Are pro-lifers who say No exception 4 rape/incest.. extremists?

genuineoriginal

New member
I admit that there is some inconsistency with that part of my position. The hesitation on my part comes from the fact that children born due to incest are much more commonly born severely disabled than those born of a non-incestual union.
Your hesitation on the basis of children born disabled opens the argument up to everyone that thinks disabled children should be aborted, regardless of any hint of incest.
You do realize that, right?

That being said, I'm open to considering not allowing an exception in cases of incest so long as it was consensual.

Yes, if you are putting an unnecessary burden on a woman who has already been through a situation so traumatic that they are impacted in the way(s) you mention above then I believe that is wrong. Terribly wrong.
Your belief that putting an "unnecessary burden" as you call it on a woman opens the argument to anyone that can claim any reason at all as an "unnecessary burden".
You do realize that, right?

I trust other people can read a conversation for themselves and come to the same conclusion that you are just wrong in your above comment.
Or they read what I wrote in this post and realize that your arguments do nothing but open the door for abortion for any and all reasons.

Your opinion that traumatized women should be permitted to murder their own children is just wrong.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
That is your opinion. But it is not my opinion, just a fact, that you went far beyond twisting my words and went into the realm of flat-out lying. I'm sorry if you regret doing that, but it is what happened and I won't apologize for calling you on it
And I don't consider it "flat-out lying" to call you out on your obvious attempt to create embarrassment, shame, and fear of ridicule in women that have been raped.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
It certainly didn't stop you from doing it again right now

Maybe in your mind you really believe that you are not attempting to create embarrassment, shame, and fear of ridicule in women that have been raped.

Maybe in your mind it is always the other person that is attempting to create embarrassment, shame, and fear of ridicule in women that have been raped.

You seem to have an expectation that women that have gotten pregnant through rape will be embarrassed, feel shame, and fear ridicule if they do not murder their child.
It is that expectation of yours, verbalized in discussions about rape and abortion, that perpetuates the emotions of embarrassment, shame, and fear of ridicule that you claim will be cured by murdering the child.

So, no, I was not lying when I called you out, but it is likely that you assumed I was lying because you refuse to acknowledge the part your expectations play in promoting the very emotions you claim are reasons to murder the child.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Your hesitation on the basis of children born disabled opens the argument up to everyone that thinks disabled children should be aborted, regardless of any hint of incest.
You do realize that, right?
I'm not talking about some minor deficiency. Do some research man. Just for once in your life. I'm talking about genetic mutations that diminish quality of life so heavily that they really have no quality of life.

Your belief that putting an "unnecessary burden" as you call it on a woman opens the argument to anyone that can claim any reason at all as an "unnecessary burden".
You do realize that, right?
No, that's completely stupid. It only applies in cases where the woman was impregnated by RAPE. That situation is pretty unique and distinguishable from other cases where someone would claim unecessary burden. I cannot - just cannot - believe that you can't see that.


Or they read what I wrote in this post and realize that your arguments do nothing but open the door for abortion for any and all reasons.
As explained above, that's stupid.

Your opinion that traumatized women should be permitted to murder their own children is just wrong.
Another emotional plea containing false language by you. From my brief exchanges with you regarding science, specifically evolution, I know that you have no knowledge of scientific data and its importance in an honest discussion. People like you who have no understanding or regard for science often resort to emotional trigger words to try and rally people to their cause. On an online forum, sometimes that can work (especially in a place where most people are on your side to begin with), but in the real world it doesn't. And for the same reason that your lack of scientific knowledge doesn't affect how the world views the theory of evolution, your lack of knowledge on this subject doesn't change people's minds in the country regarding abortion exceptions in cases of rape and/or incest. So enjoy yourself here, because you won't be taken seriously anywhere else
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Maybe in your mind you really believe that you are not attempting to create embarrassment, shame, and fear of ridicule in women that have been raped.

Maybe in your mind it is always the other person that is attempting to create embarrassment, shame, and fear of ridicule in women that have been raped.

You seem to have an expectation that women that have gotten pregnant through rape will be embarrassed, feel shame, and fear ridicule if they do not murder their child.
It is that expectation of yours, verbalized in discussions about rape and abortion, that perpetuates the emotions of embarrassment, shame, and fear of ridicule that you claim will be cured by murdering the child.

