A letter about myself

[hollyivy]

You'd do better to study the Bible, anything that doesn't match up isn't true. Like sacraments...

As for your friends telling you that what you do doesn't matter, they're partially right. What you do won't get you to heaven. However, there are some people who are going to get to heaven and there are some people who are gonna come roarin' in with a whole crowd of people, screaming with exhilaration, if you get what I mean.

Before I say too much about sacraments, perhaps I should define what a sacrament is according to Catholic Church. I will quote from a book by Canon Francis Ripley titled, This is the Faith. Then I will put a list of supporting verses together that indeed demonstrate that sacraments come directly out of Scripture.

A Sacrament is an outward sign of inward grace, ordained by Jesus Christ, by which grace is given to our souls. The Sacraments always give grace to those who receive them worthily. The Sacraments have the power of giving grace from the merits of Christ’s Precious Blood, which they apply to our souls. We should have a great desire to receive the Sacraments because they are the chief means of our salvation. A character is given to the soul by the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Orders. A character is a mark or seal on the soul which cannot be effaced, and therefore the Sacrament conferring it may not be repeated. There are seven Sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders and Matrimony.

Catholics speak of matter and form of the Sacraments. This is because a Sacrament is a sign, an external rite. This rite consists of the performing of an action and the saying of words. The action is called the matter of the Sacraments, the words the form. Thus, in Baptism the water and the action of pouring it make up the matter; the words said while that is being done are the form.


Now I will list three of these Sacraments, the grace each sacrament imparts to us, and then supporting bible verses.

There are seven Sacraments. Three of these Sacraments are called Sacraments of Initiation. They are Baptism, Confirmation, and the Holy Eucharist. I simply don’t have enough time to go through all seven at this time, and so will cover the first three, and then the last four at another time.

Baptism The sacrament of Baptism cleanses us from Original Sin and makes us true sons and daughters of God.

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

Please consider the following verses:

Mt 28:19, Mk 16:16, Jn 3:5, Acts 2:38;16:15, 33; 18:8; 22:16, Rom 6:3-4. 1 Cor 1:16; 6;11. Col 2:11-13, Titus 3:5, 1 Pt 3:21.

Confirmation: The Catechism of the Catholic Church has this to say regarding the Sacrament of Confirmation: For by the sacrament of Confirmation, the baptized are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed. CCC 1285

Please consider the following verse:

Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit, for it had not yet fallem upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. When Simon saw that the Spirit was conferred by the laying on of the apostles hands, he offered them money and said, “Give me this power too, so that anyone upon whom I lay my hands may receive the holy Spirit.” Acts 8: 14-19

Other supporting verses are as follows: Wis 9:17, Acts 8:14-19; 13:3; 19:1-6, 2 Cor 1:21-22, Eph 1:13, Heb 6:1-2

The Holy Eucharist: Catholics believe in the real presence of Christ, body, blood, soul, and divinity. There is no greater gift than the worthy participation in the precious body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Church has always believed in the real presence, and the real presence has been the center of Worship for 2,000 years.

To really summarize Scripture and how it relates to the real presence is not possible for me to take up in this post, and so I invite you to study this topic on your own, and I will quote only a few supporting verses.

The Jews quarreled among themselves saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. John 6:53.


Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. John 6:54


Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” John 6:60

As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. John 6:66-68

Please consider the following verses:

Mt 26:26-28, Mk 14:22-24, Lk 22:19-20, Jn 6:47-66, 1 Cor 10:16, 11:23-30.

Now, I would like to say a few things about works. What we do doesn't matter?! Where does the Bible say this? Catholics do not believe, nor have they ever, that works alone are sufficient for ones salvation. Faith is a necessary ingredient. Faith and works are what we believe. We believe that faith alone is not found anywhere in Scripture, but faith and works is supported everywhere. There is not enough time to go over every verse in the Bible that urges us to behave according to the will of God, but I will quote a few here:

Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves James 1:22-25

You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?” James 2:14-26.

I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothes me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and visited me. Mt. 25:31-46

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name? Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.” Mt. 7:21-23

“. . . All who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.” Jn 5:29

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather those who observe the law will be justified. Rom 2:13

. . . The just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works. Rom 2:5-11

If I have faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing? 1 Cor. 13:2-3

“. . . The wages of sin is death” Rom 6:23

For we must all appear before the judgment seat so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.” 2 Cor. 5:10

Once again, time does not allow me to quote all of the verses urging holy behavior. Faith alone? I don’t see it anywhere in the Bible.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Hollyivy,

Have you ever smelled roses (the presence of your Lady)?

