All Things come with Christ !

[Clete]

@JudgeRightly



No it isnt



I know, but hes saying they were reconciled to God while enemies, unbelievers, by the death of Christ



Yes " the reconciled by His death, being reconciled, shall be saved by His Life !

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.



It is limited atonement, simply put those who Christ died for are #1 reconciled to God while still being enemies and #2 The reconciled shall be saved by His Life.

And you and i both dont believe in universalism, at least I dont. So there you have it, limited atonement. But my point is, these are things that come with Christ dying for one.



Thats a different discussion for now, however I have delved into that passage in my thread :

Reconciled to God while enemies !

Rom 5:10 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. All for whom Christ died, have been reconciled to God, by His death alone, not by their obedience, not by their faith, not by their...

theologyonline.com

In this post, b57 demonstrates his proclivity toward lying. He hasn't done this in some time and so I had hoped he had repented of such practices but he's fallen off the wagon with this post when he suggests that the only logical alternative to Limited Atonement is Universalism. He knew that wasn't at all the truth when he wrote it, and yet he wrote it anyway. This sort of tactic isn't needed when your doctrine is true nor is it even thought of by honest people when they are confident of the truth of their doctrine in their own mind.

So, is it that b57 isn't as convinced as he pretends, is he simply a liar or is it a bit of both?

Actually, I see no real evidence that he isn't fully engulfed into Calvinist doctrine. I see no evidence at all that he would ever allow his mind to even contemplate that Calvin got even one syllable of his doctrine wrong. He MIGHT not be willing to go so far as to say that Calvin's writings were divinely inspired but, if pressed, he'd not be able to tell you where Calvin made any error. In short, I doubt very much that there's even one iota of doubt about the doctrine in b57's mind and so I don't think it's a bit of both at all. He's a liar, pure and simple.

Clete

 

[Clete]

Loaded question.

Paul is talking ABOUT BELIEVERS, TO BELIEVERS.

He is talking about "WE (believers) who have been reconciled, WE shall be saved by His life.

Not "the reconciled shall be saved by His life."

WE believers ARE reconciled, but you want to assume thats' the only thing that matters, because of your a priori belief in Limited Atonement.

P.S. This is made even clearer in 2 Corinthians 5:

Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. - 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians5:18-21&version=NKJV

God . . . has given us (believers) the ministry of reconciliation.

God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself.

God has committed to us (believers) the word of reconciliation (the gospel).

We (believers) are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us (believers)! "BE RECONCILED to God!

Your beliefs preclude Paul from even uttering those words, because He puts the responsibility on the unbeliever to "be reconciled to God."

Brilliant brilliant post, JR!

Do you suppose that the concept of God PLEADING through us just flew right over b57's head or do you think he got the point and simply ignored it? I mean you even put it in bold AND underlined it, not to mention how you highlighted the word "WORLD" and yet, he just blew it completely off as "a different discussion" as though the "ministry of reconciliation" didn't even pertain to the topic of "reconciliation"! Instead, he chose (or was it predestined?) to post a link to a thread with more than 500 posts in it, like anyone's going to go dig up whatever convoluted nonsense he wrote about it at some unknown point in the last decade since the thread was started.

What a buffoonish clown he is.


@beloved57,

What does the word "pleading" mean in the Calvinist lexicon of the English language?

 

[JudgeRightly]

@JudgeRightly

You need to just use the "+Quote" button.

No it isn't

Yes, it is, by definition, because it's asked in a certain way that, no matter how it's answered, presupposes at least one unverified assumption (that "reconciled" = saved) that the person being questioned is likely to disagree with.

That's why I answered the way I did, and didn't answer like how you wanted it to be answered, how @Hoping answered it.

Answering with "they will be saved" as Hoping did affirms your presupposition that "all who are reconciled will be saved," when that's not what Scripture says.

Paul says "we" will be saved by His life, because we are reconciled.

But it's not just "we who are reconciled." "We" have also believed, while the WORLD (as mentioned in my previous post) has not. "We" are/were part of the "world" that was reconciled, but there's an additional condition not mentioned in Romans 5:10 that IS mentioned elsewhere in scripture, which your presupposition contradicts, but that you ignore or perhaps aren't aware of, or can't see because of your a priori Calvinistic beliefs, that condition being "one must believe to be saved." (Romans 10:8-13; Ephesians 2:8-9)

In other words, "[We who have believed] who have been reconciled shall be saved by His life.