So, no, I was not lying when I called you out, but it is likely that you assumed I was lying because you refuse to acknowledge the part your expectations play in promoting the very emotions you claim are reasons to murder the child.

I've had more meaningful conversations with walls than this one with you
 

genuineoriginal

New member
I'm not talking about some minor deficiency. Do some research man. Just for once in your life. I'm talking about genetic mutations that diminish quality of life so heavily that they really have no quality of life.
You are assuming a parent-child or sibling relationship.
You should look up the risks.
Here is a link:
Consanguinity Fact Sheet -- Debunking Common Myths

No, that's completely stupid. It only applies in cases where the woman was impregnated by RAPE. That situation is pretty unique and distinguishable from other cases where someone would claim unecessary burden. I cannot - just cannot - believe that you can't see that.
I can see that you believe your perceived difference in the case is different, but the facts that have been proven by the statistics on abortion show that allowing an exception for rape is seen as justification to murder the child for any and all perceived "unnecessary burdens".
You really should check out the facts.
Abortion History Timeline

Another emotional plea containing false language by you.
The discussions on abortion is always a battle of words and ideas.
You say "terminate a pregnancy" to sanitize the act.
I say "murder a child" to show how dirty the act is.
You say "fetus" to distance yourself.
I say "human baby" to remove that distance.

No, your argument against the words used is only a smoke screen that you are trying to throw up.

From my brief exchanges with you regarding science, specifically evolution, I know that you have no knowledge of scientific data and its importance in an honest discussion.
From my brief exchanges with you, it is obvious that you that have been so blinded by so-called science that you actually buy the big lie of evolution.

And for the same reason that your lack of scientific knowledge doesn't affect how the world views the theory of evolution, your lack of knowledge on this subject doesn't change people's minds in the country regarding abortion exceptions in cases of rape and/or incest.
It would be inconsistent to profess a belief in the Bible and also believe in evolution, and since evolution science is really a religion, my choice was clear.

Likewise, it would be inconsistent to profess a pro-life stance and also claim that it is just fine and dandy in the cases of rape and incest.

Your choice should be clear.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
I've had more meaningful conversations with walls than this one with you
I am sure that is true.

Here is some more information for you.

_____
Rape, Incest, and Abortion: Searching Beyond the Myths
. . .
Abortion is not some magical surgery which turns back time to make a woman "un-pregnant." Instead, it is a real life event which is always very stressful and often traumatic. Once we accept that abortion is itself an event with ramifications on a woman's life, then we must carefully look at the special circumstances of the pregnant rape victim. Will an abortion truly console her, or will it only cause further injury to her already bruised psyche?

In answering this question, it is helpful to begin by noting that many women report that their abortions felt like a degrading and brutal form of medical rape.2 This association between abortion and rape is not hard to understand.

Abortion involves a painful examination of a woman's sexual organs by a masked stranger who is invading her body. Once she is on the operating table, she loses control over her body. If she protests and asks for the abortionist to stop, she will likely be ignored or told: "It's too late to change your mind. This is what you wanted. We have to finish now." And while she lies there tense and helpless, the life hidden within her is literally sucked out of her womb. The difference? In a sexual rape, a woman is robbed of her purity; in this medical rape she is robbed of her maternity.

This experiential association between abortion and sexual assault is very strong for many women. It is especially strong for women who have a prior history of sexual assault, whether or not she is presently pregnant as the result of an assault.3 This is just one reason why women with a history of sexual assault are likely to experience greater distress during and after an abortion than other women.

Second, research shows that after any abortion, it is common for women to experience guilt, depression, feelings of being "dirty," resentment of men, and lowered self-esteem. What is most significant is that these feelings are identical to what women typically feel after rape. Abortion, then, only adds to and accentuates the traumatic feelings associated with sexual assault. Rather than easing the psychological burdens of the sexual assault victim, abortion adds to them.

This was the experience of Jackie Bakker, who reports: "I soon discovered that the aftermath of my abortion continued a long time after the memory of my rape had faded. I felt empty and horrible. Nobody told me about the pain I would feel deep within causing nightmares and deep depressions. They had all told me that after the abortion I could continue my life as if nothing had happened."

