Am I saved from the Christian point of view?

[Yorzhik]

Dear Clete,

Thank you for your reply. As you know, I sometimes have trouble interpreting your answers. And I think that I've got too many questions going here, so maybe it will be easier for you if I stick to just one simple question which stems from the statement on the list which is:

• We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.

You did write a few sentences in reply to question #2:

So the list is not talking about physical death. Physical death is appointed, but it is the judgement, the condemnation that we all deserve. So although the common meaning of the word "death" is physical death, the list uses the word to mean eternal suffering in hell.

So your answer to some of the questions seems to be that nobody deserves physical death, it's just "appointed". But isn't physical death a consequence of sin? Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden and as a result, they and their descendants must die. Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned...". Here Paul is talking about physical death. There was no old age and physical death originally in the Garden, but as a consequence of their sin, they were subject to old age and physical death. Old age and physical death then spread to all their descendants because they also sinned. Thus it would seem that everyone deserves physical death. As JudgeRightly said in an earlier post: "Thus, the payment for your sins in order to balance the ledger, so to speak, is death. The only thing that will balance the ledger is death. In other words, you're a dead man walking! The only reason you're not in the grave already is because God is merciful." So everyone deserves physical death, no?

Thanks for any reply,
Gary

Generally "death" means "separation", or makes more sense when read that way.

 

[Clete]

Dear Clete,

Thank you for your reply. As you know, I sometimes have trouble interpreting your answers. And I think that I've got too many questions going here, so maybe it will be easier for you if I stick to just one simple question which stems from the statement on the list which is:

• We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.

You did write a few sentences in reply to question #2:

So the list is not talking about physical death. Physical death is appointed, but it is the judgement, the condemnation that we all deserve. So although the common meaning of the word "death" is physical death, the list uses the word to mean eternal suffering in hell.

The list uses the word to mean what it means. I will not let you reframe my list into some sort of endorsement of a pet doctrine of yours. It was not a commentary on the nature of Hell but on the condemnation of one's soul. At the very least the death I'm talking about is a permanent separation from God. Rebellion against life = death.

So your answer to some of the questions seems to be that nobody deserves physical death, it's just "appointed".

No. Stop trying to read into my posts. I said what I said. I didn't imply, insinuate or speak in some sort of secret code. Respond to what I say, not whatever you feel like reading into what I post.

But isn't physical death a consequence of sin? Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden and as a result, they and their descendants must die. Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned...". Here Paul is talking about physical death.

Paul is not merely talking about physical death.

There was no old age and physical death originally in the Garden, but as a consequence of their sin, they were subject to old age and physical death.

Adam and Eve were likely only in the garden about a week but I agree, there would not have been any geriatric process happening in Eden.

Old age and physical death then spread to all their descendants because they also sinned. Thus it would seem that everyone deserves physical death.
As JudgeRightly said in an earlier post: "Thus, the payment for your sins in order to balance the ledger, so to speak, is death. The only thing that will balance the ledger is death. In other words, you're a dead man walking! The only reason you're not in the grave already is because God is merciful." So everyone deserves physical death, no?

Thanks for any reply,
Gary

Not "deserve" in the sense of some sort of corporal punishment. It's simply a consequence. If you rebel against the God who is Life itself, the result is death. It's not rocket science.

I never encountered anyone who was this stuck on the idea that physical death was sort of sentence that has been imposed upon us as though we are all criminals who have committed a capital crime such as murder or sodomy. We are NOT talking about some sort of cosmic criminal justice system. At least not in the sense you seem to be coming from here.
I just cannot understand what's so hard to understand about the idea that rebelling against the very source of life is going to lead to your death. How could that not make simple intuitive sense to anyone who understands how to speak?

Let's say someone invented a super smart toaster that decided it didn't want to be limited to sitting on the kitchen counter by the length of the power cord any longer and so proceeded to unplug itself from the wall as a first step toward a move into the living room. What would happen? Would it's inventor need to inflict death on the toaster as some sort of corporal punishment or would it just happen on its own?

If you drink poison, is your death some sort of punishment or isn't it rather just the natural consequence of doing something contrary to life?

