An Atheist's Misinterpretation

[George Affleck]

In his book "The Atheist’s Introduction to the New Testament: How the Bible Undermines the Basic Teachings of Christianity", Mike Davis says that, for him, the deciding factor about Christianity came down to Matthew 24:34.

If Jesus was Divine, He would not have made this prediction which obviously did not come true 1900 years ago. Either the Bible is untrustworthy or Jesus was wrong. Because of this the case against Christianity is "closed".

I, of course, like the KJV so here it is:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Was Jesus a false prophet?

 

[daqq]

In his book "The Atheist’s Introduction to the New Testament: How the Bible Undermines the Basic Teachings of Christianity", Mike Davis says that, for him, the deciding factor about Christianity came down to Matthew 24:34.

If Jesus was Divine, He would not have made this prediction which obviously did not come true 1900 years ago. Either the Bible is untrustworthy or Jesus was wrong. Because of this the case against Christianity is "closed".

I, of course, like the KJV so here it is:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Was Jesus a false prophet?

It cannot properly be understood without going back into Torah and Prophets.
How can all of these following statements be true?

Exodus 20:5 KJV
5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exodus 34:6-7 KJV
6. And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7. Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:18 KJV
18. The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Deuteronomy 5:9 KJV
9. Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Deuteronomy 24:16
16. The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1. The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
2. What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3. As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 KJV
19. Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Uh-oh, I see new covenant language in the Ezekiel 18:2 passage above.

Jeremiah 31:29-31 KJV
29. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

There is only one way all of the above can be true, (and it is all true) . . .

 

[MichaelCadry]

George Affleck & Michael

George Affleck & Michael

In his book "The Atheist’s Introduction to the New Testament: How the Bible Undermines the Basic Teachings of Christianity", Mike Davis says that, for him, the deciding factor about Christianity came down to Matthew 24:34.

If Jesus was Divine, He would not have made this prediction which obviously did not come true 1900 years ago. Either the Bible is untrustworthy or Jesus was wrong. Because of this the case against Christianity is "closed".

I, of course, like the KJV so here it is:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Was Jesus a false prophet?

Dear George Affleck,

Hi!! It's been a bit. Hope you're doing well!! I must tell you, from what I KNOW, Jesus said this because He meant this generation of Adam and Eve. From Adam & Eve until Jesus' Second Coming is One Generation {See Rev. 20:4,5,6KJV} "But the rest of the dead did not live AGAIN until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." The next generation will be prior to the Second Death. There will be no other generations on Earth after that. The Earth will see a Second Death, not a Third. Perhaps I haven't been clear enough here. If you don't understand what I'm saying here, let me know in a PM. George, I'm not talking about or allotting for 2nd, 3rd generations of men, because they are minor, compared to the major Generation. Tell you're friends about all of this. There is your answer right there. If you need anything else, let me know.

May God Always Bless The Fruit You Bring Forth To Him!!

Michael

:angel: :angel: :cloud9: :rapture: :thumb:

 

[csuguy]

In his book "The Atheist’s Introduction to the New Testament: How the Bible Undermines the Basic Teachings of Christianity", Mike Davis says that, for him, the deciding factor about Christianity came down to Matthew 24:34.

If Jesus was Divine, He would not have made this prediction which obviously did not come true 1900 years ago. Either the Bible is untrustworthy or Jesus was wrong. Because of this the case against Christianity is "closed".

I, of course, like the KJV so here it is:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Was Jesus a false prophet?

You must consider the surrounding text in which the verse appears to understand who "this generation" is. Consider the immediate context of the verse:

“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Matthew 24:32-35
​

You assume that "this generation" refers to whom he is immediately speaking. However, as we see above, he says this within the context of the parable of the fig tree. He says that "when you see these things" - that is when you see these signs and events which he above describes as the beginning of birth pains - that then you will "know that it is near, right at the door." And it is "THIS generation who will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened," that is to say, the generation who sees these signs.

Furthermore, the rest of the chapter goes onto describe the fact that no one knows the day nor the hour when these things will occur - not even the angels in heaven or the Son, but only the Father - only God Almighty himself. It would be quite foolhardy to say that no one knows this, not even the son - yet then try to say that the Son gave a deadline of the immediate generation.

There are false prophets who have tried to rebut that while we might not be able to pinpoint the day or the hour that we can know the week, month, year, etc. when these things will occur - but I don't think anyone can honestly read that passage and come to the conclusion that it was intended to merely restrict the precision of calculating when these things will occur. Rather the spirit of the verse is that it is beyond us to know when these things will occur until they start occurring - and even then, only if you have been persevering and keeping watch.