We were enemies because we were part of the world. While we were enemies, God reconciled THE WORLD through Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:18-21) That included us, before we believed. Then once we believed, "we shall be saved by His life," because we have been reconciled.

The entire world has been reconciled, but only those who believe shall be saved by His life.

I know,

Your question presupposes that "believers" are the only one reconciled, which isn't what Scripture says.

In other words, you may know it, but you don't understand it.

"Believers" are a subset of the world. The world (including believers) was reconciled by Christ.

"We who were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" having BEEN reconciled, "shall be saved by His life!"

This is EXACTLY what Paul is talking about in Romans 10:

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. - Romans 10:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:9-10&version=NKJV

To tie it all together:

"For if when [we believers] were [part of the world], [the people of the world including believers] were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, [believers] shall be saved [through believing God's raising Jesus from the dead]."

It's literally that simple!

but he's saying they were reconciled to God while enemies, unbelievers, by the death of Christ

Correct, because God has reconciled the world, unbelievers, whom believers used to be, to Himself through Jesus Christ, because Christ went to the cross!

Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. - 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians5:18-19&version=NKJV

In other words:

Now all things are of God, who has reconciled [believers, because they were part of the world He reconciled] to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing [the world's] trespasses to [the world], and has committed to [believers] the word of reconciliation.

It's that simple!

Yes " the reconciled by His death, being reconciled, shall be saved by His Life!

NO.

"WE who have been reconciled."

Not "the reconciled."

WE = believers

BELIEVERS who have been reconciled shall be saved by His life, by grace through faith....

By God's grace, His gift which He has given to us, God reconciling the world to Himself, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, and having been reconciled, WE, through faith, through believing that God has raised Him from the dead, shall be saved by His life, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast!

In other words:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:8-9&version=NKJV

That's how simple it is!!!!

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

AMEN!

WE who have been reconciled, through our believing that God has raised Jesus from the dead, shall be saved by His life! NOT because belief is meritorious, but because faith is the vehicle, the means, through which grace is given, and applied to our accounts!

It is limited atonement,

No, it's not.

simply put those who Christ died for are #1 reconciled to God while still being enemies and #2 The reconciled shall be saved by His Life.

Except that it's not just "the reconciled."

Remember, Paul stated VERY CLEARLY that THE WORLD was reconciled by God, not just believers.

The difference is that WE ARE BELIEVERS, the rest of the world is NOT!

It is through our belief that we are saved, not because we have earned it, but because God gives grace to the humble!

And you and i both dont believe in universalism, at least I dont.

Neither do I!

So why even bring it up, except to poison the well against what I'm saying, calling what I'm saying "universalism"!?

YES, God reconciled the entire world. NO, that does not mean that the entire world will be saved.

But that's EXACTLY what your belief means, if it were perfectly consistent with scripture, because Paul said explicitly that God reconciled the world, AND YOU SAY that ALL THE RECONCILED will be saved by His life!

So there you have it, limited atonement.

You're presenting a false dichotomy!

The choices are not JUST "limited atonement or universalism"!

The third option, which you intentionally ignore, which I have been trying to get you to acknowledge for however long, is that Scripture says that God reconciled the world, but that only those who believe shall be saved, which is NEITHER limited atonement NOR universalism.

God's grace is universal in it's scope, in that it's offered to the world, but limited in its application, to those who believe!

But my point is, these are things that come with Christ dying for one.

Christ died FOR THE WORLD.
God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD to Himself.

THOSE WHO BELIEVE, who have been reconciled because they were part of the world Christ died for, whom God was in Christ reconciling, shall be saved by His Life!

That's a different discussion for now,

No, it's not a different discussion!

It is DIRECTLY APPLICABLE to Romans 5:10, 10:9-13, and Ephesians 2:8-9!

however I have delved into that passage in my thread:

As Clete said above, NO ONE is interested in reading through 560 posts in a different thread when the discussion is being had here and now.