Clete

 

[Clete]

Good point. Maybe the "list" should be edited to reflect greater clarity.

I think it's clear enough as it is. No matter how its worded, those who want to pick nits will do so.

 

[garyflet]

It isn't physical death that we're talking about, Gary.

So I responded that the list is not talking about physical death.

The list uses the word to mean what it means. I will not let you reframe my list into some sort of endorsement of a pet doctrine of yours.

I'm sorry I misinterpreted your statement above to mean that it wasn't physical death you were talking about. I make a lot of mistakes like that!

No. Stop trying to read into my posts. I said what I said.

Yes, you said, "It isn't physical death that we're talking about Gary".

I didn't imply, insinuate or speak in some sort of secret code. Respond to what I say, not whatever you feel like reading into what I post.

Yes, you said, "It isn't physical death that we're talking about Gary".

But I don't want to misinterpret your posts. You can help me interpret you correctly with a straightforward answer the question that I asked at the end of my previous post: " So everyone deserves physical death, no?"

Not "deserve" in the sense of some sort of corporal punishment. It's simply a consequence. If you rebel against the God who is Life itself, the result is death.

I don't care if it's in the form of corporal punshment or not. I don't care if it's a consequence or not. All I care about is the answer to the question: " So everyone deserves physical death, no?"

It's not rocket science.

It really isn't rocket science. Your list is clear: everyone deserves death (which would include physical death, of course). The Bible is clear: Death, (including physical death and old age) entered the world as a consequence of Adam and Eve disobeying God. God removed them from the Garden and changed their bodies to grow old and die because they sinned. And God would not do that had they not deserved it. God is just. Simple and clear.

I never encountered anyone who was this stuck on the idea that physical death was sort of sentence that has been imposed upon us as though we are all criminals who have committed a capital crime such as murder or sodomy. We are NOT talking about some sort of cosmic criminal justice system. At least not in the sense you seem to be coming from here.

Why so complicated? Forget about me, what do you say: Do people deserve physical death or not?

I just cannot understand what's so hard to understand about the idea that rebelling against the very source of life is going to lead to your death. How could that not make simple intuitive sense to anyone who understands how to speak?

Why so complicated? Forget about me, what do you say: Do people deserve physical death or not?

Let's say someone invented a super smart toaster that decided it didn't want to be limited to sitting on the kitchen counter by the length of the power cord any longer and so proceeded to unplug itself from the wall as a first step toward a move into the living room. What would happen? Would it's inventor need to inflict death on the toaster as some sort of corporal punishment or would it just happen on its own?

Why so complicated? Do people deserve physical death or not?

Thanks for any substantive reply,
Gary

 

[Clete]

I don't care if it's in the form of corporal punshment or not. I don't care if it's a consequence or not. All I care about is the answer to the question: " So everyone deserves physical death, no?"

I answered that question directly.

It really isn't rocket science. Your list is clear: everyone deserves death (which would include physical death, of course). The Bible is clear: Death, (including physical death and old age) entered the world as a consequence of Adam and Eve disobeying God. God removed them from the Garden and changed their bodies to grow old and die because they sinned. And God would not do that had they not deserved it. God is just. Simple and clear.

Sin changed their bodies, not God.

The ways in which God changed Eve's body had to do with extending the time of gestation so that new born babies would better survive in the world outside of Eden.

Why so complicated? Forget about me, what do you say: Do people deserve physical death or not?

Asked and answered.

 

[garyflet]

Hi Clete ,

Well, when interpreting what the Bible is saying, @JudgeRightly earlier answered the question quite clearly.

Those who sin justly deserve death. Thus, the payment for your sins in order to balance the ledger, so to speak, is death. The only thing that will balance the ledger is death. In other words, you're a dead man walking! The only reason you're not in the grave already is because God is merciful.

I agree entirely with JudgeRightly's statement. In short, we all deserve physical death! Physical death is a consequence of our sins and we deserve physical death. Do you agree?

You wrote an analogy about a toaster who pulls out his own plug. I'm not sure how the analogy helps because the toaster didn't sin. People can sin and thus deserve a punishment.