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. Matthew 24:42-44​

 

[chair]

...
There is only one way all of the above can be true, (and it is all true) . . .

OK. Tell us: How can all of the above be true?

 

[daqq]

OK. Tell us: How can all of the above be true?

There are four "generations" to the first "age" of every man; like the four season in a full year: Autumn, Winter, Spring, and the Summer of your harvest. The fourth beast of the man, (like an Assyrian fig branch) is the last generation of the first age of the man. Those which shall be accounted worthy to obtain the next age, (each in his or her own mo`adim-appointed times) and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Neither can they die any more; for they are isangeloi, and they are sons of Elohim, being sons of the resurrection.

Proverbs 30:11-15 KJV
11. There is a generation [1] that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
12. There is a generation [2] that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
13. There is a generation, [3] O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
14. There is a generation, [4] whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, [Daniel 7:7] to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.
15. The horseleach [5] hath two daughters, [6-7] crying, Give, give. There are three things that are never satisfied, yea, four things say not, It is enough:

Matthew 12:38-45 KJV
38. Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation [1] seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, [2] and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, [3] and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation [4].

There are examples of such typology abounding, (because of Yeshua).

 

[PureX]

In his book "The Atheist’s Introduction to the New Testament: How the Bible Undermines the Basic Teachings of Christianity", Mike Davis says that, for him, the deciding factor about Christianity came down to Matthew 24:34.

If Jesus was Divine, He would not have made this prediction which obviously did not come true 1900 years ago. Either the Bible is untrustworthy or Jesus was wrong. Because of this the case against Christianity is "closed".

I, of course, like the KJV so here it is:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Was Jesus a false prophet?

You're not providing enough information. Why did the author think that quote was significant? Why did he think it proved a fallacy?

Also, what does Jesus being a "prophet" have to do with anything? Christianity puts an end to all that laws and prophesy stuff, doesn't it?

 

[chair]

There are four "generations" to the first "age" of every man; like the four season in a full year: Autumn, Winter, Spring, and the Summer of your harvest. The fourth beast of the man, (like an Assyrian fig branch) is the last generation of the first age of the man. Those which shall be accounted worthy to obtain the next age, (each in his or her own mo`adim-appointed times) and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Neither can they die any more; for they are isangeloi, and they are sons of Elohim, being sons of the resurrection....

If you find this convincing- good for you. To me it looks like, for lack of a more polite term, nonsense. .

 

[Hawkins]

In terms of prophesying, the main role of a prophet is to for tell what will come soon as he can comprehend, and for God to make use of the same prophecy to predict a future much further away.

When Daniel talks about the Kings, he may well refer to a scenario which he can foresee, but for God to apply the same prophecy to the far end where the judgment will occur.

Since Jesus is both, He can prophesy what would happen in AD 70 and then apply the same prophecy to the far end when He will physically come the second time.

 

[Desert Reign]

It cannot properly be understood without going back into Torah and Prophets.
How can all of these following statements be true?

There is only one way all of the above can be true, (and it is all true) . . .

OK. Tell us: How can all of the above be true?

I wouldn't have bothered to ask. The mere fact that he said it shows that he delights in attention-seeking and I try not to oblige. I am not interested in mysteries but in openness.

Dear George Affleck,

Hi!! It's been a bit. Hope you're doing well!! I must tell you, from what I KNOW, Jesus said this because He meant this generation of Adam and Eve.

Unfortunately, this explanation suffers from a serious error of logic. Because in order to make a meaningful statement you must distinguish certain things from certain other things. But if Jesus meant the whole of mankind from Adam then his statement is just a truism that this generation will end when it ends.

You must consider the surrounding text in which the verse appears to understand who "this generation" is. Consider the immediate context of the verse:

“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Matthew 24:32-35
​

You assume that "this generation" refers to whom he is immediately speaking. However, as we see above, he says this within the context of the parable of the fig tree. He says that "when you see these things" - that is when you see these signs and events which he above describes as the beginning of birth pains - that then you will "know that it is near, right at the door." And it is "THIS generation who will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened," that is to say, the generation who sees these signs.

Unfortunately, this explanation suffers from a similar deficit as that of Michael Cadry above. Clearly Jesus says 'When you see these things'. So I don't see how you can say in the same breath that he is referring to some future generation when the events are going to happen and then overlook that he is speaking to the present generation. The cataclysmic events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad are easily enough to explain the language Jesus uses. And although this would support a preterist viewpoint, it doesn't prove a preterist viewpoint as there are other ways of looking at it. But the idea that Jesus was prophesying the fall of Jerusalem in 70 ad. is natural and well attested.

