ARCHIVE - geoff's colossal contradiction (subtitled) HIS CONVERSION TO OPEN THEISM!

geoff

New member
That is a great verse, proving that God can do the possible, even if man thinks it is impossible.

By definition, and logical necessity, God can not do the impossible. Man and his estimations is not the crux by which God must leap. The truth in realty dictates (God's word teaches) that God exists according to His own eternal nature and being, it can be no other way.

The verse says clearly, that God can do what is impossible for human beings. It is not limited by 'man thinks it is impossible' - that limitation is introduced by you.

By definition, and logical necessity? No, rather, 'in order for Dwayne to be right'.... God can not do the impossible.

Lets review:

Dwayne:
God can not do the impossible
God can not know that which does not exist

Scripture:
God can do the impossible
God does know that which does not exist.

Dwayne has to reword, and read meaning INTO Scripture in order for Dwayne to be right.

Scripture is right, all by its lonesome. It doesnt need Dwayne's logic or Dwaynes definitions to be right...
 

1Way

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Geoff - As to
The verse says clearly, that God can do what is impossible for human beings.
I agree that God can do what is impossible for human beings, that establishes that it is not an impossibility for God, it's just an impossibility for man.

2 points

1 - Hebrews 6:18 that by two immutable things, in which it [is] impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before [us].

2 - (From geoff's Post dated 09-21-2001 09:05 PM)
The Scripture says what Dwayne?

Lets see:
With man, it is impossible, with God, nothing is impossible.

However, it is true, God can not do the illogical. Exhaustive foreknowledge is not illiogical, EVEN humans have partial foreknowledge.

1 - God's word attributes lying as an impossibility for God.

2 - geoff's word says that God "can not do" the illogical.

And everyone knows what "can not do" means.

can not do = it is not possible to do = impossible to do

Next!
 

geoff

New member
Dwayne this post is senseless.

I have never said God can lie. I have never said He can do the illogical...

What on earth are you raving about?
 

1Way

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geoff doesn't just try to correct God's word, he corrects reality (truth) itself!

geoff doesn't just try to correct God's word, he corrects reality (truth) itself!

Geoff - As to you mind numbing response, you said
I have never said God can lie. I have never said He can do the illogical.
I suggested no such thing! I said God said

1 - it's impossible for God to lie, (Do you sometimes forget that you are not God?)

2 - and that you said that "God can not do the illogical.". (Do you always illogically flip the truth against it's self in reality?)

I never said nor implied what your defense implies of me.
(1)I have never said God can lie. (2)I have never said He can do the illogical.
1 - Neither did I say that God can lie, nor did I suggest or imply that you said that He can lie.

2 - Neither did I say that God can do the illogical, nor did I suggest or imply that you said that God can do the illogical.

I said what I said, and I meant what I meant, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS, which was the following.
2 points

1 - Hebrews 6:18 that by two immutable things, in which it [is] impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before [us].

2 - (From geoff's Post dated 09-21-2001 09:05 PM) Quote:

The Scripture says what Dwayne?

Lets see:
With man, it is impossible, with God, nothing is impossible.

However, it is true, God can not do the illogical. Exhaustive foreknowledge is not illiogical, EVEN humans have partial foreknowledge.

End quote.

1 - God's word attributes lying as an impossibility for God.

2 - geoff's word says that God "can not do" the illogical.

And everyone knows what "can not do" basically means.

can not do = it is not possible to do = impossible to do

Next!
It was no mixed up event like you are trying to make it into. You are so full of yourself. Inspite of, and regardless of, your nonsence response to my 2 points, they still stand against you, supporting the fact that God can not do what is impossible for him to do.

My points were offered, supported, and no credible deffense offered by geoff, case stands in my favor. Case is as closed as geoff is to the truth in reality.

1Way
 
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geoff

New member
I still dont know what you are on about dwayne...

You seem to be trying to say that these 'points' are in opposition to my understanding... which is baffling... because they are points I already made..

your mind is a mystery dwayne...
 

Carl Smuda

New member
surpassing wonder

surpassing wonder

Geoff,
How you doing? It is nice to see you in print. God Bless you in the name of Jesus Christ! I trust all is well down there?

1Way,
God bless you in the name of Jesus Christ! YOU are the only YOU God has.

sincerely,
Carl
 

geoff

New member
Hi Carl,

I am well.. things are good down here.... Hope you are well also...

Dwayne is certainly the only dwayne around... *phew*

:D

God bless
 

1Way

+OL remote satellite affiliate
... in defense of God's supposed capacity to know things that do not exist (which is geoff's position and he is about to defend!), he shockingly said
I think I will write a sentence in 30 secs that says; 'see even I can know something that doesnt exist'





'see even I can know something that doesnt exist'

Funny, I just knew something that didnt exist, and then it did exist. If I can do it, surely God can do it immeasurably.
That is the exact demonstration of the open view's version of God's foreknowledge of the future! God knows His future plans before they happen. It demonstrates present accumulated knowledge, which includes plans for the future.

geoff is either opposed and inconsistent to his own theology, or perhaps finally the truth has begun to sink in. In any case, his presented a fine demonstration for the open view.