Those encouraging abortion often do so because they are uncomfortable dealing with rape victims, or perhaps out of prejudice against victims whom they see as being "guilty for letting it happen." Wiping out the pregnancy is a way of hiding the problem. It is a "quick and easy" way to avoid dealing with the woman's true emotional, social and financial needs.

According to Kathleen DeZeeuw, "I, having lived through rape, and also having raised a child 'conceived in rape,' feel personally assaulted and insulted every time I hear that abortion should be legal because of rape and incest. I feel that we're being used by pro-abortionists to further the abortion issue, even though we've not been asked to tell our side."

The case against abortion of incest pregnancies is even stronger. Studies show that incest victims rarely ever voluntarily agree to an abortion.4 Instead of viewing the pregnancy as unwanted, the incest victim is more likely to see the pregnancy as a way out of the incestuous relationship because the birth of her child will expose the sexual activity. She is also likely to see in her pregnancy the hope of bearing a child with whom she can establish a true loving relationship, one far different than the exploitive relationship in which she has been trapped.

But while the incest victim may treasure her pregnancy because it offers her hope of release, and the hope of finding a nurturing love, her pregnancy is a threat to the exploiter. It is also a threat to the pathological secrecy which may envelop other members of the family who are afraid to acknowledge that the abuse is occurring. Because of this dual threat, the victim may be coerced into an unwanted abortion by both the abuser and other family members.

For example, Edith Young, a 12-year-old victim of incest impregnated by her stepfather, writes twenty-five years after the abortion of her child: "Throughout the years I have been depressed, suicidal, furious, outraged, lonely, and have felt a sense of loss... The abortion which was to 'be in my best interest' just has not been. As far as I can tell, it only 'saved their reputations,' 'solved their problems,' and 'allowed their lives to go merrily on.'... My daughter, how I miss her so. I miss her regardless of the reason for her conception."

Abortion providers who ignore this evidence, and neglect to interview minors presented for abortion for signs of coercion or incest, are actually contributing to the young girl's victimization. They are not only robbing the victim of her child, they are concealing a crime, abetting a perpetrator, and handing the victim back to her abuser so that the exploitation can continue.

Finally, we must recognize that the children conceived through sexual assault also have a voice which deserves to be heard. Julie Makimaa, conceived by an act of rape, works diligently against the perception that abortion is acceptable or even necessary in cases of sexual assault. While sympathetic to the suffering her mother endured at the hands of her attacker, Julie is also rightfully proud of her mother's courage and generosity. Regarding her own view of her origin, Julie proclaims: "It doesn't matter how I began. What matters is who I will become."

That's a slogan we can all live with.
_____​
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Then don't.

I didn't.

It is possible to have a civil debate about this but if you take the low road you shouldn't be too surprised if people don't react positively to it.

There are no *positives* when it comes to defending and advocating for the killing of unborn babies. The *low road* is the one that begins with "woman should be allowed to kill their unborn baby IF ..."
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I think you'll find that a large chunk of the population disagrees with you there.

You say that is though it should matter. I don't agree that it's okay for women to sacrifice their unborn babies because they associate the child with his/her father.

It's not okay to hold children (the unborn included) responsible for the actions of their parents.

But you are obviously welcome to your opinion

Really. I am so relieved. Thanks so much for notifying me that my opinion is welcome.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
You are assuming a parent-child or sibling relationship.
You should look up the risks.
Here is a link:
Consanguinity Fact Sheet -- Debunking Common Myths
If I am terminating the child, yes I am assuming that relationship.

The discussions on abortion is always a battle of words and ideas.
You say "terminate a pregnancy" to sanitize the act.
I say "murder a child" to show how dirty the act is.
You say "fetus" to distance yourself.
I say "human baby" to remove that distance.
In what way does "human baby" differ from "child"?

From my brief exchanges with you, it is obvious that you that have been so blinded by so-called science that you actually buy the big lie of evolution.
I'm trying not to laugh. I failed.

It would be inconsistent to profess a belief in the Bible and also believe in evolution, and since evolution science is really a religion, my choice was clear.
Interesting, since most Christians today believe in both.