You wrote: "Not "deserve" in the sense of some sort of corporal punishment. It's simply a consequence." Whether it's a consequence or not doesn't make any difference as to whether it's something someone deserves. One can easily think of cases in which a consequence of an action is not deserved and cases in which a consequence of an action is deserved. I'm using "deserve" in the sense of someone who sins deserves punishment. Or just like JudgeRightly says above, "the payment for your sins ....is death."

You wrote: "I never encountered anyone who was this stuck on the idea that physical death was sort of sentence that has been imposed upon us as though we are all criminals who have committed a capital crime such as murder or sodomy." We are all sinners, not criminals, who deserve physical death. Don't you agree?

JudgeRightly, what do you say?

Thanks,
Gary

 

[Clete]

Hi Clete ,

Well, when interpreting what the Bible is saying, @JudgeRightly earlier answered the question quite clearly.

I agree entirely with JudgeRightly's statement.

So do I.

In short, we all deserve physical death!

Not in the way you mean it, we do not.

Physical death is a consequence of our sins and we deserve physical death. Do you agree?

Physical death is a consequence of sin, not OUR sin, but sin in general. Your car stops when the fuel runs out. Do you DESERVE to be stranded on the side of the road? The room goes dark when the power is cut off. Do you deserve to stub your toe on the coffee table? Do smokers DESERVE lung cancer?

You wrote an analogy about a toaster who pulls out his own plug. I'm not sure how the analogy helps because the toaster didn't sin. People can sin and thus deserve a punishment.

The analogy is nearly perfect. You, as I have repeatedly told you, simply do not know what you're talking about.

Sin is that which leads to death. Any action you take that is not conducive to life is sin. In the case of a toaster, it's nature is such that electrical power is its life. A toaster that unplugged itself would have committed a toaster "sin" in the doing of it.

You wrote: "Not "deserve" in the sense of some sort of corporal punishment. It's simply a consequence." Whether it's a consequence or not doesn't make any difference as to whether it's something someone deserves.

Of course, this is false! Do you think that things are true just because you state them as fact?

One can easily think of cases in which a consequence of an action is not deserved and cases in which a consequence of an action is deserved.

Contradict yourself much?

I'm using "deserve" in the sense of someone who sins deserves punishment.

Yes, I know that.

Or just like JudgeRightly says above, "the payment for your sins ....is death."

There is more than one kind of death. You do have to spend some amount of effort to remain on the same page that God is on when reading the bible. Acknowledging that He exists is a necessary first step.

You wrote: "I never encountered anyone who was this stuck on the idea that physical death was sort of sentence that has been imposed upon us as though we are all criminals who have committed a capital crime such as murder or sodomy." We are all sinners, not criminals, who deserve physical death. Don't you agree?

How many times are you going to ask the same question?

People who deserve to be physically killed are those who have committed a capital crime. We live in a world that is marred by sin. It is precisely the people who least deserve to physically die, who would rather not remain among the physically living!

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.​

You cannot comprehend such a statement! You're so focused on death and don't even understand what life is nor where it comes from but want to show up here to lecture Christians about who does and doesn't deserve death and the how unjust God is! It's a laughable joke!

Clete

 

[garyflet]

I wrote: "In short, we all deserve physical death!"

Not in the way you mean it, we do not.

Well, all I can do is tell you my position. If I say, "I take position x", and you say, "No you don't, you take a different position", there's not much I can say, is there? If you show me in anything that I've written that you interpret as being opposed to JudgeRightly's statement, please point it out. I'm not nearly so perfect as you are, and can make mistakes and learn from them!

Physical death is a consequence of sin, not OUR sin, but sin in general.

Now this is different from JudgeRightly's statement: "Those who sin justly deserve death. Thus, the payment for your sins in order to balance the ledger, so to speak, is death." JudgeRightly does not say that the payment for "not our sin, but sin in general" is death, he says the payment for "your sins" is death. We are each responsible for OUR sins. What you are doing here is obfuscation. Instead of explaining your position clearly, something that admittedly may be impossible, you throw out obscure one-liners without explanation.

