ARCHIVE: Will You Be Celebrating Christmas?

[Hilston]

Originally posted by Knight
Jim.... maybe you could comment on the following.... What do you think of the distinction I am making in that choosing not to celebrate holidays is one thing but being told they are forbidden is legalistic.

It is only legalistic if it goes beyond what Scripture prescribes (or proscribes, in this case).

Originally posted by Knight
Legalism, Not legalism

Holidays good...

Legalism...
"I celebrate holidays because it is a good work."

NOT legalism...
"I celebrate holidays because they are fun and a good opportunity to fellowship and preach the gospel. Yet I certainly wouldn't have to celebrate holidays if I didn't want to."

If you start on the assumption that holidays are good, you've violated Paul's gospel from the onset. Scriptures do not give us the option of celebrating holidays because they are fun and a good opportunity to fellowship and preach the gospel. One could argue that participating in prostitution is fun and a good opportunity to fellowship and preach the gospel (I'm not making that up by the way).

Originally posted by Knight
Holidays bad...

Legalism...
"I do NOT celebrate holidays because Christians are forbidden to celebrate holidays."

Again, it's not legalism if it is forbidden by scripture. It isn't anymore legalistic than being or being with a prostitute, even if one's aim to merely enjoy oneself and to evangelize.

Originally posted by Knight
NOT legalism...
"I do NOT celebrate holidays because I choose not to but I certainly could if I wanted to."

This is not an option according to the scriptures. It isn't any more an option than being or being with a prostitute, even if one's aim is to merely enjoy oneself and evangelize. It is strictly forbidden to observe religious holidays. To do so dishonors the Word of God, and in particular, Paul's gospel. To observe religious holidays is to submit oneself to angels, which is strictly forbidden for the Body of Christ. It is the same reason why water baptism is forbidden. Religious ceremonies and symbolism invoked the angelic ministry for Israel. For members of the Body of Christ to do this dishonors the heirarchy that God has established between the households (oikonomia, i.e. dispensations).

Originally posted by Knight
And also maybe you could comment on the following I asked of Christine regarding the article she referenced on your website....

If Paul says "let no man judge you in holidays" why on earth should Christine let some man tell her that holidays are forbidden?

That's not what the verse means. See my earlier post to LightSon. The entire context shows that this isn't a matter of "giving creedance to someone else's discernment," as your and LightSon's view suggests, but rather of clear and unequivocal prohibition.

Celebrating Christmas, Easter, Passover, Sabbaths, Ramadan, Hanukah, etc. or any religious holiday is violation of Paul's gospel, just as is water baptism, and for the very same reasons.

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by Hilston

"... why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." (Col 2:23).

This is not optional. This is not a matter of preference. This is a glaring and emphatic prohibition.

That's fine, except that the key phrase is "subject to ordinances". Choosing to celebrate Christmass is entirely different than being subject to an ordinance.

"to be subject" means to be under its control, or to be forced to undergo or endure something. An ordinance is something required. I am not required to celebrate anything. In the context, an ordinance is something packaged up(by men) as a way to gain favor with God. These are the beggarly elements which we do well to cast off.

You have (unwittingly or maliciously) created a license to enjoy all manner of fleshly pursuits and salved your conscience to do so. You then turn around and attempt to bind my conscience regarding Jesus' birth celebration so that I might not take a moment and worship Christ in my own way.

Repent and give up the AC/DC lifestyle Jim. You've gotten yourself lost, and have given up any moral authority to speak concerning these matters. Until you stop catering to your flesh, your arguments will only serve to muddy the spiritual waters and lead the weak astray. I sense in you the capacity to be a great light, but playing the herald for spiritual wickedness in high places is not commensurate with your role as a child of the King.

 

[Yorzhik]

Jim, water baptism is only prohibited as a legal requirement. If one is baptised, with no consideration as to whether it will affect their salvation or relationship with God, then baptism is okay.

 

[Crow]

Romans 14

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

 

[Granite]

"Celebrating Christmas, Easter, Passover, Sabbaths, Ramadan, Hanukah, etc. or any religious holiday is violation of Paul's gospel, just as is water baptism, and for the very same reasons."

...and I would love to be there while you explain to a Muslim how he's violating the gospel of Paul by celebrating Ramadan.