 

[hollyivy]

Hollyivy,

Have you ever smelled roses (the presence of your Lady)?

No, I can't say that I have. But, I believe that Mary is the greatest of all of God's creatures and is deserving of our honor. Didn't Christ command us to honor our mothers and fathers, and didn't Jesus honor his own mother while here on earth? I believe that Mary, who bore in her womb the word made flesh, is worthy of veneration as are all of the saints who through their great love for Christ have been recognized by the Catholic Church.

We earnestly desire each of you to demonstrate the same eagerness for the fulfillment of hope until the end. So that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who, through faith and patience, are inheriting the promises Hebrews 6:11-12

What greater way to honor the saints can there be than to imitate them?

Keep in mind, honor is not worship which is reserved for God alone.

What

 

[Choleric]

Now I will list three of these Sacraments, the grace each sacrament imparts to us, and then supporting bible verses.

There are seven Sacraments. Three of these Sacraments are called Sacraments of Initiation. They are Baptism, Confirmation, and the Holy Eucharist. I simply don’t have enough time to go through all seven at this time, and so will cover the first three, and then the last four at another time.

Baptism The sacrament of Baptism cleanses us from Original Sin and makes us true sons and daughters of God.

You are new here, but you have a lot to learn. Hopefully you will try to see the other side of your beliefs.

The baptism that cleanes us from sin and makes us a part of the Body of christ is not water baptism. John made it clear that Jesus was not going to baptize us with water, but with the Holy Ghost:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Notice John makes a distinction specifically between his water baptism and Christ spiritual baptism. We see it later in Paul's writings:

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Notice the Spirit does the baptizing, we are baptized into the Body (not water) and we are all part of one Spirit.

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

You are dealing with a corrupt translation here. The word 'again' is not in the original. There is a reason the RCC wants you using that translation, because it helps reinforce their false doctrines. The KJV says:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The born of water is physical birth, which refers back to Nicodemus' misunderstanding when he asked how he could enter back into his mothers womb. In order to be Born Again, you must have been born once already, that is our natural birth, which comes by water (ie the 'water breaks') This is important because fallen angels cannot be born again because they were never born of water.

Water baptism does nothing for salvation.

We can deal with the rest of your sacraments at a later date, or this would be a thesis and not a post.

Now, I would like to say a few things about works. What we do doesn't matter?! Where does the Bible say this? Catholics do not believe, nor have they ever, that works alone are sufficient for ones salvation. Faith is a necessary ingredient. Faith and works are what we believe. We believe that faith alone is not found anywhere in Scripture, but faith and works is supported everywhere. There is not enough time to go over every verse in the Bible that urges us to behave according to the will of God, but I will quote a few here:

Once again, time does not allow me to quote all of the verses urging holy behavior. Faith alone? I don’t see it anywhere in the Bible.

Faith alone is certainly found in Scripture:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We cannot lose our salvation by sinning because we are dead to the law.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Sin has no more dominion over me.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

I am free from the bondage of fear and am alive under the Spirit of life:

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death

 

[rbdeli]

Choleric;1820691]You are new here, but you have a lot to learn. Hopefully you will try to see the other side of your beliefs

.


who? has a lot to learn? LOL

Everything Holly said is not only supported by the bible, but has been practiced and believed that way for 2008 years.

Your response is your spin, practiced and believed in numerous variations for about 178 years.

 

[rbdeli]

Faith alone is certainly found in Scripture:

Yes, Faith Alone IS found in scripture, and here's where it it is:

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

And James warns that even the Demons believe.
James 2:19
Yes, The Devil has Faith, Alone. Is the devil saved?

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Faith alone? No. This is faith apart from works of the law. Catholics agree with this verse, 100%. We can never be saved by works of the law.

We cannot lose our salvation by sinning because we are dead to the law.

Dead to the law, yes. Dead to living in the spirit, love and will of God? No.

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord – Hebrew 12:14

Faith alone?
Paul says that without holiness, NO ONE will see the Lord. What does he mean by No One? Where is the disclaimer for new age fundamentalists? Does it say, "All those who are believing Jews"? Does it say, "Except for those who are already saved by faith alone"?
Where is the faith alone, here, Choleric?

