ECT andyc and totton talk freewill

[andyc]

Ok, T, first of all I need to understand how you understand freewill, because apart from the Calvinist view of it, I'm confused.
The way I interpret freewill is simply "freedom to to choose". Whether it be from a few options available or multiple.
The confusion I have with your view is that you believe it is God's will for everyone to be saved, and that he gives everyone an opportunity to be saved, but nobody has freewill? I can't understand how that works.
Could you clear it up for me before we get into scripture?

Cheeeeeeeeeeeers

 

[chrysostom]

good luck with this
may I suggest you use the word
choice

you won't get anywhere with this free will concept

 

[ttruscott]

...


The way I interpret freewill is simply "freedom to to choose". Whether it be from a few options available or multiple.

...

Have you considered that freedom to choose must include the the fact that this freedom is uncoerced by anything in our created nature nor our experience to be free.

This would rule out our free will on earth due to our genetics and to our being enslaved by our addiction to evil.

Peace, Ted

 

[Totton Linnet]

Man HAD choice.....that is what he had, he was ALIVE he was FREE he lived in the garden of great beauty and abundance. All this was God's will for mankind, it still IS God's will for mankind.

Man was free to be everything God had created him to be. Everything was good, God is good, His will is perfect, the best. Man lived by God's will not by his own "freewill"

All man had to do was abide, , to rest, to trust, to Enjoy.

This all was God's will, not man's will...don't you think God's will was best?

But Satan came, his first attack was sow seeds of doubt about God's goodness, "hath God said you may not eat of ANY of the trees?"

This law that God had made was no trifling matter, it was the difference between everything man had and was and death. This law negates freewill, the fact that God said "thou shalt not" means what it says, there would be HORRENDOUS consequences visited upon man's disobedience to this simple law.

That is what totally abolishes the idea of freewill.

Now Satan's job to make the man believe there would be NO consequences, to DECIEVE man into supposing he had freewill to eat of that tree.

This is the same deception he plays on sex perverts, drug addicts, murderers today....providing they do not get caught. He plays the same trick on Christians, although they are saved and can't now be lost...yet they can be robbed of much.

So man had choice and he did choose.

He chose death over life
sin over righteousness
bondage over freedom

THAT my brother is what we see with our own eyes. Having chosen nor there is no more choice We are BOUND to sin we are bound to die. We are in bondage.

Man's only hope is in God's grace and mercy. And God is plenteous in grace and mercy.

 

[andyc]

Man HAD choice.....that is what he had, he was ALIVE he was FREE he lived in the garden of great beauty and abundance. All this was God's will for mankind, it still IS God's will for mankind.

Man was free to be everything God had created him to be. Everything was good, God is good, His will is perfect, the best. Man lived by God's will not by his own "freewill"

All man had to do was abide, , to rest, to trust, to Enjoy.

This all was God's will, not man's will...don't you think God's will was best?

Yes. But God's will is still for us to have God's best. We can have more than Adam had in the garden. Adam had a physical kingdom to look forward to, but now we have heaven to look forward to. This is better.
Abraham got to the place where he saw himself as a stranger in this world.

But Satan came, his first attack was sow seeds of doubt about God's goodness, "hath God said you may not eat of ANY of the trees?"

This law that God had made was no trifling matter, it was the difference between everything man had and was and death. This law negates freewill, the fact that God said "thou shalt not" means what it says, there would be HORRENDOUS consequences visited upon man's disobedience to this simple law.

The consequences were all physical.

That is what totally abolishes the idea of freewill.

Now Satan's job to make the man believe there would be NO consequences, to DECIEVE man into supposing he had freewill to eat of that tree.

He did have freewill. That is why he was able to tempt Eve. The deception was simply that he lied by saying that they would not die if they ate the forbidden fruit.
If you really think hard about this, what you're really saying is that it was God who deceived Adam into thinking he had freewill by telling him not to eat of the forbidden fruit. The capacity to be like God knowing good and evil, was in the fruit. The devil provided this correct information. The problem was that he lied about the consequences of disobedience. None of this really has anything to do with freewill.
Adam was free to choose before, and he was free to choose after.

This is the same deception he plays on sex perverts, drug addicts, murderers today....providing they do not get caught. He plays the same trick on Christians, although they are saved and can't now be lost...yet they can be robbed of much.

So man had choice and he did choose.

He chose death over life
sin over righteousness
bondage over freedom

So he was free to choose these things, and he is still free to choose these things?

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live

Are you saying that man cannot choose life over death now?

THAT my brother is what we see with our own eyes. Having chosen nor there is no more choice We are BOUND to sin we are bound to die. We are in bondage.

Man's only hope is in God's grace and mercy. And God is plenteous in grace and mercy.

Are you saying that it is man's duty to choose God's grace and mercy?