 

[beloved57]

Now what are a few of the things that come with Christs death for us, that's freely given along with Him to us, if He in deed died for us ? With Him comes sanctification. Christs death for one is accompanied with sanctification Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The testimony of this scripture is by or through Christ death, here described as " the offering of the body ofJesus Christ" we are sanctified, this means more than just set apart, it also means:

to purify by expiation, free from the guilt of sin: to purify internally by reformation of soul

So any sinner Christ died for will have and experience sanctification. With this experience of internal sanctification comes faith and or belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[JudgeRightly]

Brilliant brilliant post, JR!

Thank you.

Do you suppose that the concept of God PLEADING through us just flew right over b57's head or do you think he got the point and simply ignored it? I mean you even put it in bold AND underlined it, not to mention how you highlighted the word "WORLD" and yet, he just blew it completely off as "a different discussion" as though the "ministry of reconciliation" didn't even pertain to the topic of "reconciliation"! Instead, he chose (or was it predestined?) to post a link to a thread with more than 500 posts in it, like anyone's going to go dig up whatever convoluted nonsense he wrote about it at some unknown point in the last decade since the thread was started.

What a buffoonish clown he is.

Not to mention, "reconciliation" makes no sense WITHOUT there being a willingness on the part of man to reconcile, which is exactly why Paul said, PLEADS, even, "Be reconciled!"

@beloved57,

What does the word "pleading" mean in the Calvinist lexicon of the English language?

He won't answer this, but if he does, he'll dismiss it in some way as not being important, or not relevant.

 

[Clete]

He won't answer this, but if he does, he'll dismiss it in some way as not being important, or not relevant.

How could he answer it?

It is, for them, just one more word, one more concept, that has no meaning when applied to God.

 

[marke]

Now what are a few of the things that come with Christs death for us, that's freely given along with Him to us, if He in deed died for us ?

Reconciliation to God. Thats right, accompanying the giving of Christ is reconciliation to God, thats a free gracious act Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

This is very enlightening. Even when we are unbelieving enemies, Christs death hath reconciled us to God. Even before those Christ died for are born into this world, Christs death hath done its job, and reconciled us to God, if He indeed died for us.

God reconciled the world to Himself by Jesus's death on the cross and commanded His disciples to go into all the world to preach the gospel to every creature commanding all men everywhere to repent and to be reconciled to God.

 

[beloved57]

marke

God reconciled the world to Himself by Jesus's death on the cross

The world Christ reconciled to God by His death, scripture says, they shall be saved by His Life Eom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That comes with Christ !

 

[JudgeRightly]

The world Christ reconciled to God by His death, scripture says, they shall be saved by His Life

Not what it says, B57,

It says "WE" shall be saved by His life, NOT "the world" shall be saved by his life.

God RECONCILED THE WORLD, but ONLY we WHO HAVE BELIEVED shall be saved by his life.

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That comes with Christ !

You keep ignoring the "we."

 

[beloved57]

Christ being your Saviour !

When Christ died and rose again, for the sins of of every sinner He died for, He officially, befittingly became their Saviour Acts 5:30-31

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins

So with Christ, for them He died comes the indisputable reality that He is the Prince and Saviour, and with that fact also comes two blessings, #1 Repentance and #2 Forgiveness of sins !

 

[beloved57]

Christ being your Saviour ! 2

We know that repentance is a key component in the Salvation of a sinner, and yet we see here that ingredient has been procured by the death of Christ, and He gives or bestows it upon the objects of His death. The word give here is the greek word didōmi:

1. to give
2. to give something to someone
   1. of one's own accord to give one something, to his advantage
      1. to bestow a gift
   2. to grant, give to one asking, let have
   3. to supply, furnish, necessary things

both here in Acts 5:31 and Acts 11:18 where the word is translated granted

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

The word means "to cause to repent"

This comes from the New Covenant blessings announced here Ezk 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[Clete]

Why oh why doesn't b57 tell you the rest of the story?

Those that Calvin's god doesn't "cause to repent" go on doing what Calvin's god predestined they would do anyway. Then, when they die, they are sent to eternal punishment for doing the very things that they did not choose to do but which sprang from the fountainhead that is god's own mind and immutably determinate will.

b57 here is simply talking about the more pleasant side of his unjust god which works out great for all those people who won the cosmic lottery but not so good for the vast majority which his god could have saved had it pleased him to do so, but it didn't so, too bad. Instead, it pleased b57's god to created evil people to do evil things so that he could go get tortured and killed and then magically turn some of the evil people into good people.

