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No! JR made the whole argument above. Time is not a thing, its an idea and the question cannot even be asked without employing a self-contradiction. There can be no such thing as "BEFORE" time. The proposition is as textbook an example of a self-stultifying concept as there could ever be.

Okay, first of all, pointing out that there's a lot of people who agree, IS NOT AN APPEAL TO POPULARITY FALLACY!!!!! You just cannot understand how much it drives me crazy when people do this sort of thing! It's just so much hubris. It's just an attempt to say something that makes you sound...

Why didn't you answer the question, Lon? Love cannot exist without the ability to do otherwise! No moral act of any kind can exist without the ability to do otherwise. The ability to do otherwise is what it means to have a will. You MUST be able to choose if the term "morality" is to have any...

No! NO! NO! Where is this even coming from? Where is the payoff for you to water this down? The reason He knew was because of the outcry, not because He knows everything there is to know! Not only that, but He doesn't take the testimony of those He's heard from as proof but it going down...

That would be redundant. To do or to do otherwise refers to any act, whether in thought, word or deed.

I have no time except to say one thing.... I do not, nor does any open theist I have ever read, define the word love as "the ability to do otherwise". If anything that is what it means to have a will. Do you believe that it would be conceptually possible for a being that had no will to love...

There are such variations in every school of thought whether theological or otherwise. It doesn't make it that hard to follow logically. You just have to pay attention to who you're reading and understand why he's saying what he's saying. I submit that those open theists who disagree with me...

Okay, so there's no way I can respond to all of your post. I'd be here till Christmas 2026! There are several theodicies that people have formulated. They seem to all mention free will but any of them produced by Catholics or Calvinists or Methodists universally give mere lip service to free...

The reason you cannot do it is because it is a contradiction. In fact, it is a specific kind of contradiction known as a stolen concept fallacy. The concept of existences presupposes (i.e. it is logically dependent upon) the concept of duration and when you speak of duration you are employing...

I could have almost guest that! The procession of rifles isn't prohibited outright.... New York Buyer: 21+ for handguns, 16+ for long guns (federal law limits purchases to 18+), permit required to purchase handguns, no waiting period Concealed carry: Allowed with permit, generally does not...

Time does not exist ontologically. Time is an idea. It exists only as a convention of language used to convey information related to the duration and sequence of events relative to other events. Done! And it isn't my opinion, either. It is a specific and very valid form of argument called an...

What state do you live in?

Time is an idea, not an actual thing, so your comment makes no sense. There are several things that you could mean by the statement and so, by definition, it does not stand on its own. Yes, well when stupid people say stupid things they often think thet're being pithy and wise. That doesn't...

Just as that which "tends toward" life is the good. In other words, this would be a redundancy. The point is that the basis for and premise of good is life and the basis for and premise of evil is death. As the scripture affirms... Deuteronomy 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and...

Okay, so maybe it will help to focus the discussion by zeroing in on what we're really talking about here. I'll try to at least touch on the major points of disagreement. Let me know if I fail to do so. What we are talking about is, more or less, the problem of evil and what you are trying to...

It would go a long way toward preventing such treatment if you posted something more substantive than just a pithy sounding comment that is naked of anything to establish it as more than something you just made up off the top of your head. Tell people what in the world it is that you make you...

@Lon, I think you might have missed Derf's point (or one of them anyway). Let me phrase the point in the form of a question... IF Adam and Eve, having been created good, would not have eaten of the Tree (i.e. sinned) without temptation, then it would follow that the same would apply to Lucifer...

Lon, I had a whole post written in detailed response to this hypocritical post and I just deleted it. Here is the whole thing in a nutshell.... Saying it doesn't make it so and repeating your position doesn't stand as a rebuttal of a refuted point. You are taking generally true statements...

That which promotes life is the good and that which promotes death (i.e. the negation of life) is the evil but neither exists in the sense that good and evil are some sort of substances where they exist in the ontological sense of the word "exist". I suppose you could say that good exists in...

I stand by my statement and do so firmly. Bit players that had something to do with killing people not withstanding. I'm not aware of anything that either of us have said that hasn't been cordial. Disagreement should not be interpreted has hostility - especially on a text based web forum where...