I thought Paul warned his followers from senseless bickering. Which goes to show how often this injunction is adhered to.

Christians--taking the Christ out of Christmas since 2004! What a bunch of nuts. You people can't even agree to celebrate the birth of your savior on the day your church has traditionally observed it for centuries. And you expect everyone else to listen to you, get with the program, and accept Jesus. On this subject the legalists on this thread have more in common with Jehovah's Witnesses than mainstream Christianity.

What a zoo.

 

[Hilston]

Originally posted by LightSon
That's fine, except that the key phrase is "subject to ordinances". Choosing to celebrate Christmass is entirely different than being subject to an ordinance.

You have to read the rest of the passage. When Paul raises the issue of being subjected to ordinances, dogmatizesthe, he is referring to religious ceremonial restrictions. The passage covers all aspects of religious ritual and ceremony and symbolism. Paul's point is, since you are dead to those weak and beggarly elements (rudiments), why do you submit to the very kinds of things you've been freed from? Go ahead and leave out verse 20 if you must; the rest of the passage is emphatic, and there's no wiggle room. Those who celebrate religious ritual, ceremony, symbolism and holidays dishonor Christ as Head and rob Israel and the Nations of their special hope and calling.

Originally posted by LightSon
"to be subject" means to be under its control, or to be forced to undergo or endure something.

The Greek word dogmatizesthe is a present tense, passive indicative verb. If Paul is chiding them for being under such ordinances, it is because they've allowed themselves to be put under them.

Originally posted by LightSon
An ordinance is something required. I am not required to celebrate anything. In the context, an ordinance is something packaged up (by men) as a way to gain favor with God. These are the beggarly elements which we do well to cast off.

Like I said, go ahead and cut verse 20 out of your Bible; you're still stuck with the rest of the passage that prohibits Jewish holidays, pagan religious holidays, and made up religious holidays (such as Christmas and Astarte, i.e. Easter).

Originally posted by LightSon
You have (unwittingly or maliciously) created a license to enjoy all manner of fleshly pursuits and salved your conscience to do so.

How so?

Originally posted by LightSon
You then turn around and attempt to bind my conscience regarding Jesus' birth celebration so that I might not take a moment and worship Christ in my own way.

That's what Cain tried to do, remember? He thought he would worship in his own way and God rejected him for it. The Bible has harsh words for those who worship God in their own way and try to do what is right in their own eyes. The end thereof is death.

Originally posted by LightSon
Repent and give up the AC/DC lifestyle Jim.

Whaaaaaat? What "AC/DC" lifestyle am I living?

Originally posted by LightSon
You've gotten yourself lost, and have given up any moral authority to speak concerning these matters.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Have you even read my response in the other thread? I spent quite some time on it. Perhaps you could at least read it and offer your counter arguments. Here's the link:
LightSon's Legalism

Originally posted by LightSon
Until you stop catering to your flesh, your arguments will only serve to muddy the spiritual waters and lead the weak astray. I sense in you the capacity to be a great light, but playing the herald for spiritual wickedness in high places is not commensurate with your role as a child of the King.

Christ commanded His disciples to make a righteous judgment. I urge you to answer the post I linked to above and beware of making unrighteousness judgments. What I find fascinating is that you would have me give up music and activities that are not prohibited in scripture, for unbiblical reasons, based on the opinion of your legalistic pastor or church tenet, yet you turn around and advocate behavior that is unequivocally prohibited in scripture. Go figure. :kookoo:

 

[Granite]

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/christmas.html

Always good for a laugh.

 

[Lucky]

Originally posted by Yorzhik

Jim, water baptism is only prohibited is as a legal requirement. If one is baptised, with no consideration as to whether it will affect their salvation or relationship with God, then baptism is okay.

:up:

 

[Hilston]

Originally posted by Yorzhik

Jim, water baptism is only prohibited is as a legal requirement. If one is baptised, with no consideration as to whether it will affect their salvation or relationship with God, then baptism is okay.

This is incorrect, Yorzhik. It is absolutely and non-negotiably prohibited. Please read my previous posts. Please read this link HERE.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/christmas.html

Always good for a laugh.

:granite:

Always good for nothing.

 

[Hilston]

Actually, I laughed pretty hard at a lot of the stuff on that site. "Accept Jesus and get a Sony Playstation 2." I almost spit my beer when I saw that.

