If you mean we can't always shift the blame to Satan, I agree.
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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lee_merrill
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Hi everyone,
Luke 23:28 But turning to them Jesus said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me…"
Philippians 1:20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed…
Hebrews 13:6 So we can confidently say, "The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?"
Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Amen! Wherever possible, is always…
2 Corinthians 2:14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him.
Blessings,
Lee
That's a good point! But I think "In Adam's fall, we sinned all," and that was the devil's work (though that doesn't remove responsibility from Adam and Eve), and that kind of includes all human evil.
And some on a cross … like Jesus.
Luke 23:28 But turning to them Jesus said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me…"
We do, though, for those losses for which there is no recovery, for that we have no hope. Unless Paul was correct! In all these things, super-conquering, continuous present tense.
Philippians 1:20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed…
Hebrews 13:6 So we can confidently say, "The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?"
Yes, I agree…
Paul would perhaps state this differently?
Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Amen! Wherever possible, is always…
2 Corinthians 2:14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him.
Blessings,
Lee
Agape4Robin
Member
Sounds to me like ya'll agree!
lee_merrill said:
Jesus said we would have trials. They can kill our bodies (as the early apostles experienced and many do today in the persecuted church), but they cannot kill our spirits. In this world, we may have troubles. Hebrews 11 lists things suffered by saints in this life. Some did not see the promise fulfilled until the next life. We are more than conquerors in life or death. This does not mean we might not experience evil or suffering in this life. In the light of eternity, our troubles now are a wisp. If I get shot in the head by a robber, this is irreversible evil in this life. I still win, because I go to be with Jesus. Am I misunderstanding you? If not, your proof texting is out of balance with other verses and real life experience.
lee_merrill
New member
Hi everyone,
2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.
Psalm 90:15 Make us glad for as many days as you have afflicted us, for as many years as we have seen trouble.
That's good...
1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
That's better...
Job 23:10 But he knows the way that I take; when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold.
That's best!
Blessings,
Lee
As Robin said, I agree!godrulz said:
Yes...
2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.
Yes, I would say that all that happens is not just compensated for, by some other good, but it turns out, in itself, for good.
Psalm 90:15 Make us glad for as many days as you have afflicted us, for as many years as we have seen trouble.
That's good...
1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
That's better...
Job 23:10 But he knows the way that I take; when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold.
That's best!
Blessings,
Lee
Congratulations ChristisKing and BereanTodd!
Congratulations ChristisKing and BereanTodd!
Although I am an open theist, I wish to commend ChristisKing and BereanTodd for their participation from posts 51 to 110.
In my opinion, some of the open view answers in this section reflect a version of the OV which needs some modification, as these men have demonstrated.
My open view agrees with ChristisKing in this: before the foundation of the world it was predestined that Jesus Christ would come in the flesh to offer his body as a sacrifice for the redemption of men and women condemned to eternal destruction because of their sin.
How does the OV line up with predestination here?
As in general election, many of the specific details are still not known until they occur. There is no need to know which man or woman will be the first to sin. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, the population of the world would increase with more men and women who could choose to walk with God or , conversely, rebel against his commands.
For me, predestination implies God's intention to keep offering free will to men until there is a fall. Even if millions of men lived for millions of years before sin entered the world, God did not intend to close down the "experiment" before he would have the opportunity to be Savior as well as Creator.
He estimated the benefits of redeeming a lost world as a worthy project. He founded the world with this plan in His mind.
By creating men with free will and maintaining that freedom for as long as it would take, it became inevitable there would be a fall.
(My guess is both the OVers and the non OVers will be opposed to this post).
Congratulations ChristisKing and BereanTodd!
Although I am an open theist, I wish to commend ChristisKing and BereanTodd for their participation from posts 51 to 110.
In my opinion, some of the open view answers in this section reflect a version of the OV which needs some modification, as these men have demonstrated.
My open view agrees with ChristisKing in this: before the foundation of the world it was predestined that Jesus Christ would come in the flesh to offer his body as a sacrifice for the redemption of men and women condemned to eternal destruction because of their sin.
How does the OV line up with predestination here?
As in general election, many of the specific details are still not known until they occur. There is no need to know which man or woman will be the first to sin. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, the population of the world would increase with more men and women who could choose to walk with God or , conversely, rebel against his commands.
For me, predestination implies God's intention to keep offering free will to men until there is a fall. Even if millions of men lived for millions of years before sin entered the world, God did not intend to close down the "experiment" before he would have the opportunity to be Savior as well as Creator.