Jesus said many things which are not recorded in the Gospels and I am not saying that the preterist viewpoint is correct. Perhaps both the long and the short period return of Jesus were taught. And it is an obvious driver in Christian thought and ethics that there will be a final judgement. Jesus' warnings to flee Jerusalem were acted on by the early Christians and it seems obvious to me that Jesus' warnings must have, for that reason, been specific enough to be of value to them. But as the years go on and ten thousand interpretations have been given of how his words would apply to each present generation throughout history, the predictions of Jesus seem less and less meaningful and I think it would be entirely reasonable to conclude that they were not meant for us at all.

 

[RevTestament]

Clearly Jesus says 'When you see these things'. So I don't see how you can say in the same breath that he is referring to some future generation when the events are going to happen and then overlook that he is speaking to the present generation. The cataclysmic events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad are easily enough to explain the language Jesus uses. And although this would support a preterist viewpoint, it doesn't prove a preterist viewpoint as there are other ways of looking at it. But the idea that Jesus was prophesying the fall of Jerusalem in 70 ad. is natural and well attested.

That alone is insufficient to discount the interpretation of CSUguy, which I find to be quite plausible. If the English read "that" generation, he would clinch it. The Hebrew language structure also does exactly what CSUguy is suggesting.

Further, the "you" which you are stressing as being only the current generation quickly falls apart when compared to other passages:

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Is He really saying He will only be with those He was speaking to in person til the end of the world?

 

[RevTestament]

You must consider the surrounding text in which the verse appears to understand who "this generation" is. Consider the immediate context of the verse:

“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Matthew 24:32-35
​

You assume that "this generation" refers to whom he is immediately speaking. However, as we see above, he says this within the context of the parable of the fig tree. He says that "when you see these things" - that is when you see these signs and events which he above describes as the beginning of birth pains - that then you will "know that it is near, right at the door." And it is "THIS generation who will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened," that is to say, the generation who sees these signs.

Furthermore, the rest of the chapter goes onto describe the fact that no one knows the day nor the hour when these things will occur - not even the angels in heaven or the Son, but only the Father - only God Almighty himself. It would be quite foolhardy to say that no one knows this, not even the son - yet then try to say that the Son gave a deadline of the immediate generation.

There are false prophets who have tried to rebut that while we might not be able to pinpoint the day or the hour that we can know the week, month, year, etc. when these things will occur - but I don't think anyone can honestly read that passage and come to the conclusion that it was intended to merely restrict the precision of calculating when these things will occur. Rather the spirit of the verse is that it is beyond us to know when these things will occur until they start occurring - and even then, only if you have been persevering and keeping watch.

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. Matthew 24:42-44​

:thumb:
I quite like this possibilities of this specific interpretation since it follows a Hebrew speech pattern of identifying who the pronoun or what an adverb is qualifying. So it makes since that "this" future generation of the leaves of the branch is what He is referring to.

He could also be referring to the generation of the earth itself in the sense that Genesis 2:4-5 KJV does or as a prophetic generation as opposed to the regeneration.

 

[chrysostom]

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Was Jesus a false prophet?

no

so all you have to do is figure out
what this generation is
and
what these things are

 

[Caino]

In his book "The Atheist’s Introduction to the New Testament: How the Bible Undermines the Basic Teachings of Christianity", Mike Davis says that, for him, the deciding factor about Christianity came down to Matthew 24:34.

If Jesus was Divine, He would not have made this prediction which obviously did not come true 1900 years ago. Either the Bible is untrustworthy or Jesus was wrong. Because of this the case against Christianity is "closed".

I, of course, like the KJV so here it is:
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Was Jesus a false prophet?

Jesus was misremembered. Matthew dates to about 70 AD, today journalist can't even get facts right from yesterday let alone 40 years latter.

 

[6days]

Jesus was misremembered. Matthew dates to about 70 AD, today journalist can't even get facts right from yesterday let alone 40 years latter.

Caino.... Jesus quoted scripture often as the ultimate source of truth. Some of the scripture He quoted was of events written thousands of years later. The time line of 40 years makes no difference, because all scripture is given by God.

 

[Desert Reign]

That alone is insufficient to discount the interpretation of CSUguy, which I find to be quite plausible. If the English read "that" generation, he would clinch it. The Hebrew language structure also does exactly what CSUguy is suggesting.