Your car stops when the fuel runs out. Do you DESERVE to be stranded on the side of the road? The room goes dark when the power is cut off. Do you deserve to stub your toe on the coffee table? Do smokers DESERVE lung cancer?

Yes, when you use poor judgement, you are to some degree responsible if things go wrong. But if the question is about sin and God and there is no ambiguity. When you sin, the payment is death. We all agree on that. This appears to be more obfuscation. Why not explain your position with some exposition, instead of little tidbits?

In my previous post I wrote, "Whether it's a consequence or not doesn't make any difference as to whether it's something someone deserves", "it" being an action someone performs.

Of course, this is false!

No, it is true. For example, suppose a soldier sees a hand grenade fall at his feet with a lot of his buddies around, and he falls on it to protect them. The consequence of his action results in his death, but it is not something he deserves.

Do you think that things are true just because you state them as fact?

No, if I make a statement that needs clarification or argument I will follow the statement with supportive comments. I thought my statement so obvious that it didn't need any supportive comments. Obviously, I was wrong there!

There is more than one kind of death.

Yes, we have talked extensively about physical death and the spiritual death of hell. This discussion is about physical death.

People who deserve to be physically killed are those who have committed a capital crime.

So someone who deserves physical death does not deserve to be physically killed? JudgeRightly's statement says that I am a "dead man walking". That phrase is about a prisoner who has been sentenced to death walking to his place of execution. Thus his statement is that I'm in the same position as a person that deserves (as far as society can determine) and is about to be physically killed. And the only reason I'm not in the grave already is because of God's mercy, not because I deserve to live! Maybe you don't agree with JudgeRightly's statement after all?

I'm getting the impression that possibly what you mean is that people who have sinned deserve mortality. That makes the distinction between deserving death now as opposed to deserving death at some indefinite time in the future. In other words, people who have sinned deserve death eventually. Now I have noticed that you have a very strong reaction generally when I try to interpret what you are saying. Try to remain calm! It's only a suggestion!

We live in a world that is marred by sin. It is precisely the people who least deserve to physically die, who would rather not remain among the physically living!

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.​

You cannot comprehend such a statement!

Well, it sounds to me that the thought of being with Christ is pretty wonderful for Paul, so wonderful that he would almost rather die than stay living, but remains living to help others. I think Paul is a wonderful example of dedication. What's so difficult to comprehend? The Bible is a great book!

You want to show up here lecture Christians about who does and doesn't deserve death and the how unjust God is! It's a laughable joke!

I wish someone would "lecture" me in the way that you say I'm lecturing you. I'm merely questioning things that you believe, quoting your authority, the Bible, wondering how it is all consistent. I sure wish someone would "lecture" me in that way! I like to have my ideas tested by others.

As far as saying how unjust God is, I never said that. I said that it's hard to understand how a punishment of eternal torment is proportional to the small number of sins one can commit in a finite lifetime. You can't hurt someone else for eternity, you can't hurt God for eternity. And I, and the many Bible verses I quoted, have an answer for that! God is the one that can "destroy body and soul in Gehenna", not the one that will keep people suffering there forever. The are many verses in the gospels about how hell is a place of death and destruction, and not one about it being a place of eternal torment. There is the one verse about it being "eternal punishment", but that can be interpreted to mean that the death of the sinner is not going to be reversed, there will be no resurrections from hell for all eternity. Also, at the time, Jews believed that at the last judgment, God was going to destroy all enemies and the righteous would live in the perfect world He had originally planned. The righteous would be resurrected and live without any pain, misery or suffering in utopia. The wicked would be resurrected as well, but only to face judgement, after which they were destroyed for all time, without hope of another resurrection. That is the "eternal" part of eternal punishment. I don't believe that Jesus upped the punishment to eternal torment, and the Gospels are consistent with this interpretation. God is not unjust!

Is it a "laughable joke" for scholars who are not Muslim to study the Quran, other Muslim writings and talk to Muslims themselves? You must not have an opinion on any other religion!