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.[/COLOR]
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

100% aligned with Catholic Doctrine. We are dead to the law. We do not believe the law can save us. Again, does this say, "Faith Alone"?

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death

Right on the money. Christ has made us free from the law of sin and death. We are not under that law. But does this say because we are under the law, sins no longer count against us? Paul says to believing Christians, that sins are works of the flesh, and that NO ONE will inherit the Kingdom who practices these things. When we do evil, we are not living in the spirit of Christ. Being saved isn't a one shot act of Faith. In fact, Faith means far more than what you want to believe.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul says you have to continue in your faith.
Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Finally, Paul confirms what James said. That is, Faith isn't even the most important part of our response to God's Grace:

and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Cor:13

And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love
1 Cor 13:13


So, to summarize:

• No where in the bible does it say that we are saved by Faith Alone. It says the opposite.
• James warns that even the Devil has Faith. Is Faith Alone enough?
• Paul says that Faith is not even the most important virtue. It's Love.

 

[Prisca]

Welcome, hollyivy! Hope to hear more from you!:wave2:

 

[hollyivy]

This was a double message. I just wanted to delete it, but I don't know how!! help!

 

[hollyivy]

QUOTE FROM CHOLERIC

Faith alone is certainly found in Scripture:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We cannot lose our salvation by sinning because we are dead to the law.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Sin has no more dominion over me.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

I am free from the bondage of fear and am alive under the Spirit of life:
[COLCOLOR="DarkRed"]Gal 2:16 END OF QUOTE FROM CHOLERIC





I am not too good at the computer and am not sure what happened but the top of this post is a quote from Choleric and I am going to address that quote.

First, I would like to say Amen! I believe in all of these verses. We are NOT justified by works of the law. We are under grace. In the Old Testament, we read about a kind of tightening of screws so to speak when the people sinned during the golden calf incident. In addition to the ten commandments, other laws were put into place, for the people could not follow the Lord on their own. These laws are no longer necessary, for now we have laws not on tablets of stone, but written on our hearts. We no longer follow the mosaic laws of the Old Testament that were put into place after the golden calf incident, because we have grace. Are we bound to any kind of law at all now? I believe we are bound to obey Christ. You might even say we are bound to the law of Christ.

Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. Galations 6:2

Furthermore, what is faith? Without works, faith is empty. Faith encompasses works.

and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Cor:13

And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love
1 Cor 13:13




Thanks be to Grace sin indeed has no dominion over us, but we are still free to sin. Where does Paul say, that because we have Grace we will no longer sin. He does not say that anywhere. As a matter of fact, he says we have a choice. We can still be slaves to sin which leads to death. The choice is ours.

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness. Romans 6:15-16


As Christians we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, but our fate is not sealed. We are not forever bound to accept the Grace that has been freely given that God will never take from us. We can reject his gift, or accept it at any time. The choice is ours.

We are indeed alive under the Spirit of life if we so choose to be, but where does the Bible say that we will always CHOOSE to walk in the spirit simply because we have received God's grace?

If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Galatians 5:25

For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. Romans 12:13

Paul is so clear regarding our choice. We choose to live by the Spirit, or according to the flesh. One leads to death, the other to life. Paul does not say anything here about being bound to Heaven, never to choose hell because we have made a promise to dedicate our lives to Christ and accept Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. Furthermore, Paul is not speaking about a thought or a feeling that sits idle inside of one's head. Paul uses the words "live" and "walk" here which indicates an active response from us.

I have tried to address the verses you pose as support for 'faith alone', but you have not addressed the verses I quoted in my last post where Paul urges us to not only have faith but to BEHAVE like Christians. These verses are riddled with warnings for what Christians must DO in order to inherit eternal life. Faith alone? I don't see it anywhere.

Yes, I would absolutely agree with you when you say I have much to learn. However, the things Paul says speak so clearly to me because they are plain and obvious. Paul spoke to Christians who were babes in Christ. They had much to learn and he spoke at their level so that they might understand. So it is with people like me as well.

Also, keep in mind, that the Catholic Church has had over 2,000 years of study in matters of the Holy Bible. I am educating myself on the beliefs of the Catholic Church so these are hardly my own uneducated thoughts.

Now, you speak of baptism, and so I will say just a few things. However, I want to make it real clear, that though I may have lots to learn, I would like to make one thing very clear, and that is that Catholics do not make up Sacraments. The Sacraments we hold dear have been in existence since Christ and we believe they have been brought to us by Christ and come directly from Scripture.

