Are you Going to Heaven?

[musterion]

@Clete Please address this:

Many people believe 1 Cor 15:3-4 but not that God saves through faith alone. They believe that something in addition (on top of trusting in the DBR) is needed to save them. Do you believe such persons are saved?

 

[Clete]

@Clete

The work of Christ for our salvation and justification was either 100% complete and satisfactory to God...or it wasn't. Paul says it was, Col 2:13 and elsewhere.

So anyone who adds any kind or amount of work, be it religious ritual or behavior modification - even if only 1% of the sum offered to God - is saying Christ's death was only 99% effective in saving them.

That's literally "another gospel" which cannot save them.

So, this response ignores my last post and merely repeats your position. My response to it is the same as before.

@Clete brought up another good point.

I think we agree that's just because Christ died for the sins of the world, the world is not automatically thereby saved. God requires and deserves faith. That's the terms He laid down for us to be saved. If we don't give Him that faith, we cannot be saved.

This is mostly true, of course, but I would point out that the undoing of the curse that Adam wrought upon the human race was undone at the cross for the whole human race, regardless of what they do or do not believe. Thus, babies are born innocent and no one will go to Hell because they were "born into sin" or "conceived in sin" or because of our sin nature or any other "original sin" nonsense but rather only in punishment those sins which he himself has committed.

But faith in what?

Faith in what He says to us that He did to save us. And He expressly tells us that our works are excluded.

But, as stated above, putting even 1% of our faith in our own righteous works will damn us forever, even if we simultaneously give 99% of the credit to Christ. Otherwise, inescapably iron logic would compel us to embrace "Christian universalism:" EVERYONE who believed 1 Cor 15:3-4 would be saved regardless of whatever other falseness they also believed was necessary to save them. And I think we know that just isn't so.

You seem to keep moving the goal post here. The list of doctrines I've presented include much more than 1 Cor 15:3-4 and what you think we all know is not an argument and the fact that you feel the need to make such a statement is evidence that you're not too confident in the strength of what argument you have made.

One's salvation does not hinge on what they get wrong but on what they get right and so long as whatever error has been made is not sufficient to cause the rejection of the gospel as stated in those doctrines which I have listed then the gospel has been accepted and whatever errors have been made are insufficient to overcome the saving power of that gospel.

I do, however, completely agree with you that salvation is entirely by grace through faith alone apart from works. You might notice that there is no mention of any requirement to do good works in that list of doctrines. The intentional leaving out of any requirement for works in that list of doctrines is sufficient to communicate that the gospel does not included such a requirement. It is, after all a list of affirmative doctrines which must be accepted as true. It is not a list of negative doctrines which list stuff that must be rejected. If it were the later, where would we stop? Does my list have to include the rejection of the book of Mormon as scripture? Is it not impossible for any Mormon to affirm that list of doctrines and remain a Mormon unless he's packed meaning into the words that alter their meaning to such a degree sufficient to effectively destroy the list?

Clete

 

[musterion]

Second or third time I've asked this:

@Clete :

Many people believe 1 Cor 15:3-4 but not that God saves through faith alone. They believe that doing something in addition (on top of trusting in the DBR) is needed to save them and that no one can be saved without doing it.

Do you believe such persons are saved?

Yes or no, please.

 

[Clete]

Second or third time I've asked this:

@Clete :

Many people believe 1 Cor 15:3-4 but not that God saves through faith alone. They believe that doing something in addition (on top of trusting in the DBR) is needed to save them and that no one can be saved without doing it.

Do you believe such persons are saved?

Yes or no, please.

I've answered that question....

I believe that anyone - ANYONE - is saved if they believe the following....

1. God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
2. We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
3. Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
4. Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
5. Jesus rose from the dead.
6. If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

 

[musterion]

I've answered that question....

I believe that anyone - ANYONE - is saved if they believe the following....

1. God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
2. We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
3. Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
4. Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
5. Jesus rose from the dead.
6. If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

By your parameters, Catholics and Mormons are saved. Thanks for confirming what I'd begun to suspect.

 

[Clete]

By your parameters, Catholics and Mormons are saved.

This is just isn't true!

Catholics very often are saved, of course, but no Mormon has put his faith in the correct Jesus. They do not believe that Jesus is God become flesh. They believe that Jesus and Lucifer were both spirit brothers, sons of "the father", who used to be a good "Mormon" on some other planet. These two sons had a big fight over who would get to be the savior of the Earth and when Lucifer got snubbed, he rebelled with a third of the angels. Lucifer was subsequently cast out of heaven and became Satan while the third of the angels that rebelled with him were cast to the Earth and became the black race.

In short, Mormonism is blasphemy from start to finish and bares no resemblance whatsoever to biblical Christianity aside from the names and terminology they use.

Thanks for confirming what I'd begun to suspect.

There wasn't ever any mystery about what I believe and why I believe it. It isn't a secret and I've been as straight forward and clear as I know how to be. All I've ever asked you to do is to establish your claims which you have fallen far short of doing.