Note that it's possible that you might even learn some things from me! I remember when I first talked about hell, "burning in fires, furnaces, being thrown into a lake of fire", etc., that you thought I got my impression of hell from some medieval texts, or maybe Dante (actually Dante's first circle of hell seems pleasant, as opposed to anything in the Bible), when actually all my references about hell came straight from the Bible! And I'll bet not everyone here knew that the word in the original Greek that's translated into "hell", doesn't bear any resemblance to the modern popular conception of hell. You ought to be thankful for my contributions, as I am thankful for the things I've learned from you.

Now since you are all Bible experts, you no doubt know that the gospels are not consistent with the date of Christ's execution. Mark says that Jesus and the disciples had the Passover meal as the Last Supper. Jesus is crucified the next morning at 9 o'clock. But John says that the Last Supper occurred the day before Passover, and Jesus was crucified the next afternoon at "about noon". By the time of the Passover meal, according to John, Jesus was dead! I would be interested in your thoughts about this discrepancy. I'd be glad to tell you mine...

Regards,
Gary

 

[JudgeRightly]

Now this is different from JudgeRightly's statement: "Those who sin justly deserve death. Thus, the payment for your sins in order to balance the ledger, so to speak, is death."

No, it's not different from what I said. Clete and I are in complete agreement on this topic, as far as you should be concerned.

JudgeRightly does not say that the payment for "not our sin, but sin in general" is death, he says the payment for "your sins" is death.

Part of the problem is that you still don't seem to understand the difference between spiritual death and physical death.

Paul said, "the wages of sin is death," and, "all have sinned," therefore "as in Adam all die." Adam was told by God, regarding the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, "in the day you eat of it, you shall surely die." God wasn't lying. The day Adam ate the fruit, he did indeed die, but he lived for another 930 years. Likewise, when any of Adam's descendants sin, we die, because we have partaken of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the law has killed us, for "the law (the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) kills."

None of this is talking about physical death.

Adam was cast out of the garden because he broke God's law, he sinned. He was cut off from having a relationship with God.

He was, like the prodigal son was to his father, dead.

That's spiritual death.

Physical death, on the other hand, is the consequence of Adam's sin, which in being cut off from the Garden of Eden, was also cut off from the Tree of Life, which, as far as I can tell, was what would restore the human body from the effects of entropy on the human body. Those effects are the cause of most physical death, while the rest is due, directly or indirectly, due to spiritual death.

We are each responsible for OUR sins.

Correct. You are responsible for your sins. The problem is that you cannot pay the debt incurred by those sins. Your only hope to escape hellfire is to turn to God and ask for His forgiveness.

So someone who deserves physical death does not deserve to be physically killed?

No. Someone who deserves, ie who is worthy of, spiritual death, ie those who have sinned, does not NECESSARILY deserve to be physically killed. Big difference.

JudgeRightly's statement says that I am a "dead man walking."

Because you are.

You are spiritually dead, yet still walking around, physically alive, awaiting final judgement.

You should repent, and ask God for forgiveness so that you can escape that judgement.

That phrase is about a prisoner who has been sentenced to death walking to his place of execution.

Correct.

As Jesus said as recorded by John, "he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Thus his statement is that I'm in the same position as a person that deserves (as far as society can determine) and is about to be physically killed. And the only reason I'm not in the grave already is because of God's mercy, not because I deserve to live!

Right here is the disconnect you have.

I am NOT talking about physical death, despite me using a physical example of death.

God is the Judge, in what I said. You are already condemned because you have broken His law, and because you do not believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior.

The grave you are not already in is not talking about the physical grave, where your body is buried 6 feet underground. No, the grave here is Hell.

The only reason you're not in Hell ("the grave") already is because God is merciful. You DON'T deserve to live (spiritually), because you have indeed broken God's laws.

All it takes for you to be saved by God is for you to turn to Him and ask for forgiveness of your sins. He already gave His life for you, because He loves you enough to not want you to burn in Hell for eternity, but His patience for you WILL run out eventually. Don't wait until it's too late!

Maybe you don't agree with JudgeRightly's statement after all?