As a Catholic, I get some of my ideas about Baptism from Romans 6. For Paul, baptism is no mere symbol. Baptism transforms a person. The person is buried with Christ, in his death and rises to new life in his Resurrection. (Rom 6:4).

Consider this verse from Galatians.

For as many of you as were baptized in Christ have put on Christ. Galations 3:27

These three little words, "Put on Christ" say volumes. We enter into Christ's death and rise with Him in his resurrection.

This is so with all of the Sacraments. They transform us because we share in Christ's life in the most intimate way.

Now I will quote from a Doctor of the Catholic Church, St. Ambrose, so that you might better understand the Catholic position even if you don't agree with it.

When you plunge into the water you receive the likeness of death and burial. You receive the sacrament of his cross, because Christ was hanged on the corss, and his body was fixed there by nails. And you, when you are crucified, you are joined to Christ; you are joined to the gift of our Lord Jesus Christ (On the Sacraments II.23)

 

[Servo]

Welcome to TOL hollyivy!

A quick question for Catholics....do Catholics believe Mary to be omnipresent?

Also, I know Catholics claim that Mary was sinless, but if that is so, why did she call Jesus her Saviour? What did He save her from exactly?

 

[hollyivy]

Yes, Faith Alone IS found in scripture, and here's where it it is:

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

And James warns that even the Demons believe.
James 2:19
Yes, The Devil has Faith, Alone. Is the devil saved?



Faith alone? No. This is faith apart from works of the law. Catholics agree with this verse, 100%. We can never be saved by works of the law.




Dead to the law, yes. Dead to living in the spirit, love and will of God? No.

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord – Hebrew 12:14

Faith alone?
Paul says that without holiness, NO ONE will see the Lord. What does he mean by No One? Where is the disclaimer for new age fundamentalists? Does it say, "All those who are believing Jews"? Does it say, "Except for those who are already saved by faith alone"?
Where is the faith alone, here, Choleric?




100% aligned with Catholic Doctrine. We are dead to the law. We do not believe the law can save us. Again, does this say, "Faith Alone"?




Right on the money. Christ has made us free from the law of sin and death. We are not under that law. But does this say because we are under the law, sins no longer count against us? Paul says to believing Christians, that sins are works of the flesh, and that NO ONE will inherit the Kingdom who practices these things. When we do evil, we are not living in the spirit of Christ. Being saved isn't a one shot act of Faith. In fact, Faith means far more than what you want to believe.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul says you have to continue in your faith.
Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Finally, Paul confirms what James said. That is, Faith isn't even the most important part of our response to God's Grace:

and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Cor:13

And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love
1 Cor 13:13


So, to summarize:

• No where in the bible does it say that we are saved by Faith Alone. It says the opposite.
• James warns that even the Devil has Faith. Is Faith Alone enough?
• Paul says that Faith is not even the most important virtue. It's Love.

I would like to add that it is no wonder Luther disputed th Epistle of James and wanted it removed. But if that wasn't bad enough, he himself admitted adding the word "alone" to the following verse:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law Romans 3:28

 

[hollyivy]

Welcome to TOL hollyivy!

A quick question for Catholics....do Catholics believe Mary to be omnipresent?

Also, I know Catholics claim that Mary was sinless, but if that is so, why did she call Jesus her Saviour? What did He save her from exactly?

We believe Mary is in Heaven interceding for all of us right here and now and fulfilling her role from the begining, which was and always has been, to bring us all to her Son.

You could say that Mary was saved from original sin. We believe that Mary, unlike all others who came after Eve, had no sin on her soul. This is all thanks be to the savior she agreed to bear in her womb. She is considered the second Ark of the Covenant. She carried the word made flesh in her womb and she was the perfect temple for the Lord. She was part of God's plan from the begining.

I have begun reading a book called Catholic for a Reason II/Scripture and the Mystery of the Mother of God This would be a wonderful book for learning why Catholics venerate Mary.

 

[Choleric]

I am not too good at the computer and am not sure what happened but the top of this post is a quote from Choleric and I am going to address that quote.