Apart from the fact that the New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew. So give me a good reason why I need to treat the rest of your post as if it wasn't methane from the same source. I don't mind if people who know what they are talking about criticise my arguments and CSUGuy happens to be such a person, is respected by me, and I am sure he will respond with a knowledgeable answer. You however apparently don't come into that category.

 

[csuguy]

Unfortunately, this explanation suffers from a similar deficit as that of Michael Cadry above. Clearly Jesus says 'When you see these things'. So I don't see how you can say in the same breath that he is referring to some future generation when the events are going to happen and then overlook that he is speaking to the present generation. The cataclysmic events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad are easily enough to explain the language Jesus uses. And although this would support a preterist viewpoint, it doesn't prove a preterist viewpoint as there are other ways of looking at it. But the idea that Jesus was prophesying the fall of Jerusalem in 70 ad. is natural and well attested.

Jesus said many things which are not recorded in the Gospels and I am not saying that the preterist viewpoint is correct. Perhaps both the long and the short period return of Jesus were taught. And it is an obvious driver in Christian thought and ethics that there will be a final judgement. Jesus' warnings to flee Jerusalem were acted on by the early Christians and it seems obvious to me that Jesus' warnings must have, for that reason, been specific enough to be of value to them. But as the years go on and ten thousand interpretations have been given of how his words would apply to each present generation throughout history, the predictions of Jesus seem less and less meaningful and I think it would be entirely reasonable to conclude that they were not meant for us at all.

"You" is used in both a specific and general sense throughout the scriptures and must be clarified by the context in which it appears. In this case "you" is used generally for anyone who sees the leaves of a fig emerge - that they may then know summer is near. Note he did not say that "you" will see the signs of the end times, but only said "you" in the context of the figs themselves.

While 70 AD is a significant event, I don't think you can map all of the events described in the chapter or in Daniel's 70 weeks to a generation at that time. In particularly - they didn't see this:

Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:30-31​

 

[RevTestament]

Apart from the fact that the New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew. So give me a good reason why I need to treat the rest of your post as if it wasn't methane from the same source. I don't mind if people who know what they are talking about criticise my arguments and CSUGuy happens to be such a person, is respected by me, and I am sure he will respond with a knowledgeable answer. You however apparently don't come into that category.

Ouch...
Just an observation which comes from studying the Hebrew sentence form in the Bible. It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
First, I believe the original Matthew probably was written either in Hebrew or the Aramaic form of Hebrew.
Second, Jesus probably spoke the words in Aramaic Galilean. Sentence structure of this language is believed to have survived translation into Greek. So the way the Hebraic thoughts were related seemed to often survived the translation process, and sometimes the Aramaic words themselves survived as transliterated Greek words.

You don't have to take my word for that. It is easily researched, and I'm sure CSUguy will concur, or any serious student of the Greek and Hebrew scriptures. From reading scripture the interpretation offered by CSUguy follows a common Hebraic pattern - first introducing a general description/idea/symbolism and then describing it in more detail in subsequent passages. Because Christians don't understand the symbolism being used by Jesus, they misinterpret the passage. He is saying as the leaves/fruit of His labor as the fig tree begins to shoot forth, then they know that His return draws near.

 

[Desert Reign]

Ouch...
Just an observation which comes from studying the Hebrew sentence form in the Bible. It doesn't matter to me too much that the "New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.
First, I believe the original Matthew probably was written either in Hebrew or the Aramaic form of Hebrew.
Second, Jesus probably spoke the words in Aramaic Galilean. Sentence structure of this language is believed to have survived translation into Greek. So the way the Hebraic thoughts were related seemed to often survived the translation process, and sometimes the Aramaic words themselves survived as transliterated Greek words.

You don't have to take my word for that.

Too right I don't. It is pure gibberish. And disgraceful.

 

[Desert Reign]

"You" is used in both a specific and general sense throughout the scriptures and must be clarified by the context in which it appears. In this case "you" is used generally for anyone who sees the leaves of a fig emerge - that they may then know summer is near. Note he did not say that "you" will see the signs of the end times, but only said "you" in the context of the figs themselves.

While 70 AD is a significant event, I don't think you can map all of the events described in the chapter or in Daniel's 70 weeks to a generation at that time. In particularly - they didn't see this:

Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:30-31​

Thanks. But I am looking at the whole context, beginning with:

Matthew 24:1-2.

And even just before this where Jesus weeps over Jerusalem and laments its destruction. So everything Jesus says is in answer to this question: when will Jerusalem be destroyed and what signs will accompany it?

As you rightly say, the meaning of 'you' is clarified by the context. This is the context. 'You' is the disciples he is speaking to and the other disciples who would believe in him who were in danger of being caught up in the violence that was to come.