Again, Clete and I are in full agreement on this topic.

As far as saying how unjust God is, I never said that. I said that it's hard to understand how a punishment of eternal torment is proportional to the small number of sins one can commit in a finite lifetime. You can't hurt someone else for eternity, you can't hurt God for eternity.

You ought to be thankful for my contributions,

You ought to not be so arrogant.

Now since you are all Bible experts,

We're not Bible experts. Have never claimed to be. We simply know God's word.

you no doubt know that the gospels are not consistent with the date of Christ's execution. Mark says that Jesus and the disciples had the Passover meal as the Last Supper. Jesus is crucified the next morning at 9 o'clock. But John says that the Last Supper occurred the day before Passover, and Jesus was crucified the next afternoon at "about noon". By the time of the Passover meal, according to John, Jesus was dead! I would be interested in your thoughts about this discrepancy. I'd be glad to tell you mine...

Start a new thread.

 

[Rhema]

Now since you are all Bible experts, you no doubt know that the gospels are not consistent with the date of Christ's execution. Mark says that Jesus and the disciples had the Passover meal as the Last Supper. Jesus is crucified the next morning at 9 o'clock. But John says that the Last Supper occurred the day before Passover, and Jesus was crucified the next afternoon at "about noon". By the time of the Passover meal, according to John, Jesus was dead! I would be interested in your thoughts about this discrepancy. I'd be glad to tell you mine...

If you start a new thread, (as I see you've been commanded to) let me know.

 

[Rhema]

I am NOT talking about physical death, despite me using a physical example of death.

That does seem rather confusing, though.

 

[Rhema]

Adam was told by God, regarding the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, "in the day you eat of it, you shall surely die."

From what I know of Hebrew, a more accurate rendition would be, "dying thou doest die."

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it—dying thou dost die.'​

(Genesis 2:17 YLT)

For in the day of thine eating of it - thou startest to dieth. In the LXX, the verb is written in the future tense rather than the aorist so I don't think one can stipulate that physical death would be immediate. I don't find that the either the Hebrew or Greek supports that view of immediacy.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[JudgeRightly]

That does seem rather confusing, though.

Only if you've never used a metaphor before....

For example, "Let's hit the road" doesn't mean you literally go out to the highway and punch it with your fist...

 

[JudgeRightly]

From what I know of Hebrew, a more accurate rendition would be, "dying thou doest die."

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it—dying thou dost die.'​

(Genesis 2:17 YLT)

For in the day of thine eating of it - thou startest to dieth. In the LXX, the verb is written in the future tense rather than the aorist so I don't think one can stipulate that physical death would be immediate. I don't find that the either the Hebrew or Greek supports that view of immediacy.

Thanks,
Rhema

The fact remains: Adam was indeed cut off from immediate access to God. "Cut off" is also a figure of speech in the Bible for death, by the way.

Just as the prodigal son was dead to his father, so too humans are dead to God when they sin. Just as the prodigal son returned to his father, and acknowledged his wrong, so too humans should return to God and ask for forgiveness. Just as the father of the prodigal son said "my son was dead, but now he is alive," so too the same can be said of those who return to God, because He is life itself, and those who have access to life are alive.

 

[Clete]

I wrote: "In short, we all deserve physical death!"

Well, all I can do is tell you my position. If I say, "I take position x", and you say, "No you don't, you take a different position", there's not much I can say, is there? If you show me in anything that I've written that you interpret as being opposed to JudgeRightly's statement, please point it out. I'm not nearly so perfect as you are, and can make mistakes and learn from them!

True, you aren't nearly as perfect as I am.

The difference between what I do and what you do is that I make arguments and you present opinions based on nothing. You're aren't even a believer, Gary! Do really expect for me to be biblically substantive or to take your opinions seriously?

Yes, when you use poor judgement, you are to some degree responsible if things go wrong.

I didn't say anything about poor judgment. That's THE SPECIFIC reason that I gave more than one example so as to at least attempt to avoid you adding something stupid like "poor judgment".

I see that I gave you far too much credit. My bad! Won't happen again.