Likewise, it would be inconsistent to profess a pro-life stance and also claim that it is just fine and dandy in the cases of rape and incest.

Your choice should be clear.
Just as you are wrong about the evolution-Christianity ability to coexist (that's not disputable), I believe you to be wrong on their abortion exception issue
 

republicanchick

New member
i wish i had time to read all these posts..

but I recommend reading books, articles.. written by people who have worked in abortion mills.. and who have repented


++
 

Greg Jennings

New member
I am sure that is true.

Here is some more information for you.

_____
Rape, Incest, and Abortion: Searching Beyond the Myths
. . .
Abortion is not some magical surgery which turns back time to make a woman "un-pregnant." Instead, it is a real life event which is always very stressful and often traumatic. Once we accept that abortion is itself an event with ramifications on a woman's life, then we must carefully look at the special circumstances of the pregnant rape victim. Will an abortion truly console her, or will it only cause further injury to her already bruised psyche?

In answering this question, it is helpful to begin by noting that many women report that their abortions felt like a degrading and brutal form of medical rape.2 This association between abortion and rape is not hard to understand.

Abortion involves a painful examination of a woman's sexual organs by a masked stranger who is invading her body. Once she is on the operating table, she loses control over her body. If she protests and asks for the abortionist to stop, she will likely be ignored or told: "It's too late to change your mind. This is what you wanted. We have to finish now." And while she lies there tense and helpless, the life hidden within her is literally sucked out of her womb. The difference? In a sexual rape, a woman is robbed of her purity; in this medical rape she is robbed of her maternity.

This experiential association between abortion and sexual assault is very strong for many women. It is especially strong for women who have a prior history of sexual assault, whether or not she is presently pregnant as the result of an assault.3 This is just one reason why women with a history of sexual assault are likely to experience greater distress during and after an abortion than other women.

Second, research shows that after any abortion, it is common for women to experience guilt, depression, feelings of being "dirty," resentment of men, and lowered self-esteem. What is most significant is that these feelings are identical to what women typically feel after rape. Abortion, then, only adds to and accentuates the traumatic feelings associated with sexual assault. Rather than easing the psychological burdens of the sexual assault victim, abortion adds to them.

This was the experience of Jackie Bakker, who reports: "I soon discovered that the aftermath of my abortion continued a long time after the memory of my rape had faded. I felt empty and horrible. Nobody told me about the pain I would feel deep within causing nightmares and deep depressions. They had all told me that after the abortion I could continue my life as if nothing had happened."

Those encouraging abortion often do so because they are uncomfortable dealing with rape victims, or perhaps out of prejudice against victims whom they see as being "guilty for letting it happen." Wiping out the pregnancy is a way of hiding the problem. It is a "quick and easy" way to avoid dealing with the woman's true emotional, social and financial needs.

According to Kathleen DeZeeuw, "I, having lived through rape, and also having raised a child 'conceived in rape,' feel personally assaulted and insulted every time I hear that abortion should be legal because of rape and incest. I feel that we're being used by pro-abortionists to further the abortion issue, even though we've not been asked to tell our side."

The case against abortion of incest pregnancies is even stronger. Studies show that incest victims rarely ever voluntarily agree to an abortion.4 Instead of viewing the pregnancy as unwanted, the incest victim is more likely to see the pregnancy as a way out of the incestuous relationship because the birth of her child will expose the sexual activity. She is also likely to see in her pregnancy the hope of bearing a child with whom she can establish a true loving relationship, one far different than the exploitive relationship in which she has been trapped.

But while the incest victim may treasure her pregnancy because it offers her hope of release, and the hope of finding a nurturing love, her pregnancy is a threat to the exploiter. It is also a threat to the pathological secrecy which may envelop other members of the family who are afraid to acknowledge that the abuse is occurring. Because of this dual threat, the victim may be coerced into an unwanted abortion by both the abuser and other family members.