When trying to quote a post, click the quote button. If you want to break up a post, you can put the word 'quote' in brackets [likethis]in front of the section and then put '/quote' in brackets [/likethis] behind it. It will then look

like this

First, I would like to say Amen! I believe in all of these verses. We are NOT justified by works of the law. We are under grace. In the Old Testament, we read about a kind of tightening of screws so to speak when the people sinned during the golden calf incident. In addition to the ten commandments, other laws were put into place, for the people could not follow the Lord on their own. These laws are no longer necessary, for now we have laws not on tablets of stone, but written on our hearts. We no longer follow the mosaic laws of the Old Testament that were put into place after the golden calf incident, because we have grace. Are we bound to any kind of law at all now? I believe we are bound to obey Christ. You might even say we are bound to the law of Christ.

Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. Galations 6:2

We are indeed under a law, but it is not the law of sin = death which we find in the OT law. We are free from that and alive to the law of the Spirit of Life. That means sin cannot condemn us any longer. We are free from the consequences of sin. If we were not, then we would still be under that OT law of sin and death. We cannot be under both at the same time.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Furthermore, what is faith? Without works, faith is empty. Faith encompasses works.
and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Cor:13
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love
1 Cor 13:13

That is great, no problem with that, but it does not say anything about damnation or hell here. It only exhorts us to love.

Thanks be to Grace sin indeed has no dominion over us, but we are still free to sin. Where does Paul say, that because we have Grace we will no longer sin. He does not say that anywhere. As a matter of fact, he says we have a choice. We can still be slaves to sin which leads to death. The choice is ours.

If you are free from sin, you are no longer a slave to sin. You can choose to walk after the flesh, but sin is no longer your master if you are saved. It simply isn't so. Read Romans 7 KJV. Sin only has dominion over us as long as we live, but since we were crucified with Christ, we are no longer under the law and we are free from sin.

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience which leads to righteousness. Romans 6:15-16

Continue reading here. Verse 17 says the most important part:

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

If you are saved, you are no longer a slave to sin. In verse 16, Paul is speaking of pre-conversion. that is why he says 'Thank God, you are no longer a slave to sin.' He does not say they ought to try not to be a slave to sin, but he says that they are not a slave to sin. There is nothing to do here. It is a fact.

As Christians we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, but our fate is not sealed. We are not forever bound to accept the Grace that has been freely given that God will never take from us. We can reject his gift, or accept it at any time. The choice is ours.

We are indeed alive under the Spirit of life if we so choose to be, but where does the Bible say that we will always CHOOSE to walk in the spirit simply because we have received God's grace?

If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Galatians 5:25

You are asking some good questions here. Remember, every word of Scripture is important. In Galatians, Paul is saying 'you are in the spirit, so walk accordingly.'

You cannot, as a believer, choose whether or not to be alive in the Spirit. That is a condition that does not change. You can, however, choose to walk after the Spirit or after the flesh. That is a HUGE difference. Paul is not telling them to do something here, he is explaining their position and is trying to get them to understand they are new creatures in Christ. He is not telling them to work, just believe what God has done.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. Romans 12:13

Paul is so clear regarding our choice. We choose to live by the Spirit, or according to the flesh. One leads to death, the other to life. Paul does not say anything here about being bound to Heaven, never to choose hell because we have made a promise to dedicate our lives to Christ and accept Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. Furthermore, Paul is not speaking about a thought or a feeling that sits idle inside of one's head. Paul uses the words "live" and "walk" here which indicates an active response from us.

Keep everything in context. Paul is not saying if you sin you go to hell. Death and hell are not the same. Look a couple verses back:

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Here Paul says that if the Spirit of God is in you, he will raise you up just as he raised up Christ. We see in 1 Cor, dealing with sinning Christians, that they are still in the Body, but God is chastising them, and some of them unto death. If Christ chastises you, you are a son, if not a bastard. 1 Cor 11:30-32 KJV.

I have tried to address the verses you pose as support for 'faith alone', but you have not addressed the verses I quoted in my last post where Paul urges us to not only have faith but to BEHAVE like Christians. These verses are riddled with warnings for what Christians must DO in order to inherit eternal life. Faith alone? I don't see it anywhere.

Christian are called to live a life of holiness, being conformed to Christ-likeness. Paul never tells anyone at any point that they must do anythign to inherit eternal life. Paul exhorts us to live respectable in the flesh, but never threatens anyone with hell for not doing it. You are not saved by not sinning, but by faith in the finished work of Christ. You don't stay saved by not sinning, but by the power of God.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Yes, I would absolutely agree with you when you say I have much to learn. However, the things Paul says speak so clearly to me because they are plain and obvious. Paul spoke to Christians who were babes in Christ. They had much to learn and he spoke at their level so that they might understand. So it is with people like me as well.

