuse. As it is, you convict yourself.

You are insane.
 
Nick M

Nick M

God and sinners reconciled
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I give you credit for trying. But as others noted, that was painful to read. There is a lot to the Genesis account that does fill in a few blanks. He also said;

Let us make man in our image.

In Exodus Moses wrote, just in case there is confusion on six days....

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

I don't read or speak Hebrew or Greek. But others do and they can explain it. I read Walt Brown's book on the hydroplate theory a couple of decades ago. It is excellent and all should read it.

 
P

Ps82

Well-known member
Nick M said:
I give you credit for trying. But as others noted, that was painful to read. There is a lot to the Genesis account that does fill in a few blanks. He also said;

Let us make man in our image.

In Exodus Moses wrote, just in case there is confusion on six days....

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

I don't read or speak Hebrew or Greek. But others do and they can explain it. I read Walt Brown's book on the hydroplate theory a couple of decades ago. It is excellent and all should read it.

Click to expand...
Thank you for reading my post. It was a lot to take in.

Further explanation:
God's image lives in unapproachable light. God called forth light in Genesis 1. To me that signified things to behold by others was coming. The LORD God gave Adam functioning eyeballs ... and Adam beheld the living WORD OF GOD in a concret form.

Adam and woman HEARD the footsteps of The WORD walking in the Garden coming near them. They hid from HIS PRESENCE because they felt they could hide from the walking talking presence of God.

Who was that presence in the Garden and when did he first appear?
Well, THE presence of God was created before he created male/female Genesis 1. He already had in HIS image and had in mind to give mankind a form after HIS OWN IMAGE ... after HIS LIKENESS.

The info you need to understand is the fact that God created an IMAGE for himself.
This miracle of creation called for a new name. God with a presence. The creator went from elohiym (an invisible SPIRIT God) to an Emmanuel/Immanuel ... God who appeared among men - within creation.

Elohiym gave a name to his visible walking talking presence, who appeared like a friend to some men on Earth - The LORD The LORD God. At first men only knew him as God Almighty but God told Moses his name forever was The LORD The LORD God. (KJE). I can find the scripture for these things and have in other posts ... but so time consuming and I get denials anyway; so, I'll just state the truth of things.

Sure God (The SPIRIT elohiym) rested on the seventh day... but God Emmanuel began his in your face work on the seventh day as a visible God - Genesis 2.
It says: These were the generations the LORD worked. Jesus told us: Hitherto my Father worked. Now I work. (slightly paraphrased)

Jesus's Father was The LORD of the 7th Day ... and he spoke the audible words of God to mankind just as his Father did to Adam and Eve.
God (elohiym) came among men again as Emmanuel - (God among men) - when he came as his own son - the Christ Jesus. And Jesus being God, being the WORD of God, being the LIGHT of God, (hidden by mortal flesh) as he dwelt on earth spoke the WORDS of God among men and did miracles similar to what the super natural Father had done in Genesis 2.

How do I know Jesus looked like the Father? Jesus couldn't have been more plain. When you have seen me (my image-presence) you have seen (the image- presence of) the Father. ONE invisible God having ONE image used it to represent only HIM visually among men.

The words of Jesus and the miracles Jesus testified that he and Father are ONE and one with elohiym (The Spirit). One in spirit and both bore the image belonging to The Spirit of God/elohiym, which he created for his purposes among men. One of his purposes is so that humanity was to look like him and be his children in his kingdom. We will resemble our Lord's likeness in his kingdom just as we resemble him now.

One quick example of a miracle the Father and son both did for man's sake:

The LORD formed the functioning body of mankind to make him a completed soul. He added a mist of water (IOW: a small measure of life from God) to the earth to form a mixture called ground. The Father then gave Adam functioning eyeballs along with the rest of his body.

Well, Jesus demonstrated that same miracle of Gen. 2: He added his spittle (IOW: a small measure of life from God) to the dust of the earth and made a mixture called ground. After that Jesus formed functioning eyeballs from that mixture for a man who had no functioning eyeballs from birth. The God the Father LORD and God the Son our Savior and Lord are one and they are one with God the Spirit.

This is the reason it can be said that Jesus, being the WORD of God, being one with the Father, and being one with God the Spirit, created everything.
 
P

Ps82

Well-known member
Nick M said:
Is what he tells us of himself.

Some of your work reads like idolatry, which simply means your own version of God in your mind. I know you are trying to understand it, but it looks more like your version of what he says.
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I do think I am finding truth in scripture. Elohiym, God the Spirit, of Genesis 1 reveals to us he has an image. Not only is it his image but he suggests it is OUR image. As in - let us make man after OUR image. I believe the all encompassing living ONE God warrants a collective noun and plural pronouns to describe his vastness but a singular pronoun is just as appropriate for he is the ONE God.

He also chose only ONE image to represent himself as the ONE God. That is apropos.

So, let me stop here and you tell me what about these beliefs do you consider idolatry? Can you show me scripture that proves God did not have an image to use at his pleasure as the one God. I'd be curious to see if I could debate your finding in any way.
 
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Clete

Clete

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Nick M said:
I give you credit for trying. But as others noted, that was painful to read. There is a lot to the Genesis account that does fill in a few blanks. He also said;

Let us make man in our image.

In Exodus Moses wrote, just in case there is confusion on six days....

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

I don't read or speak Hebrew or Greek. But others do and they can explain it. I read Walt Brown's book on the hydroplate theory a couple of decades ago. It is excellent and all should read it.

Click to expand...
You give him too much credit. His effort is in the realm of imagination, not reason. He is making stuff up out of whole clothe. His foundation is nearly pure fantasy with no teleological value whatsoever. His method belongs in the field of fiction novel writing, not theology or linguistics.

Worse than that, he isn't the least bit interested in whether or not he might be wrong. He doesn't care at all about whether his methods make any actual sense. It doesn't matter how tenuous and weird his connections are or even if such connections are even detectable by anyone other than himself. He hasn't just divorced himself from proper methods of intellectual inquiry but has severed any connection his mind once had to any correction mechanism. He has intentionally set himself adrift into a mental mirasma akin to an LSD hit and written his hallucinations down and called it Christian theology.
 
Clete

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
Ps82 said:
I do think I am finding truth in scripture. Elohiym, God the Spirit, of Genesis 1 reveals to us he has an image. Not only is it his image but he suggests it is OUR image. As in - let us make man after OUR image. I believe the all encompassing living ONE God warrants a collective noun and plural pronouns to describe his vastness but a singular pronoun is just as appropriate for he is the ONE God.

He also chose only ONE image to represent himself as the ONE God. That is apropos.

So, let me stop here and you tell me what about these beliefs do you consider idolatry? Can you show me scripture that proves God did not have an image to use at his pleasure as the one God. I'd be curious to see if I could debate your finding in any way.
Click to expand...
You are making up god as you go. The word we use to name the concept of creating whatever sort of god we desire to exist is...

IDOLATRY

The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what you "think you are finding". Truth is not a matter of personal opinion. Genesis either teaches the nonsense that you suggest or it does not. Just as importantly, there are means by which we can determine what Genesis actually does teach.

But you are not interested in actual truth. You are interesting in being the guy who discovered something deep and new and amazing and profoundly important. You have a need to feel important, as do we all, but you've divorced the means of achieving significance from anything real. You'd literally do just as well if you just burned your bible and simply made up your own religion out of thin air.
 
Right Divider

Right Divider

Body part
Ps82 said:
Adam and woman HEARD the footsteps of The WORD walking in the Garden coming near them.
Click to expand...
You make things up about the Bible that are not there. You are disgusting.

Gen 3:8 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:8) And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.​
 
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