Amazing!

1Way
 

geoff

New member
That is the exact demonstration of the open view's version of God's foreknowledge of the future!

It is not.

Because immeasurably also indicates exhaustively, and you, my son, hate that with a vengenance.
 

jobeth

Member
Dwayne:
So, are you consistent with this and say that there is only seeming changes, only seeming free will, only seeming contingencies? Please explain.
Yes.

You've explained my position very well. Good job.

I will make one minor clarification, more for Geoff's benefit than for yours. I agree with Geoff that God's foreknowledge is not the CAUSE of what happens. Rather, because God is All-powerful and knows that nothing can thwart His will, or ruin His plans, or stop Him from accomplishing His purpose, EDF is simply the RESULT. God knows what will happen, because He's going to make it happen.
 

geoff

New member
God knows what will happen, because He's going to make it happen.

So, you contradict yourself so nicely. It he knows it because he is going to make it happen, then His knowing it, is first cause, ie knowing cases.

Sorry, wrong.
 

1Way

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Geoff - You twit. As to
Because immeasurably also indicates exhaustively, and you, my son, hate that with a vengenance.
I agree with immeasurably, God knows His future plans (that exist) exhaustively. If ignorance is bliss, you must be ecstatic.

1Way
 

1Way

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Jobeth - As to
I will make one minor clarification, more for Geoff's benefit than for yours. I agree with Geoff that God's foreknowledge is not the CAUSE of what happens. Rather, because God is All-powerful and knows that nothing can thwart His will, or ruin His plans, or stop Him from accomplishing His purpose, EDF is simply the RESULT. God knows what will happen, because He's going to make it happen.
geoff does make a good point, as long as we grant that thought proceeds action, then God's forethought proceeds Him doing it.

Secondly, if God's thoughts are exhaustive and complete, then He views the future with exhaustive foreknowledge in the same manor as the other who believes that the future already exists to be known. The only difference is the way that the future is created or exists. Either way, in such a world, contingencies and uncertainties are not allowed.

So please remain consistent and do not represent

If then

contingencies

Since you keep affirming that they did not exist. Fair enough?

1Way
 

geoff

New member
I agree with immeasurably, God knows His future plans (that exist) exhaustively.

I have already demonstrated FROM scripture that God knows MORE than just what he has planned...

Your wilful ignorance condemns you (at least, thats what you tell everyone else...)
 

jobeth

Member
Geoff:
So, you contradict yourself so nicely. It he knows it because he is going to make it happen, then His knowing it, is first cause, ie knowing cases.

Sorry, wrong.
Perhaps I'm confused. Would you explain for me why you think that is so?
 

1Way

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Jobeth -
geoff does make a good point, as long as we grant that thought proceeds action, then God's forethought proceeds Him doing it.
His foreknowledge effectively causes the future via His actions. Or do you say that God acts without forethought and reason?

1Way
 

1Way

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geoff

I said
"That is the exact demonstration of the open view's version of God's foreknowledge of the future!"


You said
"It is not.

Because immeasurably also indicates exhaustively, and you, my son, hate that with a vengeance."


Then I said,
"I agree with immeasurably, God knows His future plans (that exist) exhaustively."


To which you said
"I have already demonstrated FROM scripture that God knows MORE than just what he has planned..."


You slide away from the reality that exhaustive knowledge is not incompatible with my view. It's my view you were commenting on, not yours, you dunce.

1Way
 
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jobeth

Member
1way:
I am happy to remain consistent and to deny that anything is contingent upon anything except upon God's sovereign will and authority. And I do admit that it is difficult to avoid being misunderstood because our language makes it nearly impossible.

James explains the difficulty.
James 4: 3 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

So, yes, our speech might be altered to reflect the Truth about God's rule and authority over us. But would it really help? Wouldn't some just say that an "if, then" when talking about God means that God is waiting on us to do one thing or another before He can act? You know they would. They do this even though they know it's nonsense. When you consider that God created the universe before any of us existed, then it is obvious that God doesn't need our help or consent before He can act.

Rather, the simple explanation why we might preface our intentions with "Lord willing" is that we are merely acknowledging the fact that we are obliged to wait upon God before we can do anything.

Christ told us: "Without me, you can do nothing."
He didn't say "You can do nothing good" Or "You can do only little". I believe that He meant we can do exactly nothing on our own, without God's agency.
 

geoff

New member
Jobeth,

You said:

God knows what will happen, because He's going to make it happen.

prior to this you said:

I agree with Geoff that God's foreknowledge is not the CAUSE of what happens.

The first line is a direct contradiction of the second.

'going to make it happen' is identical to 'causing it to happen'.
 

geoff

New member
Dwayne:

just continuing to state the same old baloney isnt going to help your cause. You have already been shown that you are wrong, from clear and legitimate Scripture, and yet you reject it, and lean on the understanding of yourself, or whoever taught you.

Its very sad really.

Calling me names also will not help your cause.

Some evidence, and refutation of scripture might, but nothing worth considering has vomited forth from your fingers as yet
 
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