If the evil people are only evil because god made then evil and there is no reason why god chose to save the one's he decided to save, which is precisely what b57 believes (he doesn't deny it at all) then there was no reason for god to suffer a torturous death either. It's all just one big jumble of arbitrary actions by an impassible (emotionless) god. A blasphemous conception of god that has exactly nothing at all to do with anything taught in the bible, regardless of b57's pedantic proof-texting.

Anyone who believes in an unjust god believes in a god that does not exist.

 

[beloved57]

Christ being your Saviour ! 3

And with repentance comes Faith, when God gives one, He gives the other, both are required to be saved, and since Christ is the Savior, He gives them both Acts 20:21

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 12:3


For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Again they obtained Faith through the righteousness of God and Saviour Jesus Christ. That means faith was given them from their Saviour

 

[Clete]

Christ being your Saviour ! 3

And with repentance comes Faith, when God gives one, He gives the other, both are required to be saved, and since Christ is the Savior, He gives them both Acts 20:21

21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 12:3


For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Again they obtained Faith through the righteousness of God and Saviour Jesus Christ. That means faith was given them from their Saviour

Except it doesn't say that!

Take the Romans 12 verse, for example. It has nothing to do with what b57 is talking about here.....

​

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.​

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.​

​

You see how the meaning becomes clear when you read more than one sentence and make no attempt to squeeze your doctrine into the text?!

Paul here is telling believers not to get all prideful based on whatever function one is fulfilling within the church. Paul doesn't consider himself superior to any other believer based on his office as an apostle and nor should one feel superior to any other because one is in a position of leadership and another is not. One's function in the Body of Christ is between him and Christ and you aren't better or worse than anyone else based on the gifts and talents you either have or don't have.

Paul is making here, the same point he made in the 12th chapter of I Corinthians...

I Corinthians 12:1 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.​

15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?​

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no [h]schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.​

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.​

13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.​

​

And so it goes with all such Calvinist proof-texting. I've said it thousands of times and I say it here again. Calvinism is false. It is not taught ANYWHERE in the bible and those who believe what it actually teaches, that God is arbitrary (i.e. unjust) are not Christians in the biblical sense of the word and are not saved because they worship the god of Aristotle and Plato and have put their faith in a god the DOES NOT EXIST.

Clete

 

[Clete]

Let's talk a bit more about Romans 12!

The first verse of Romans 12 is one of my favorites. If any of you have read my essay entitled, "Our Moral God", you'll remember that I focused a lot of attention on the Greek word "Logos" and how it does not mean "word", it means "reason". I wish that I had thought at the time to mention Romans 12:1 because it really helps a lot to establish that as fact. Perhaps I'll do a rewrite of that essay and figure out a way to include it.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.​

​

The word translated "reasonable" here is the Greek word logikos and "reasonable" is a good translation. "Rational" might be a better translation but "reasonable" is, well, reasonable. In fact, the NKJV actually points to a foot note that suggests "Rational" as an alternative translation. Now, logikos and logos aren't the same word, you might be thinking, and you'd be right, they aren't the same word but they are very closely related. In fact, the two words have exactly the same relationship as do "logic" and "logical" or "reason" and "reasonable" one is a noun, the other and adjective but otherwise, they are dealing with the same concept. It helps to see the two words side by side in actual Greek....

λόγος (Logos)
λογικός (Logikos)

If you click on those words, it will take you to Strong's Concordance where you'll learn not only what the words mean but how they are translated throughout the bible. Strong's points out that logos is the root word for logikos and so this isn't just me shooting my own mouth off there. These terms are really and truly related to one another and proves that the point I made in my essay about the meaning of logos was correct. Incidentally, reading Strong's entry on the word Logos, we find that the root of Logos is Lego, which is the Greek word that would have been present in Romans 1 had "word" been the correct English translation.

This whole topic is, as you can tell, one of my very favorite things to talk about and I just love the fact that, of all the passages that b57 could have chosen to try to prop up his wholly contradictory doctrine with, he could hardly have picked one that is more ironic than Romans 12:1.

Clete