Am I now not saved in your view as well? Is it now your intention to castigate and deride me because I'm "preaching a false gospel"?

Or would you rather do the grown up thing and propose something that might improve that list of doctrines to more clearly convey Roman 4:5, which I've repeatedly asked you to do, without response.

 

[musterion]

This is just isn't true!

Looks like it is true.

Catholics very often are saved, of course,

If so, they're exceptions because it's always in spite of Rome's sacramental gospel, never because of it.

but no Mormon has put his faith in the correct Jesus.

Going by the slightly careless way your list is phrased, they'll argue that they are indeed saved.

They do not believe that Jesus is God become flesh. They believe that Jesus and Lucifer were both spirit brothers, sons of "the father", who used to be a good "Mormon" on some other planet. These two sons had a big fight over who would get to be the savior of the Earth and when Lucifer got snubbed, he rebelled with a third of the angels. Lucifer was subsequently cast out of heaven and became Satan while the third of the angels that rebelled with him were cast to the Earth and became the black race.

In short, Mormonism is blasphemy from start to finish and bares no resemblance whatsoever to biblical Christianity aside from the names and terminology they use.

I know all of this. I'm just going by your own phrasing.

There wasn't ever any mystery about what I believe and why I believe it. It isn't a secret and I've been as straight forward and clear as I know how to be. All I've ever asked you to do is to establish your claims which you have fallen far short of doing.

Am I now not saved in your view as well? Is it now your intention to castigate and deride me because I'm "preaching a false gospel"?

Or would you rather do the grown up thing and propose something that might improve that list of doctrines to more clearly convey Roman 4:5, which I've repeatedly asked you to do, without response.

I've already addressed this by pointing out how you've repeatedly made it clear that you think God is okay with people coupling the work of the Cross with some saving percentage of their own religious efforts. I simply believe Paul would absolutely not agree with you.

Salvation either requires human work, or human work is not merely unnecessary but expressly excluded. You appear to be straddling the fence on this but...consider...if work is indeed excluded, any so-called gospel that requires work - even if it includes the DBR - is false and cannot save because it's mixed lies with the truth. It makes God a liar.

 

[musterion]

@Trump Gurl

How much of Clete's list to you agree with?

1. God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
2. We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
3. Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
4. Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
5. Jesus rose from the dead.
6. If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED

 

[Clete]

Looks like it is true.

If so, they're exceptions because it's always in spite of Rome's sacramental gospel, never because of it.

That's precisely the point! Thank you for conceding the debate.

Going by the slightly careless way your list is phrased, they'll argue that they are indeed saved.

Not based on that list they wouldn't. There's no possible way they could. They DO NOT believe that Jesus Christ is the Creator become flesh - period. They would consider any such doctrine to be blasphemy. That single point alone puts them at direct odds with the gospel and disqualifies them as Christians of any flavor.

I know all of this. I'm just going by your own phrasing.

I don't believe you. Make the argument.

Based on my phrasing, how would a Mormon make any sort of argument that his beliefs are compatible with "my phrasing".

You started this discussion by being responsive and substantive. Don't start emulating the Nang's of the world now by ignoring this point and simply stating your position over and over again as though that's what making an argument is. Either make the argument or concede that you were wrong at least in regards to the Mormon half of your point.

As for the Catholic part of your point, they may well be able to make an argument but its hard to say for sure because Catholic belief is sort of all over the place when it comes to soteriology.

I'll ask you again, since you seem to have an issue with my phrasing, how would you rephrase it? I'm not just blowing smoke when I say that I'm open for any suggestions that might improve that list in any way but you've gotta convince me that it's valid. I'm not going to just take your word for it.

I've already addressed this by pointing out how you've repeatedly made it clear that you think God is okay with people coupling the work of the Cross with some saving percentage of their own religious efforts. I simply believe Paul would absolutely not agree with you.

I never said nor even implied that "God is okay with people coupling the work of the Cross with some saving percentage of their own religious efforts". I never said that and I don't believe it! Doing so is a sin! Paul's entire ministry is all about (to a large degree) getting his own followers to stop doing exactly that!

Salvation either requires human work, or human work is not merely unnecessary but expressly excluded. You appear to be straddling the fence on this

The list of doctrines I've submitted is expressly presented as the gospel proper. Where is there a single mention anywhere in it that works play any role in getting someone saved?

It isn't in there because I intentionally excluded it!

but...consider...if work is indeed excluded, any so-called gospel that requires work - even if it includes the DBR - is false and cannot save because it's mixed lies with the truth. It makes God a liar.

Well then my list is fine because, as I just said, that list of doctrines is quite intentionally bereft of any mention of good works.

Clete

 

[Trump Gurl]

. . . . good works. . . . .

Jesus made it quite clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that good works are necessary for salvation.

First there is this:

Matt 25:31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Next, we have Jesus saying many times things you must "DO" in order to be saved. Here is one tagged right on to the Lord's Prayer:

Matt 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


There it is: You must do ("do" = a work) these things are else your are not saved.

Case closed.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jesus made it quite clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that good works are necessary for salvation.