But if the question is about sin and God and there is no ambiguity. When you sin, the payment is death. We all agree on that. This appears to be more obfuscation. Why not explain your position with some exposition, instead of little tidbits?

Because you're the enemy. I don't treat enemies as though they are members of my family. I have no reason to toss valuable pearls into your pigsty.

No, it is true.

No! It is false! I explained why. You're saying otherwise doesn't make it so.

Yes, we have talked extensively about physical death and the spiritual death of hell. This discussion is about physical death.

Not if you constantly want to reference my list of doctrines, it isn't. Not, at least, in the way you're attempting to apply it, anyway.

So someone who deserves physical death does not deserve to be physically killed? JudgeRightly's statement says that I am a "dead man walking". That phrase is about a prisoner who has been sentenced to death walking to his place of execution. Thus his statement is that I'm in the same position as a person that deserves (as far as society can determine) and is about to be physically killed. And the only reason I'm not in the grave already is because of God's mercy, not because I deserve to live! Maybe you don't agree with JudgeRightly's statement after all?

It will forever confuse you, Gary. I don't know how many times I have to tell you the same thing. YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!!

You're the 3rd grader trying to argue about algebra. You're the Mennonite trying to figure out how a fuel injector works. You're the Amazonian jungle savage trying to explain that noisy thing that just flew over the trees.

And, since you seem to have difficulty with understanding analogies, it isn't that you're stupid, it's that you do not have the requisite foundation from which to even form an opinion on these issues. You flat out DO NOT KNOW what you're talking about.

I'm getting the impression that possibly what you mean is that people who have sinned deserve mortality.

No. They deserve to be separated from God. A point I've already explained quite clearly. God is life. Separation from God is separation from life. Separation from life is death. Therefore, separation from God is death.

Well, it sounds to me that the thought of being with Christ is pretty wonderful for Paul, so wonderful that he would almost rather die than stay living, but remains living to help others. I think Paul is a wonderful example of dedication. What's so difficult to comprehend? The Bible is a great book!

You haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about! That and you ignore good points when they conflict with whatever idiotic direction you're trying to go. You'll never convince me you didn't understand the point as it relates to physical death.

I wish someone would "lecture" me in the way that you say I'm lecturing you. I'm merely questioning things that you believe, quoting your authority, the Bible, wondering how it is all consistent. I sure wish someone would "lecture" me in that way! I like to have my ideas tested by others.

Stupidity.

As far as saying how unjust God is, I never said that.

Yes you did, Gary. Please try to remember that the entire thread is still here for the entire world to read. There was a whole discussion about how you were frightened to death as a child by the idea of spending eternity is torment, blah, blah, blah and how you don't see how anything you or anyone really, who is sent to Hell deserves to be tortured forever blah, blah, blah (i.e. that God is unjust).

No, that isn't a direct quote but that was the point your were making and everyone here knows it, including you.

I said that it's hard to understand how a punishment of eternal torment is proportional to the small number of sins one can commit in a finite lifetime.

You just said - ONE SENTENCE AGO - that you didn't say this!

You can't hurt someone else for eternity, you can't hurt God for eternity. And I, and the many Bible verses I quoted, have an answer for that! God is the one that can "destroy body and soul in Gehenna", not the one that will keep people suffering there forever. The are many verses in the gospels about how hell is a place of death and destruction, and not one about it being a place of eternal torment. There is the one verse about it being "eternal punishment", but that can be interpreted to mean that the death of the sinner is not going to be reversed, there will be no resurrections from hell for all eternity. Also, at the time, Jews believed that at the last judgment, God was going to destroy all enemies and the righteous would live in the perfect world He had originally planned. The righteous would be resurrected and live without any pain, misery or suffering in utopia. The wicked would be resurrected as well, but only to face judgement, after which they were destroyed for all time, without hope of another resurrection. That is the "eternal" part of eternal punishment. I don't believe that Jesus upped the punishment to eternal torment, and the Gospels are consistent with this interpretation. God is not unjust!

