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I think this should have concluded documentation....

I cannot accept this. There is not one good thing about this system of creating sinners for no reason, some to die and some to be saved. HE did not even create Satan this way yet after seeing the horrors of a free will choosing sin, both in the Satanic war in heaven and Eve's idolatry of the...

I agree, it is Calvinism and I also agree with this doctrine...BUT Calvinism also says that by nothing found in ourselves, in those elected to be saved or in those not elected to be saved, caused their election or reprobation... a cause for dismay or derision at a God who would do this because...

Some get the grace to do just that while others do not... Eph 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.…

Addendum: a free will must have the ability to choose both righteousness and sinfulness. Never choosing sin is not a lack of free will but an embodiment of the will's ability to choose righteousness. Sinners cannot choose righteousness without grace so they have no free will. But to become a...

ImCo: Free will is NOT measured by the ability to chose because those enslaved by, addicted to, besotted with, evil desires still chose which sins to indulge in and how to indulge them. In fact since GOD cannot sin nor create sinners, the fact that sin and evil has come into HIS creation is...

The fall happened before the foundation of the world... The serpent arrived in the garden already evil with evil intent....

It is this way because only sinners are born into mankind, some as the sinful but good (elect) seed, the sinful people of the kingdom, (Matt 13:36:39) the sheep of Christ by faith who have gone astray into sin but are then returned to Him: 1 Peter 2:25 For "you were like sheep going astray," but...

Thank you... ...I use the word predestined to refer to the fact that I believe that we were so destined before, pre, the existence of the physical universe, ie, the foundation of the world. If someone was destined to hell after they sinned but before the foundation of the world, then to speak...

But HE told us of the Divine messiah, and that the Messiah would suffer and die and HIS people got it not at all - not because it was beyond their ability but because it did not conform to what they saw through their narrow knothole. The same thing is happening again as the prophecies of Daniel...

But doesn't the majority of so called orthodoxy accept that we are sinners by osmosis from Adam???

HE is light and no dark is in HIM, ie, there is no way at all that HE can be responsible for the sins of anyone or for their choosing sin such as being created, born or conceived, into someone else's sinfulness. The mind boggles at this blasphemy, sigh.

I don't read it this way at all . ImCo, 2Jn 1:1 does not restrict the word elect to the lady church just by using it that way.... The church is elect because it is made up of elect persons, not the other way around. The church is reprobate when it is made up of reprobate goats, not sheep.

YES! I AGREE!! OUR predestination occured AFTER our fall as a response to the fall even though it was told to all that predestination to hell was inevitable if any sinned the unforgivable sin... Predestination created no sin whatsoever!!! It only warned of, predicted, the inevitable RESULT OF...

Yes, I believe this represents their doctrine also... Those who deny this obvious implication are deep in doublethink fueled by the cognitive dissonance the doctrine of double predestination creates in them, a workable reconciliation only if you don't actually dig into the implications too...

This is impossible to avoid without massive doublethink, accepting that opposites can be true at the same time...that HE predetermined all things yet is not responsible for our being created evil by having us created in Adam's sinfulness.

I agree. HIS reason is accepted by Calvinists as apparently not based upon any condition found in us to accept us or to reject us but to play this unfathomable card is unfathomable in itself giving the fact of HIS nature e benevolent, loving, righteous and just. Our salvation had to be outside...

Yes, this is the Calvinist mistake, knowing a little theology but nothing about HIS loving nature...believing sovereignty trumps love but it in fact must conform to love, righteousness and justice. Sovereignty does not mean that if HE chooses to do something it then conforms to HIS loving...

...which would tend to imply that their predetermined fate was based upon their free will choices and decisions and NOT without condition nor reason as Calvin suggested. They chose their eternal relationship with YHWH and HE chose their eternal fate as the perfect moral response to their free...

Not just Calvinists... I am a die-hard anti-Calvinist and have had Beloved57 on ignore for years but I accept that these two sentences are true or the word predestination has no meaning.