He estimated the benefits of redeeming a lost world as a worthy project. He founded the world with this plan in His mind.
By creating men with free will and maintaining that freedom for as long as it would take, it became inevitable there would be a fall.
(My guess is both the OVers and the non OVers will be opposed to this post).
ChristisKing
New member
Battuta said:
If Adam and Eve had not sinned then there would be people in heaven who would have not needed Christ and would have earned their own glory. We know this is unscriptural because the Scriptures teach that God created all for the glory of Christ and that He was to receive all the glory:
1CO 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
COL 1:16 For by him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him (Christ):
Battuta said:
This is not unreasonable. I prefer to distinguish possibilities from actualities. God's reaction of grief implies He did not anticipate the Fall as a certainty, but as a possibilitity He was prepared to deal with (even from eternity past).
Your view still does not answer their objections why God would create such a world knowing that sooner or later there would be misery with people suffering torment for eternity.
ChristisKing said:
I Cor. and Col. must be interpreted in light of the fact they are AFTER the Fall. If Adam would have walked with God in fellowship, this does not mean that he was earning his own glory. It means that he was living as God intended for His perfect creation. Free moral agency made selfish rebellion possible, but not necessary. I thought the original intention was for Adam and Eve to live forever on paradise earth (not just JW concept). The expulsion from the garden and physical death were consequences after the Fall, not part of God's perfect plan. Redemption and heaven were implemented after the Fall. There will still be a plan for earth during the millennium when saints coming out of the Tribulation repopulate paradise earth. Then, some will be in glorified bodies, while others will live on a new earth in a new heaven for eternity.
It is theoretically possible that it was so probable that someone would rebel someday, that God pretty much knew that Christ would inevitably come to redeem mankind.
What is certain and not speculative is that Christ DID come and die, just as was promised after the Fall in Genesis 3.
Re: 1CO 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Re: 1CO 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Adam walked with God when he was innocent. It was not a problem for him to be in God's presence, even though he was not redeemed. He didn't boast.
People boast in God's presence today, in the sense that He is everywhere and he observes them boast. So the verse needs to be understood in context. Human wisdom, the wisdom of those who do not know God (v. 21), may puff itself up in this life, but it will be defeated.
If anyone boasted in heaven, he would have to be expelled. Then he would be in need of a Savior.
Personally, I don't know if we will have free choice in heaven. I tend to think we will be "locked in to innocent mode." Some OVers would object. The innocent men and women of our hypothetical "If Adam and Eve didn't sin scenario" might not have gone to heaven until they were "locked in to innocent mode," too. I realize this last paragraph is highly speculative.
How would you describe glory, ChristisKIng?
Re: 1CO 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
There will be angels in heaven who never sinned. There will be fallen angels who are cast into hell instead. I tentatively hold to the view they all had an opportunity to choose at a specific time; some chose to obey while others rebelled. An angel who did not fall would not be in heaven because of redemption. Neither would he boast about it.
Adam walked with God when he was innocent. It was not a problem for him to be in God's presence, even though he was not redeemed. He didn't boast.
People boast in God's presence today, in the sense that He is everywhere and he observes them boast. So the verse needs to be understood in context. Human wisdom, the wisdom of those who do not know God (v. 21), may puff itself up in this life, but it will be defeated.
If anyone boasted in heaven, he would have to be expelled. Then he would be in need of a Savior.
Personally, I don't know if we will have free choice in heaven. I tend to think we will be "locked in to innocent mode." Some OVers would object. The innocent men and women of our hypothetical "If Adam and Eve didn't sin scenario" might not have gone to heaven until they were "locked in to innocent mode," too. I realize this last paragraph is highly speculative.
How would you describe glory, ChristisKIng?
ChristisKing
New member
The Scriptures teach that God predestined Christ to come in the flesh to be the only Savior for all flesh who would be saved. In this way Christ would receive all the glory for redeeming all men and women who receive eternal life.Battuta said:
No flesh would be able to earn it and receive the glory of their good works. The glory was predestined to Christ's alone!
I see redemption as both predestined and certain.
I see redemption as both predestined and certain.
Please identify the reaction of grief to which you refer. I just scanned Genesis 3 and didn't find it.
I see redemption as both predestined and certain.
I don't find a possibility here. I see either a certainty or the time leading up to that certainty. God is saying he won't settle for any other possible closure outside of the plan of redemption. That much was predestined.