First there is this:

Matt 25:31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Next, we have Jesus saying many times things you must "DO" in order to be saved. Here is one tagged right on to the Lord's Prayer:

Matt 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


There it is: You must do ("do" = a work) these things are else your are not saved.

Case closed.

So Paul was lying?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:8-9&version=NKJV

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” - Romans 10:9-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:9-13&version=NKJV

 

[Trump Gurl]

So Paul was lying?

Did I say Paul was lying? No, I did not. Do you have a problem dealing with what I actually said instead of putting words in my mouth? Your form of argument is most immature.

I quoted Jesus Christ without editing his words. Your problem is with Jesus, not me.

I repeat:

Jesus made it quite clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that good works are necessary for salvation.

First there is this:

Matt 25:31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Next, we have Jesus saying many times things you must "DO" in order to be saved. Here is one tagged right on to the Lord's Prayer:

Matt 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


There it is: You must do ("do" = a work) these things are else your are not saved.

Case closed.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Did I say Paul was lying? No, I did not. Do you have a problem dealing with what I actually said instead of putting words in my mouth? Your form of argument is most immature.

I quoted Jesus Christ without editing his words. Your problem is with Jesus, not me.

I repeat:

Jesus made it quite clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that good works are necessary for salvation.

First there is this:

Matt 25:31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Next, we have Jesus saying many times things you must "DO" in order to be saved. Here is one tagged right on to the Lord's Prayer:

Matt 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


There it is: You must do ("do" = a work) these things are else your are not saved.

Case closed.

And what I quoted Paul as saying is in direct contradiction to Jesus saying that works are necessary.

So how do you reconcile what Paul said with what Jesus said?

 

[Trump Gurl]

 

[Clete]

I wonder if TG realizes that JR doesn't dispute that Jesus taught exact what she is claiming that He taught?

 

[musterion]

Jesus made it quite clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that good works are necessary for salvation.

First there is this:

Matt 25:31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Next, we have Jesus saying many times things you must "DO" in order to be saved. Here is one tagged right on to the Lord's Prayer:

Matt 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


There it is: You must do ("do" = a work) these things are else your are not saved.

Case closed.

Would you please tell us how much of Clete's list below that you agree with? I assume any Catholic would agree with all of it but would like you to say, please....

1. God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
2. We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
3. Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
4. Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
5. Jesus rose from the dead.
6. If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED

 

[Trump Gurl]

I wonder if TG realizes that JR doesn't dispute that Jesus taught exact what she is claiming that He taught?

I have my reasons for not getting into discussions with JR. Usually I state my case, perhaps reiterate it a few times, endure a few insults or false accusations, and then move on.

Would you please tell us how much of Clete's list below that you agree with? I assume any Catholic would agree with all of it but would like you to say, please....

1. God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
2. We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
3. Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
4. Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
5. Jesus rose from the dead.
6. If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED

I agree with all except number "six" assuming six includes Sola Fide. I believe in Sola Gratia , salvation by Grace Alone, but not by Faith Alone. I believe that works are essential. Not works of the Law as in the Law of Moses, but rather the things that Jesus asked us to do. Hence my post and the following video I also posted. Jesus specifically says there ae many things we must "do" to be saved, a fact overlooked by many.

And if anyone thinks that means that I believe I can Earn my salvation then they are sadly mistaken. The Church does not teach that we can earn our salvation, despite the many accusations that it does.

Earning implies doing work in return for something of equal value. No person can ever earn there salvation because its value is beyond human comprehension. However, if God makes us a promise of salvation and part of that promise includes us behaving and doing what he asks, then we can "merit" our salvation. Works that Jesus asks us to do, if done in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, can "merit" salvation.
NOT EARN, but merit, two very different things.


What Does it Mean to Merit Salvation?

 

[musterion]

I have my reasons for not getting into discussions with JR. Usually I state my case, perhaps reiterate it a few times, endure a few insults or false accusations, and then move on.




I agree with all except number "six" assuming

Don't assume anything, just take it exactly as written. Could you sign off on it as is?

 

[Trump Gurl]

Don't assume anything, just take it exactly as written. Could you sign off on it as is?

That depends on how I want to interpret number Six. If I give the word "Believe" a very broad definition then perhaps. If I take it to mean a simple mental agreement, then probably not.

Things are not always cut and dry despite how much you might want them to be.

Do you know why Conservatives want SCOTUS judges to consider Original Intent when making judgements? The intent of the author is an important factor. You non-Catholics would do well to keep that in mind when reading scripture as well.

 

[musterion]

One other thing: My impression from the thread title is that one can be assured of heaven. I disagree. Some say that all you have to do is “accept Christ as your personal Savior,” and it’s done. I disagree. Scripture teaches that someone’s salvation depends on the state of the soul at death.

The state of the old man is counted by God as crucified. He counts for nothing, Paul says (Romans chs 5-8).

The state of the new man is eternally alive forever with the life of Christ.

So yes, Paul teaches that the saved can indeed be assured of Heaven.