I'm still not following you.

 

[andyc]

Have you considered that freedom to choose must include the the fact that this freedom is uncoerced by anything in our created nature nor our experience to be free.

I've considered the fact that choices are influenced.

This would rule out our free will on earth due to our genetics and to our being enslaved by our addiction to evil.

Peace, Ted

No one is born addicted to evil. Addictions are as a result of choices, not the other way around.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Yes. But God's will is still for us to have God's best. We can have more than Adam had in the garden. Adam had a physical kingdom to look forward to, but now we have heaven to look forward to. This is better.
Abraham got to the place where he saw himself as a stranger in this world.



The consequences were all physical.



He did have freewill. That is why he was able to tempt Eve. The deception was simply that he lied by saying that they would not die if they ate the forbidden fruit.
If you really think hard about this, what you're really saying is that it was God who deceived Adam into thinking he had freewill by telling him not to eat of the forbidden fruit. The capacity to be like God knowing good and evil, was in the fruit. The devil provided this correct information. The problem was that he lied about the consequences of disobedience. None of this really has anything to do with freewill.
Adam was free to choose before, and he was free to choose after.



So he was free to choose these things, and he is still free to choose these things?

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live

Are you saying that man cannot choose life over death now?



Are you saying that it is man's duty to choose God's grace and mercy?

I'm still not following you.

If man had freewill he would say I will sin but I will not die, that is what Satan told him, it is the deception.

You cannot say he had freewill when there was consequences of the severest kind, and dead men do not have freewill.

Having chosen sin and death then those things hold man in bondage. So man's being was changed after the fall, he was no longer free to be all that God had created him for.

YOU say he can now choose again to be righteous the bible says no such thing. First he can only chooses if he is presented with a choice.

For centuries the Red Indian did not have a choice, there were no Christians among them...yet you say they had a choice.

And then he can only choose if he is set free to choose. You are in complete denial of what the bible says about the Pharisees being the children of the devil and so not able to understand Jesu's word.

You are denying that God closes peoples eyes that they see not and stops their ears that they hear not lest they should perceive with their hearts and turn to Him that He might heal them.

Jesus showed it clearly in the parables.

The field is the world, the wheat seeds are the sons of the kingdom and the tares were sown by the enemy [Calvin supposes that they are sown by God] but tares are not wheat, vipers are not doves, goats are not sheep.

You want God to save the devil's children but He never will. And God does not force His salvation on anybody but we are His children, when He speaks to us in the gospel we do hear His voice.

Others are the devil's children...the church through freewill theology has them all mixed in together in the church....that is why the church is such a mess.

 

[andyc]

Ok what you're describing is more or less man becoming depraved with no ability to choose to do right according to conscience. So, what I'm scratching my head trying to figure out is how you believe that God wants everyone to be saved, and how some are saved but most are not?
How do people believe and not believe?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Ok what you're describing is more or less man becoming depraved with no ability to choose to do right according to conscience. So, what I'm scratching my head trying to figure out is how you believe that God wants everyone to be saved, and how some are saved but most are not?
How do people believe and not believe?

Well I say over and over that the devil's children will not be saved, I do not believe that the most will perish, I believe in a BILLIONfold wider mercy than is accepted by Free Grace or Free will believers.

The wider mercy sits better with Free grace doctrines than with the Free will doctrines.

Why would God want to save the wicked? heaven will be earth or hell.

YOU and I do not know who are the children of God and who the children of the evil one...but God knows, they each are discovered by the preaching of the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit...that is what sorts them out.

 

[john w]

Can we join in your coffee talk?:

 

[Totton Linnet]

Can we join in your coffee talk?:

Sure, I would LOVE your imput but could you cover those knees a little....please

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Well I say over and over that the devil's children will not be saved, I do not believe that the most will perish, I believe in a BILLIONfold wider mercy than is accepted by Free Grace or Free will believers.

The wider mercy sits better with Free grace doctrines than with the Free will doctrines.

Why would God want to save the wicked? heaven will be earth or hell.

YOU and I do not know who are the children of God and who the children of the evil one...but God knows, they each are discovered by the preaching of the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit...that is what sorts them out.

What makes the ground good that they receive the seed and it grows?

LA

 

[andyc]

Well I say over and over that the devil's children will not be saved, I do not believe that the most will perish, I believe in a BILLIONfold wider mercy than is accepted by Free Grace or Free will believers.

The wider mercy sits better with Free grace doctrines than with the Free will doctrines.

Why would God want to save the wicked? heaven will be earth or hell.

YOU and I do not know who are the children of God and who the children of the evil one...but God knows, they each are discovered by the preaching of the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit...that is what sorts them out.

How do you determine who is and isn't wicked from God's perspective?
Paul was wicked because of his ignorance, and God saved him.