You don't even believe that God exists, Gary! What are you even talking about? Why would ANYONE care what you think about what Hell is or isn't? You don't believe that it exists at all!

Not only that but I've already rendered any such belief about eternal torment moot by simply stating that whatever it is that you get from God, you will get it because you deserve it and you will agree that you deserve it! A point that you have NO MEANS whatsoever to refute, either biblically or philosophically without rendering your own opinion on the matter moot!

Is it a "laughable joke" for scholars who are not Muslim to study the Quran, other Muslim writings and talk to Muslims themselves? You must not have an opinion on any other religion!

No self-respecting Muslim would grant me the time of day in a debate about the nature and teachings of Islam! ANYTHING I said that was contrary to his doctrine he would simply dismiss as the rantings of a infidel. You've gotten ten miles further with me than you ever would with practically ANY Muslim.

Note that it's possible that you might even learn some things from me!

Broken clocks and all that, eh? Not the least bit interested. Like I told you early on, I'm not even close to my own standard of what constitutes an expert and I've already forgotten more about the bible than you'll ever learn. You don't even have the rational grounds to make a first baby step!

I remember when I first talked about hell, "burning in fires, furnaces, being thrown into a lake of fire", etc., that you thought I got my impression of hell from some medieval texts, or maybe Dante (actually Dante's first circle of hell seems pleasant, as opposed to anything in the Bible), when actually all my references about hell came straight from the Bible!

No they didn't. And I didn't think that you had gotten them from Dante but rather the people who taught you did or perhaps the people who taught them. The point was that you were talking about a fictional version of Hell, not were you personally learned it from.

And I'll bet not everyone here knew that the word in the original Greek that's translated into "hell", doesn't bear any resemblance to the modern popular conception of hell.

Contradict yourself much?

The "modern popular conception of Hell" comes mainly from authors like Dante.

You ought to be thankful for my contributions, as I am thankful for the things I've learned from you.

I'm thankful for the opportunity to either set you free from your ignorance or cement you into it.

Now since you are all Bible experts, you no doubt know that the gospels are not consistent with the date of Christ's execution.

You have got to be kidding me!
You are so close to going on my ignore list.

Mark says that Jesus and the disciples had the Passover meal as the Last Supper. Jesus is crucified the next morning at 9 o'clock. But John says that the Last Supper occurred the day before Passover, and Jesus was crucified the next afternoon at "about noon". By the time of the Passover meal, according to John, Jesus was dead! I would be interested in your thoughts about this discrepancy. I'd be glad to tell you mine...

No.

 

[Rhema]

Only if you've never used a metaphor before....

For example, "Let's hit the road" doesn't mean you literally go out to the highway and punch it with your fist...

So what's a meta for? (Typically an attempt to clarify an idea that often just creates more confusion.)
"Let's hit the road" would be an idiom, though, not a metaphor.

The fact remains: Adam was indeed cut off from immediate access to God.

But by his own choosing, no?

"Cut off" is also a figure of speech in the Bible for death, by the way.

I thought it was descriptive of circumcision, although it's used more so for "shunning."

Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.​

(Exodus 4:25 KJV)

Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.​

(Leviticus 7:27 KJV)

Just as the prodigal son was dead to his father,

Maybe I'm just easily confused, but if the prodigal son was dead to his father, I doubt he would have waited at the gate every day.

And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.​

(Luke 15:20 KJV)

so too humans should return to God and ask for forgiveness

Why? Christians think their sins were paid for.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Because you're the enemy. I don't treat enemies as though they are members of my family.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.​

(Matthew 5:44-45 KJV)

 

[Rhema]

You're the Mennonite trying to figure out how a fuel injector works.

Mennonites know how fuel injectors work.
So do the Amish.
I have a goodly number of friends in both sects.
(You?)

 

[Rhema]

They deserve to be separated from God.

Well I'm sure glad that God doesn't believe that.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.​

(John 3:17 KJV)

 

[Clete]

So what's a meta for? (Typically an attempt to clarify an idea that often just creates more confusion.)
"Let's hit the road" would be an idiom, though, not a metaphor.

It's both. It is a metaphorical idiom.