On the omniscience of God

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
The primary premise of Open Theism is that God is free (He has a will of His own), therefore the future is not 100% settled, because God can change His mind.
I entirely agree that this is definitely an important aspect of Open Theism's theology proper but I'd stop short of calling it a primary premise. The primary premise(s) of Open Theism are God's qualitative attributes. It is the fact that God is loving and just (and in all ways righteous) that stands as the primary premise(s) upon which the idea that the future is open depends.

Of course, that's not far away from the idea that God is free. My point here is only that the argument goes in the other direction than your statement would imply. Open theists generally begin with the conviction that God is genuinely personal, loving, righteous, relational, responsive, etc. From that, they argue that His relationship with creatures must involve real interaction: human choices genuinely matter, prayer can make a real difference and God can respond differently depending on what creatures do. Which is to say that God's ability to change His mind is down stream from the quality of His character (logically speaking).

Having said that, I suppose it does depend on just what argument you are building because if God were not free then He could not be moral. In that sense, the fact that He is a free personal agent is logically prior to moral agency, but still, that isn't usually the way the argument goes. We typically start with the premise that everyone agrees with and argue from there.
 
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VladtheDestroyer

Well-known member
open theism puts free will over God ,gives free will preeminence
open theism says if God has exhaustive infallible foreknowledge we don't have free will
This shows that free will is given higher priority than God’s knowledge and sovereignty.

W2G, you are being ridiculous.

Do you think that when James White goes to a drive-thru he just says nothing when he pulls up to the window? 😂

Give me a break.
 

VladtheDestroyer

Well-known member
What is then, @way 2 go ?? @Lon ??

When you're at the counter at McDonalds do you say, "No you can't take my order because I'm not a heretic like the open theists are."?

Explain to me how is it when James White orders a hamburger, that he isn't actually promoting heresy according to your insane worldview?
 
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way 2 go

Well-known member
open theism puts free will over God ,gives free will preeminence

No, it doesn't.

True

No, it doesn't show anything of the kind.

Of course. Which He doesn't do with everyone, only those who submit to Him as Lord. The others will die, and since He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, He is NOT working in them to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Yes, we are predestined such because we have submitted our will to His.

Which can ONLY be possible if free will is real. Otherwise we can't "align our will" (a free will phrase) with His. We certainly can't do so if it was determined before we began to exist.

There's no preeminence of a will submitted to God's.
God knows the future we do not , only the open theist thinks God knowing the future takes away free will


open theist give "free will preeminence" over God is shown here :

(Revelation 9:21) And they did not repent of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

open theist because of "free will preeminence" say this is prophecy it might be wrong , can't be trusted is how I take that

if God knows foreknows of their sins open theist want to make God somehow
(they don't say how ) responsible for the sin and non repentance
so with "free will preeminence" you can tear out Revelation and Daniel (except they're not conditional prophecies)
 

Right Divider

Body part
open theism puts free will over God ,gives free will preeminence
You are either:
  • Grossly ignorant or
  • A blatant liar
God knows the future we do not , only the open theist thinks God knowing the future takes away free will
If ALL of YOUR FUTURE actions are already KNOWN FULLY... then you have no FREE CHOICES.

It's just that simple.
open theist give "free will preeminence" over God is shown here :

(Revelation 9:21) And they did not repent of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

open theist because of "free will preeminence" say this is prophecy it might be wrong , can't be trusted is how I take that
God is free and we are created in His image.

You are trying to force the scripture to "agree" with you and you cannot understand what it actually says.
 