P.S. I wouldn't recommended it for minors or those of weak constitution.

P.P.S. Go Stillers!!!!

 

[OMEGA]

THUMBS DOWN ON CHRISTMAS !!

IF GOD HATES IT ,

THEN I HATE IT.

 

[Yorzhik]

Originally posted by Hilston
This is incorrect, Yorzhik. It is absolutely and non-negotiably prohibited. Please read my previous posts. Please read this link HERE.

I've read your previous posts, and they especially don't explain. And I've read the link (this is not the first time I've read "the Seven Ones" on tgfonline) and I still don't see exactly where the prohibition is substantiated. Could you be a little more specific? This isn't like murder… getting consenting adults wet is not part of the The Seven Laws of Noah (not that I agree with them, but they make a decent starting framework).

 

[Hilston]

Yorzhik,

If the Body of Christ is to honor the created order that God has established, and if an essential understanding of that created order informs us that all religious ceremony, ritual, symbol and holidays are contrary to the what God has established, then it follows that Paul would command us to abstain from the weak and beggarly elements/rudiments of Israel, the nations, and the pagans. And that's exactly what we see in his epistles to the Body of Christ. It is thus substantiated, unmistakably. That's what my previous posts explain. If you don't see them as explaining anything, I guess you and I are done. What else can I say, especially if you don't come back with any specific questions?

By the way, it is worse than murder. Murder is a sin against another man and his loved ones. Water baptism is a sin against God directly. Theological sins are much worse.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Being a student of scripture and having done the math, I know that Our Lord the Christ was born on the Feast of Tabernacles and not on December 25th.

Okay, I have known for quite some time that Dec. 25th is not the actual date of His birth, but I have never realized that the Bible gives evidence as to when the date actually was. Could you please tell me what verses give this information, and when the Feast of the Tabernacles is.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Hilston

The only way to stop someone from judging (krino, distinguishing, regulating, esteeming) you according to religious holidays is to abstain from them. Even if this verse were absent, the context is emphatic.

Well, it seems that you can be judged for your unobservance as well. So you just contradicted yourself, Jim.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

get with the program, and accept Jesus.

Take your own advice.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Hilston

Water baptism is a sin against God directly. Theological sins are much worse.

To quote someone else:
"I almost spit my beer when I saw that."

 

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by granite1010

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/christmas.html

Always good for a laugh.

No Kiddin'!

Should Unsaved People Be Allowed To Celebrate Christmas?


I'm sure all you Godly folks sitting in this church today know how I feel about unsaved people celebrating Christmas. But do you know how God feels about it? Well, I'm just about to tell you. It drives Him into a blood vessel popping, demon stomping rage. Ever wonder why so many folks die horrible, painful deaths in November and December each year? Well, now you know. The Lord kills them. You see, when an unsaved child sits around the tree on Christmas morning – the same tree the baby Jesus played in front of when Mary and Joseph celebrated Christmas -- opening gifts - with each peel of the wrapper that little child is taking a whip to the Lord's back. And it pains Him so! And the Lord doesn't just get angry, my friends! – He gets even!

Because unsaved children don't deserve any gifts, much less gifts that celebrate a Savior their parents have denounced! It's like the little tykes are going to a birthday party they weren't invited to and stealing all of the birthday boy's presents! Now, some of you yellow-bellied New Age Christians who don't go to Landover and are listening to me on your fancy satellite might be thinking, "Oh, but Jesus loves the little children." Well, I have news for you: just because a silly little song says something, don't make it so! Jesus hates children who don't flatter Him and give Him His due. In fact, the Lord gets so jealous when people don’t pay enough attention to Him that He even punishes little children for things their daddies might have done! (Exodus 20:5)

So my friends, if a 4-year-old's parents are unsaved, it is just like that little child himself spit in Jesus' eye. It don't make a lick of difference to the Lord. You doubt me? Did the Lord go around asking little babies if they wanted to "opt out" of the Great Flood? No sir! He just went right ahead and drown them little kids! God knows that sin is in the blood, and the only way to get rid of it, it to snuff out entire bloodlines. He taught us that with the Great Flood, and people still snub their noses and refuse to learn that lesson!

:darwinsm:

 

[BillyBob]

I didn't know that God has blood vessels. :doh: