ARCHIVE:God is NOT an OV'er (He said so)
- Thread starter geoff
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1013
Post Modern Fundamentalist
Whether he was preparing it or he had prepared prior, the open view finds support because God could change his plan as verse 8 says. That is the typical observation of the open view.
but Music man's observation that it is present tense would be a powerful peice of evidence, to add to the contigency already recognized.
So is the participle past tense? that would be unusual and granted you say there are instances, my hebrew syntax book does not give any explicit indication that it is past and usually places it as present by way of ongoing action, immanent action, or simultaneous action, among other uses which do not clearly seem conducive to a past tense. When I'm not feeling lazy, perhaps I'll look at your counterexamples.
perhaps, your examples involve simultinaity with something in the past. that is not the case here.
but Music man's observation that it is present tense would be a powerful peice of evidence, to add to the contigency already recognized.
So is the participle past tense? that would be unusual and granted you say there are instances, my hebrew syntax book does not give any explicit indication that it is past and usually places it as present by way of ongoing action, immanent action, or simultaneous action, among other uses which do not clearly seem conducive to a past tense. When I'm not feeling lazy, perhaps I'll look at your counterexamples.
perhaps, your examples involve simultinaity with something in the past. that is not the case here.
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themuzicman
Well-known member
Are you claiming to be psychic? Because that's the only way you can have true foreknowledge.
I think you've confused foreknowledge with an educated guess. The weatherman claims to predict the future, but it's only an educated guess.
Even within ourselves, we can make a decision to do something at a certain time ,but we cannot be certain that we will do it. Frequently, I haven't a clue as to what's going to happen to me 5 minutes from now. Some foreknowledge.
I realize that without foreknowledge, you lose your security blanket regarding God, and the possibility that not everything that happens is God's will is scarey for you. What you need to do is place your faith in God, rather than in foreknowledge, and allow God to be God in bringing about His will without it.
God doesn't need foreknowledge as a security blanket. Why do you?
Michael
themuzicman
Well-known member
Welcome to the Open View.
Michael
themuzicman
Well-known member
Yeah, I remember. I still haven't had anyone explain how God could have created and set this universe in motion, and in the same moment existentially known exactly what was going to happen in every moment throughout history, and still claim not to be the one who determined what happened.
If the future is certain, then it was pre-determined. I don't see how you can separate the two.
Michael
foreknown does not mean determined. Knowledge is not causal. Isn't that pretty obvious?
If I am teaching someone to add, and I see two cars in one pile, then see three in another pile, and ask the person how many they have, I did not cause the answer to be 5, but I knew it ahead of time.
As for knowing how God could know, do you really think an finite mind or explanation will come close to the reality that is God? I think that may be my biggest problem with OV, that it is trying so hard to force God into our limitations.
If I am teaching someone to add, and I see two cars in one pile, then see three in another pile, and ask the person how many they have, I did not cause the answer to be 5, but I knew it ahead of time.
As for knowing how God could know, do you really think an finite mind or explanation will come close to the reality that is God? I think that may be my biggest problem with OV, that it is trying so hard to force God into our limitations.
geoff
New member
Music:
I am not psychic, but there are some things that I have certain knowledge of. You keep denying its possible, but you never prove it.
Simple, and fairly widely accepted these days (except by a few extremists)
I am not psychic, but there are some things that I have certain knowledge of. You keep denying its possible, but you never prove it.
Easy. Foreknowledge is not causative. It is NOT a property that foreknowledge has. It is not determinative, because foreknowledge does NOT have the power to cause anything.
Simple, and fairly widely accepted these days (except by a few extremists)
themuzicman
Well-known member
Because you didn't create the system by which the answer is five. The difference between you and God is that you're an observer, whereas He is the cause.
You are certain because you were taught. God would be certain because He made it that way.
Actually, the OVer marvels in God's omnipotence and omnicience (and omni presence) in being able to bring about His will without fixing the end before hand. Apparantly, determinists want to limit God's power by having to fix the end before things started.
Michael
themuzicman
Well-known member
No, God is the cause of everything. Without free will, God has to be the cause of everything.
Thus, when you combine God who is the cause, and foreknowledge which mandates certainty in everything, you have determinism.
Michael
geoff
New member
assertion, not proven. In fact, not provable.
Ahh, no you dont.
You still have not proven, nor shown, nor can to you to any degree, that foreknowledge has the inherent property of causation.
Foreknowledge HAS NO POWER to cause. God can cause. God who has foreknowledge can cause, I can cause, I, who has forenkowledge can cause. But foreknowledge CAN NOT CAUSE. Therefore foreknowledge is NOT determinative.
Its inanimate, powerless. It cant do anything. It is knowledge, it just 'is'. One can USE foreknowledge to determine, but merely 'possessing' it does not determine.
God CAN use foreknowledge to determine (that is, cause) certain events to happen. That is not, and never will be the same as saying 'because God knows, He has determined (caused)', because 'cause' is not a property of knowing.
I have said it before, and many many scholars/philosophers have also, that you have to either prove there is are different types of foreknowledge (causal and non causal) or the idea that foreknowing is causal is wrong.
Dont just tell me that because God foreknows, and is first cause, foreknowing is causal, because that is not acceptable. We know God causes, and we know God has foreknowledge. We also know that because God foreknows some things, He causes other things. That is NOT the same as 'His foreknowing is causing'.
Right?
Clear yet?
1013
Post Modern Fundamentalist
are we still on this? maybe that could be drawn from what muzicman said (sorry muz if that's not what you intend) but no professional openness theologian does this. Not even Boyd says this. At most, foreknowledge indicates, read not the power behind, but just indicates determinism and at the least negates freedom. It is not the power behind the future.
Surly-DwarF
New member
Ok, ok, I won't pick on you for that
But I will for this:
What? Forekowledge indicates determinism? I thought you believed it necessarily means it. Even I agree that if something is foreknown, it is absolutely certain to happen. Maybe I missed the gist of what you were getting at, but...as to foreknowledge negating freedom...nope, it doesn't.
Mike
themuzicman
Well-known member
Both of you guys (Jaltus and Geoff) are missing key components, here.
You are correct, foreknowledge in and of itself is not causation.
However, foreknowledge requires certainty. If the future is not certain, then it cannot be known.
Furthermore, certainty can only be occur previous to the beginning of that which is certain. If there is an alterng cause that enters after something has begun, it cannot be certain.
I think we all agree that God caused the creation of the universe, and set time in motion. I believe you also assert that God has foreknown everything since creation. Thus certainty dictates that the only cause of everything that has happened is God.
So, just to recap: Foreknowledge requires certainty. Certainty eliminates subsequent altering causes. God is the initial cause. And, since everythnig is certain since the initial cause, because all is foreknown, God would have to be the cause of all things.
Which is why foreknowledge, as you present it, is unbiblical.
Michael
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