 

[Totton Linnet]

How do you determine who is and isn't wicked from God's perspective?
Paul was wicked because of his ignorance, and God saved him.

Paul was separated from his mother's womb to preach the gospel, I was determined by God before He placed me in my mother's womb...why is that difficult to understand? God is hands on in creation, everything is settled from eternity.

This is the GLORIOUS truth...this is how we know we can never be lost. We know who we are, we know what we are to be, we know what we are to be doing. There is no fuzziness, no uncertainty, no wobbling.

 

[Totton Linnet]

What makes the ground good that they receive the seed and it grows?

LA

It is prepared, predetermined, cultivated...the other grounds were not.

 

[andyc]

Paul was separated from his mother's womb to preach the gospel, I was determined by God before He placed me in my mother's womb...why is that difficult to understand? God is hands on in creation, everything is settled from eternity.

This is the GLORIOUS truth...this is how we know we can never be lost. We know who we are, we know what we are to be, we know what we are to be doing. There is no fuzziness, no uncertainty, no wobbling.

Ah, so God doesn't want everyone to be saved?
God hates every child born who wasnt separated from their mothers womb?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Ah, so God doesn't want everyone to be saved?
God hates every child born who wasnt separated from their mothers womb?

This the cockeyed way of putting it, the famous caricature.

When did God want anybody to sin? when did He desire the death of anybody?

That was man's choice...man may not have wanted to die, he may not want to be damned...but he wants to sin.

When Paul speaks of one lump of clay from which the Potter fashions vessels for honourable or dishonourable use Paul is speaking about the lump of clay AFTER the fall. After man had rebelled. That was all man's own doing. Men must get it into their heads that they have rebelled against God and have made God their enemy, man is not God's enemy, God is man's enemy.

But man has sinned, he must die. Now the BILLIONfold wider mercy is a different topic altogether. I don't BELIEVE it is only the sheep and the goats...there is "these My brethren" on whose behalf the sheep and the goats are judged by how they did or did not minister to them.

God is DETERMINED to save mankind.....but the wicked will not be saved, the goats it will be found will be in the minority.

HOW?

Because God is not only going to create a new heaven but a new earth also. The pure in heart will inherit heaven but the meek will inherit the earth.

 

[andyc]

This the cockeyed way of putting it, the famous caricature.

When did God want anybody to sin? when did He desire the death of anybody?

That was man's choice...man may not have wanted to die, he may not want to be damned...but he wants to sin.

When Paul speaks of one lump of clay from which the Potter fashions vessels for honourable or dishonourable use Paul is speaking about the lump of clay AFTER the fall. After man had rebelled. That was all man's own doing. Men must get it into their heads that they have rebelled against God and have made God their enemy, man is not God's enemy, God is man's enemy.

But man has sinned, he must die. Now the BILLIONfold wider mercy is a different topic altogether. I don't BELIEVE it is only the sheep and the goats...there is "these My brethren" on whose behalf the sheep and the goats are judged by how they did or did not minister to them.

Ok it is down to man to get it into his head?
Man is responcible for recognizing his need of forgiveness?

If the conviction of the Spirit causes some to choose Christ, but some to reject, human will must still be active in the process?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Ok it is down to man to get it into his head?
Man is responcible for recognizing his need of forgiveness?

If the conviction of the Spirit causing some to choose Christ, but some to reject, human will must still active in the process?

I say human will must be vanquished, the human will is to sin, is at enmity with God always.

People say "we love God" but they do not mean the God of the bible, they mean they love their idea of God, and with our Lord as well.

But the human will is in bondage...Paul everywhere teaches.

I know people [many] believe Romans 7 is talking about Paul as a Christian, yet another big topic, but he is speaking to "those who know the law" how it operates. We may will to do good but we end up doing evil. It is this bondage that Christ sets us free from.

Why would we need to be set free if we are already free?

Why ever would Christ need to die if we had freewill to turn to God? it is His death [and ours with Him] that sets us free.

We don't like for our wills to be vanquished, even though we are vanquished by love...it is so much more honourable for us to say WE DECIDED FOR CHRIST. It is pride plain old.

Yet we are born again "not by the will of man nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God" Everywhere it is "God hath chosen us" not once will you find "we have chosen God"

"God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure" now watch this closely....

God is gentle, glory, He is so gentle that we THINK it is us, our will...but it is God IN US doing it.

Of a truth the new birth comes first...then faith then we are saved. not in stages as squeaks would have it but all in a go. in the twink of an eye.

 

[andyc]

T... I gotta run, but I still don't understand, from your perspective, how God can desire everyone to be saved, but only those who are regenerated can believe, yet he only regenerates those who are not wicked, and some who are wicked but separated from their mothers womb. I don't think I'm the only one confused here