Paul does not, at any place in any letter tell people to not sin or be damned. It simply isn't there. I look forward to helping you see his letters with fresh perspective.

Also, keep in mind, that the Catholic Church has had over 2,000 years of study in matters of the Holy Bible. I am educating myself on the beliefs of the Catholic Church so these are hardly my own uneducated thoughts.

This is the same catholic church that tells us we can pay indulgences to get people out of purgatory, which doesn't exist.

Now, you speak of baptism, and so I will say just a few things. However, I want to make it real clear, that though I may have lots to learn, I would like to make one thing very clear, and that is that Catholics do not make up Sacraments. The Sacraments we hold dear have been in existence since Christ and we believe they have been brought to us by Christ and come directly from Scripture.

As a Catholic, I get some of my ideas about Baptism from Romans 6. For Paul, baptism is no mere symbol. Baptism transforms a person. The person is buried with Christ, in his death and rises to new life in his Resurrection. (Rom 6:4).

Consider this verse from Galatians.

For as many of you as were baptized in Christ have put on Christ. Galations 3:27

Look closely at the verse Holly. What were we baptized into? Was it water or something else?

Remember what John the Baptist said:

Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

John made delineation between his water baptism and the baptism of Christ. Also, keep in mind what Paul said in 1 Cor 12:13

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
We are baptized by the Spirit (not by a man as in John's baptism), we are baptized into the Body of Christ (not into water as in John's baptism). Every word is important.

Baptism is indeed important, but not water baptism. Water baptism has nothing to do with salvation.

This is so with all of the Sacraments. They transform us because we share in Christ's life in the most intimate way.

Now I will quote from a Doctor of the Catholic Church, St. Ambrose, so that you might better understand the Catholic position even if you don't agree with it.

When you plunge into the water you receive the likeness of death and burial. You receive the sacrament of his cross, because Christ was hanged on the corss, and his body was fixed there by nails. And you, when you are crucified, you are joined to Christ; you are joined to the gift of our Lord Jesus Christ (On the Sacraments II.23)

He is right that all that happens when we are baptized, but it is not into water. It is into the Body of Christ. :cloud9:

 

[hollyivy]

Quote From Choleric We are indeed under a law, but it is not the law of sin = death which we find in the OT law. We are free from that and alive to the law of the Spirit of Life. That means sin cannot condemn us any longer. We are free from the consequences of sin. If we were not, then we would still be under that OT law of sin and death. We cannot be under both at the same time. End Quote from Choleric.



Please look Galatians 3:24-25. Here, Paul refers to the Torah as a pedagogue. It is my understanding that a pedagogue, in Paul’s day, was like a nanny and a tutor both. He followed a child all day teaching him how to behave and how to read. Once the child reached a certain age, he no longer needed a pedagogue. We, have been blessed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, and so no longer need the law of the Old Testament. We, as Christians, are like children who have matured.

I have reflected upon the differences between then and now, and what the law meant then and what it means now, and I have mulled it over and over again in my mind. I have come to a couple of conclusions. First, I don’t believe that the focus should be on the law itself, so much as it should be on us. When reflecting upon the differences between then and now, it is the difference in us that really counts. We’ve changed, but the will of the Lord has not. I agree that we cannot be under what you refer to as the Spirit of Life and the OT law at the same time. To try and bind oneself to the Old Testament law is to deny the Holy Spirit.

I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no better than a slave, though he is the owner of all the estate; but he is under guardians and trustees until the date set by the father. So with us; when we were children, we were slaves to the elemental spirits of the universe. But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” so through God, you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir. Galatians 4:1-7

The people of the Old Testament were like a child in need of a pedagogue. The law itself was good. It’s purpose was holy. The people, however, were not able to follow the law. Therefore, for them, there was no choice, they were bound to their sins. Through the death and resurrection of Christ, however, God sent help in the form of the Holy Spirit. We now have to ability to obey God, because we have Grace and therefore we have the law inscribed, not on tablets of stone, but on our hearts.