Please identify the reaction of grief to which you refer. I just scanned Genesis 3 and didn't find it.
Battuta said:
God predestined that IF man fell, Christ would die. He predestined the nature and need for redemption as a contingency, not foregone conclusion before it happened.
The grief after the Fall was Genesis 6:9 (proximal to the Fall=Noah, not centuries later): "The Lord was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain."
Creation was originally 'very good'. After man became wicked, God's disposition changed. This did not happen trillions of years before the Fall when He delighted at the possibility of a free creation that would love Him in relationship without coercion.
ChristisKing
New member
Battuta said:
Sure, pls just let me know the day and I'll be glad to continue this...I want to tell you how refreshing this is for me to see such a godly attitude and tone from you Battuta. You must be born from above.
ChristisKing
New member
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell
As you requested, other Scripture to consider that reveals how God had predestined Christ to receive all the glory for saving all men and women who would have eternal life:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ( EPH 1:4-5)
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (EPH 1:10)
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, (EPH 1:22)
And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; (COL 1:18-19)
You begin to see the beauty of the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God and predestination; it reveals how God had always planned that Christ should receive all the glory and honor before God created one thing. Christ is exalted and honored above any and all men in this doctrine. In open theism, as you rightly point out, Adam and Eve and numerous others could have rec'd all the glory and honor in earning their own salvation. But according to Scripture God would have none of this, He would not give any of the credit for earning eternal life to anyone except His Son. His Son was predestined to receive it all, "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell."
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell
Battuta said:
As you requested, other Scripture to consider that reveals how God had predestined Christ to receive all the glory for saving all men and women who would have eternal life:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ( EPH 1:4-5)
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (EPH 1:10)
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, (EPH 1:22)
And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; (COL 1:18-19)
You begin to see the beauty of the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God and predestination; it reveals how God had always planned that Christ should receive all the glory and honor before God created one thing. Christ is exalted and honored above any and all men in this doctrine. In open theism, as you rightly point out, Adam and Eve and numerous others could have rec'd all the glory and honor in earning their own salvation. But according to Scripture God would have none of this, He would not give any of the credit for earning eternal life to anyone except His Son. His Son was predestined to receive it all, "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell."
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Very confusing question to me.Knight said:
If God did not want to know something, He would have to know what He didn't want to know before choosing not to know it. I don't think it is a master-slave relationship either.
Proverbs 8:22-36 says God is, His Wisdom is. Best I can do. (No, I don't want to get into what the definition of "is" is.
)
Berean Todd
New member
ChristisKing said:
Just to add a couple of more before I head off to church:
2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
Gee, here we are told that these people specifically were chosen from the begining for salvation. I know these OVers like to say that "election is corporate, not individual", but here in this passage Paul is thanking God that these SPECIFIC people were chosen from the begining.
Gal 1:15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
Wow, here is Paul being set apart from the womb. Doesn't sound like he had much choice in the matter.
Ok, I would give more but I have to go now ... have a great Sunday morning everyone!
Frank Ernest said:Very confusing question to me.
If God did not want to know something, He would have to know what He didn't want to know before choosing not to know it. I don't think it is a master-slave relationship either.
Proverbs 8:22-36 says God is, His Wisdom is. Best I can do. (No, I don't want to get into what the definition of "is" is.
Proverbs 8 is about wisdom. It is personified as a figure of speech. The context is not saying God is Wisdom (though it is true that God is wise and Christ is the wisdom of God...different contexts).
The idea that God could chose to not know something He is able to know does not compute. It is not the classical view nor normative Open Theism.
The only way I can see that God does not know something knowable is to create beings with free moral agency (libertarian free will). This type of creation (vs determinism) means that the future cannot be exhaustively foreknown by the omniscient God. It is an issue with the nature of freedom and an open future, not God willing directly to not know something other beings in the universe could know.
e.g. Some think that God forgiving our sins means that He forgets them. Forgiveness does not mean literal forgetfulness, even for humans. It is chosing to not bring them up again, though God and sinner or offended person could recall them to mind if they wanted to.
If something is a possible object of knowledge, God could not chose to not know it. He is omnipresent and omniscient, knowing all that is knowable. In relation to the future, He correctly knows things as possibilities until they become certainties/actualities with the choice.
Omnipotence does not mean that God does everything He could possibly do. He also cannot do logically contradictory or absurd things. Omnipotence is not identical to omniscience in its ability or limitations.
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