For example, Edith Young, a 12-year-old victim of incest impregnated by her stepfather, writes twenty-five years after the abortion of her child: "Throughout the years I have been depressed, suicidal, furious, outraged, lonely, and have felt a sense of loss... The abortion which was to 'be in my best interest' just has not been. As far as I can tell, it only 'saved their reputations,' 'solved their problems,' and 'allowed their lives to go merrily on.'... My daughter, how I miss her so. I miss her regardless of the reason for her conception."

Abortion providers who ignore this evidence, and neglect to interview minors presented for abortion for signs of coercion or incest, are actually contributing to the young girl's victimization. They are not only robbing the victim of her child, they are concealing a crime, abetting a perpetrator, and handing the victim back to her abuser so that the exploitation can continue.

Finally, we must recognize that the children conceived through sexual assault also have a voice which deserves to be heard. Julie Makimaa, conceived by an act of rape, works diligently against the perception that abortion is acceptable or even necessary in cases of sexual assault. While sympathetic to the suffering her mother endured at the hands of her attacker, Julie is also rightfully proud of her mother's courage and generosity. Regarding her own view of her origin, Julie proclaims: "It doesn't matter how I began. What matters is who I will become."

That's a slogan we can all live with.
_____​

You have to go to a third party for reliable information. Since we were on the subject of evolution just now, I'll use that as my analogy. The site you pulled these "facts" from (abortionfacts.com) is the abortion equivalent of Answers in Genesis: biased, closed-minded, not wanting a dialogue, and starting from a preconceived assumption with little to no scientific backbone. Like AiG, they don't pretend to be objective, bust actually revel in their subjectivity.

Now I'll admit that unlike with evolution, it's hard (perhaps impossible) to find truly unbiased abortion information. In light of that, you have to look at two sources from complete opposite sides of the spectrum and realize the truth is somewhere in the middle.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
You say that is though it should matter. I don't agree that it's okay for women to sacrifice their unborn babies because they associate the child with his/her father.

It's not okay to hold children (the unborn included) responsible for the actions of their parents.
More pure opinion with emotionally charged language

Really. I am so relieved. Thanks so much for notifying me that my opinion is welcome.
Why do I try to be civil with people who have no interest in civility?
 

genuineoriginal

New member
If I am terminating the child, yes I am assuming that relationship.
Even then, your excuse for murdering the baby is without substance.

In what way does "human baby" differ from "child"?
I am assuming you made a mistake there and meant to ask:
In what way does "terminate a pregnancy" differ from "murder a child"?
In what way does "fetus" differ from "human baby"?

People have been conditioned to look the other way when someone is "terminating a pregnancy" but to look in horror when someone is "murdering a child".
People have been conditioned to ignore the death of a "fetus" but want to stop the death of a "human baby".

It is all about your words trying to desensitize people from the horror of the act and my words trying to resensitize people to the horror of the act.

Interesting, since most Christians today believe in both.
Most Christians today have chosen to go through the wide gate on the broad way.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.​


Just as you are wrong about the evolution-Christianity ability to coexist (that's not disputable), I believe you to be wrong on their abortion exception issue
You really mean that just as I am right that there can be no compromise between evolution and Christianity, there can be no compromise in the abortion debate.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Now I'll admit that unlike with evolution, it's hard (perhaps impossible) to find truly unbiased abortion information. In light of that, you have to look at two sources from complete opposite sides of the spectrum and realize the truth is somewhere in the middle.
In other words, you love to sit on the fence and pretend you are on both sides.
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Why do I try to be civil with people who have no interest in civility?

You consider yourself civil?

Greg Jennings said:
More pure opinion with emotionally charged language

:think:

Greg Jennings said:
You do realize that I am against abortion in all cases but rape and incest don't you? Probably not. Probably didn't care to find out

WHY are you against all other abortions?
 

Greg Jennings

New member
You consider yourself civil?



:think:
Yep. I wouldn't have said that to you if you hadn't been screaming "baby murderer!" at me like Nancy Grace for no good reason over the entire thread.



WHY are you against all other abortions?
Surely I've answered this about a dozen times by now, but I'll take another stab at it. Why not?

Because the mother should be held accountable for the choice that she made to bring a living thing into the world, and should be made to care for that living thing. Of course in cases of rape, she did not make this decision, but instead had it forced upon her in the worst of ways.
That's WHY I am against abortion in all other cases.
 
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