We no longer have to engage in sin to the point of death, but this in no way means that we are free from the consequences of sin. This is where you and I really disagree. Unlike, the people of the Old Testament, we are free to make righteous choices now because we have the Holy Spirit to help guide us. However, we are also free to make wrong choices. If we choose evil over good, we pay the price no matter how many times we profess our faith. As far as accepting the Lord as our Personal Savior goes, accepting the Lord involves an active response from us and our acceptance can be big or small and we get exactly what we put into our relationship with Christ.

Once again, I must point out Paul’s message regarding our choices and how we indeed bear the pains of our sins and the fruits of our righteousness.

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were commited, and having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:16-18

Paul says right here, and he is as clear as can be, that we can engage in sin that leads to death. He doesn't say that saved Christians will never engage in this sort of sin, he says instead, that we are slaves to the one we obey. He doesn't say that we will never pay the consequences for sinning. Now, it is true that we are free from the consequences of sin if we don't sin, but if we sin, death is a pretty serious consequence that we might pay. Now, I want to be perfectly clear here. We will sin, and God will still love us, and we can forever restore our relationship with him at any time, so sin doesn't necessarily lead to death. But Paul says it can if we so choose. We can sin to the point of death. We can be slaves to sin.

Those who have become obedient from the heart, have been set free. But it was through obedience that they attained that freedom. And that obedience comes from the heart because they now have the law inscribed on their hearts. Paul in no way suggests, however, that those obedient will automatically remain obedient. As a matter of fact, he says the opposite.

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery. Galatians 5:1

Paul is speaking to Christians here. He is telling them to stand fast and not to submit again to the yoke of slavery.

If Christians are saved, once and for all, never to fall again under the yoke of slavery, why must Paul urge them to stand fast. Notice, he uses the word 'again" suggesting that they were slaves to sin at one time, no longer are, but can indeed fall into slavery 'again'.

We are slaves of the one we obey. Being set free from sin simply means that we are no longer bound to sin. That was not true for the people of the Old Testament. They could not follow God without serious help and the mosaic laws put into place after the gold calf incident just weren't cutting it. There was nothing wrong with the law itself. The people just weren't able to obey the law and continued to fall out of favor with God. The Torah was meant to be temporary and not nearly as effective as the Holy Spirit. God had plans for our final earthly passing into freedom. Through the gift of the Holy Spirit, we now have a choice to bind ourselves to Christ without the mosaic law of the Old Testament and enjoy our place in the family of God.

I think this is all very interesting. We read about the golden calf incident, for example, and we see that even though the Israelites are led out of Egypt to journey toward the promised land they can’t accept their newfound freedom and they bind themselves to the ways of Egypt, enslaving themselves to their old way of life. Over and over again, they enslave themselves by disobeying the law, and only God, through the gift of his son, is finally able to lead them, once and for all, to true freedom. It simply was not possible for them to obey God on their own without the gift of God’s own son.

Like a child in need of a pedagogue, it is not possible for that Child to do what he needs to do on his own until he reaches maturity. As Christians, we have reached that maturity so to speak. Now we have hearts made for God, and we know right from wrong through the guidance of the Holy Spirit we hold inside of our hearts.

Once again, the law is good and holy and through the Spirit we can fulfill the Torah.

For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word. "You shall love your neighbor as yourself Galatians 5:13-15

Why in the world is Paul urging his Christian brethren to use their freedom wisely if they are already saved never again to be bound to the slavery of sin? Furthermore, this verse suggests that the Torah itself is good and holy for Paul says that the whole law can be fulfilled by loving your neighbor as yourself. To love your neighbor as yourself requires work, and not faith alone. I just don't think we should get hung up on the law itself and how we no longer need the written laws and sacrificial rituals, but we should focus on whether or not, through our actions, we fulfill the law. It is apparent, that though we have everything we need to be free, we must never take for granted that we will not fail.

I can't address your entire post right now as I just don't have time and every little thing you say propells me to respond in length. I am very interested, however, in considering everything you say here, and hope to respond soon.

 

[Spitfire]

A quick question for Catholics....do Catholics believe Mary to be omnipresent?

Not in the sense that God is omnipresent but, in that she is in Heaven, she is not constrained by space and time as are those here on Earth.

Also, I know Catholics claim that Mary was sinless, but if that is so, why did she call Jesus her Saviour? What did He save her from exactly?

Mary was sanctified in the womb of her mother as was Jeremias the prophet and John the Baptist. However, Heaven was still closed to those sanctified to God in this manner until Christ's passion was complete.