Derf

Well-known member
open theism puts free will over God ,gives free will preeminence


God knows the future we do not , only the open theist thinks God knowing the future takes away free will


open theist give "free will preeminence" over God is shown here :

(Revelation 9:21) And they did not repent of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

open theist because of "free will preeminence" say this is prophecy it might be wrong , can't be trusted is how I take that

if God knows foreknows of their sins open theist want to make God somehow
(they don't say how ) responsible for the sin and non repentance
so with "free will preeminence" you can tear out Revelation and Daniel (except they're not conditional prophecies)
Did you even read anything I wrote? You certainly didn't respond like you did.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Been watching a lot of Soteriology101 videos recently, in which Dr. Leighton Flowers consistently shows the errors of Calvinism, and promotes "Provisionism," which teaches that God has provided a way of salvation for mankind. (I definitely recommend listening to his shows on YT.)

But he pokes at the Open Theist camp (in love, of course) saying that he rejects our (as I am an Open Theist, too) view of God's omniscience, which is that God can know all things knowable, but also that God does not know the future. He obviously (because his show isn't really about Open Theism so much as it is Provisionism and attacking Calvinism,

I figured I'd start this thread to discuss what it means for God to be omniscient.
Well I believe that God is all knowing but we have to define what the Word, to know is. And we have to recognize that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. As other scholars have pointed out space time and matter first came into existence Because God created those things. Therefore God is greater than space time and matter. He does not live within time he operates outside of time. Time is creation that God did. Therefore he knows the past the present the future all the time.

There are two Greek words that are useful for understanding knowing. One is ginosko and the other is oida. ginosko is to know by experience. oida is to be aware of. God is not the cause of evil he is not the source of evil therefore he cannot experience being the cause of evil. He is however aware of evil. So God being all knowing He certainly is aware of everything but He has not personally been involved with everything God is good always therefore God personally involved with being the source of all that is good but he is not the source of evil so he's not personally involved with being the source of evil.

I hope that clarifies the situation a little bit
 

VladtheDestroyer

Well-known member
As other scholars have pointed out space time and matter first came into existence Because God created those things. Therefore God is greater than space time and matter. He does not live within time he operates outside of time. Time is creation that God did. Therefore he knows the past the present the future all the time.

Time is mostly understood as just the passing of events. If you are an adult male, living in the US, there is a 50% chance you just have been inside of a jail cell at one point in your life. And while you were there, you found that it gets hard to keep track of time because there is not much going on inside your cell that noticeably affects you. Your toilet doesn't move, there's no clock on the wall and your buddies outside the jail can't physically come in an tell you what time is.

And this turns out to be somewhat close to the reason why physicists will say that time actually stops at the speed of light. As light propagates from one point to another, it happens so fast that nothing else is fast enough to affect it in any noticable way. So there isn't a physical marker or clock a beam of light can use to "count the passing of time", it like being in a jail cell (not a perfect analogy but a relatable one)

I believe it's at this point where Christians realize "Hey but God doesn't have to wait for a photon to hit his eye before He can see a beam of light..because He's God!" (and this is correct) so in this sense God is actually faster than light and we conclude from this that;

if time stops a light speed then God must be OUTSIDE of time.

But this is wrong. We forget that the faculties people use to notice the passing of time in the universe, don't work exactly the same way as they do and will in the spiritual realm. Currently, even the most cleverest of ways we have of modeling and "counting" the passing of time are all still limited by the capabilities of our physical peripheral system because, ultimately all of the information we acquire in the universe has to be converted into an electrochemical signal. That is how WE work. But God doesn't have these limitations so when we wrongly apply our model to Him, we get infinity. In other words, the answer we get is that God must be seeing or knowing or experiencing the entire past and future all at once. All at the same instant. Forever.

We eventually have to decide which one of the following is true:

A) God is infinity unable to notice the passing of time. (As though he were in a jail cell. Unable to be affected by anything).

or

B) Our current capabilities for modeling and even noticing the passing of time, are limited.


And I think the best way to know for certain which answer is correct, is to just look at the Bible. God is constantly affected by our actions and our prayers. Because He is relational and things change. And the Bible even describes time in heaven. There really isn't a reason to make it any more complicated than that.


Rev 8:1 "When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour"
 
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