Are you personally culpable for your government's actions?

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I accept that my government's actions are wrong and that I must try and DO something about it for the blood of 'civilians' and other nationals are a stain on my honor and soul ('God')

Think about this along the lines of Adam being the federal representative of all mankind. He was placed on probation, given commands to obey. He failed to do so, and plunged all his progeny into sin.

To be "found guilty" is imputation by God of a quality or value. It doesn't matter (in one sense) whether a man is guilty, or thinks himself guilty or not-guilty (refuses the verdict), or accepts the verdict on some other basis. He is guilty because he's been "found guilty" by competent authority.

There are other federal-relations that may help us understand the ideas, by analogy. For instance, if our country is "at war," then I am at war whether or not I'm fully abreast of the situation, fully agree with the leaders to whom I'm covenanted as to the rightness of the war, am not a soldier in the battle, or other factors. They have committed me to the war, whether I am intelligibly engaged or not. I am guilty-by-association.

Now, maybe there exists some process, some formula, some appeal by which I may disentangle myself from the at-war situation, once I become aware of it or move to a position of disapproval. But the truth is, that most folks when they become aware of the situation acquiesce to it, or otherwise support it. They become willing participants in it almost by default. They may even oppose the situation, but they are more committed to their country and its needs, than to a principle that would set them at odds with the country (given the at-war situation). They will not "commit treason," nor will they even announce their dislike for the situation. In other words, people commit to the war at many levels. But even the children of the nation are "at-war." Nobody asked them. Tough. Reality often sucks.

The Bible tells us, to begin with, how the situation is, not how it might otherwise be. We are "guilty," born at-war with God, because Adam rebelled against God, and God condemned the whole human race to death, right there, right then. Of course, there is mercy present even at that moment, because Adam isn't executed. He is given room to repent, and he is allowed to have children (eventually even you and me), so as to give the elect opportunity to live, and to be saved from the condemnation. If God terminates Adam in the garden, then all of us "potential persons" in Adam are also eliminated then and there. We are condemned in solidarity with Adam.

And, we are redeemed in solidarity with Christ. We aren't redeemed or justified because we finally start looking good enough for God to accept us. Sanctification doesn't lead to justification. Justification leads to sanctification. Justification is never related to our inherent sanctity, in a like-parallel to our condemnation not on the basis of inherent guilt (primarily) but legal identification.

Adam can't produce "good seed." So, in a sense we are even less responsible for our sins proceeding, than for our basic federal-relation in Adam. The idea being: all things equal I'd rather be alive than not, but on that basis I'm tied to Adam (and his guilt). What he gives me, in consequence, is a corrupt nature, from which then proceed all my actual sins.

AMR

 

[kmoney]

Yes - It means trying to do something to affect change otherwise the State is piling up sins - This then leads to calls for repentance e.t.c. from other States.

I am but just one man so I can do so very little on my own. However I can see if others feel the way I do and together we become more able to affect change.

I feel it all the time that is why I have posted this thread. I am shocked how readily we accept things like 'War' and 'oppression' often saying 'it has always been like that' and calling me 'naive'.

ok, phrased like that I think I can agree with you. :up:

 

[Saxon Hammer]

Think about this along the lines of Adam being the federal representative of all mankind. He was placed on probation, given commands to obey. He failed to do so, and plunged all his progeny into sin.

To be "found guilty" is imputation by God of a quality or value. It doesn't matter (in one sense) whether a man is guilty, or thinks himself guilty or not-guilty (refuses the verdict), or accepts the verdict on some other basis. He is guilty because he's been "found guilty" by competent authority.

There are other federal-relations that may help us understand the ideas, by analogy. For instance, if our country is "at war," then I am at war whether or not I'm fully abreast of the situation, fully agree with the leaders to whom I'm covenanted as to the rightness of the war, am not a soldier in the battle, or other factors. They have committed me to the war, whether I am intelligibly engaged or not. I am guilty-by-association.

Now, maybe there exists some process, some formula, some appeal by which I may disentangle myself from the at-war situation, once I become aware of it or move to a position of disapproval. But the truth is, that most folks when they become aware of the situation acquiesce to it, or otherwise support it. They become willing participants in it almost by default. They may even oppose the situation, but they are more committed to their country and its needs, than to a principle that would set them at odds with the country (given the at-war situation). They will not "commit treason," nor will they even announce their dislike for the situation. In other words, people commit to the war at many levels. But even the children of the nation are "at-war." Nobody asked them. Tough. Reality often sucks.

The Bible tells us, to begin with, how the situation is, not how it might otherwise be. We are "guilty," born at-war with God, because Adam rebelled against God, and God condemned the whole human race to death, right there, right then. Of course, there is mercy present even at that moment, because Adam isn't executed. He is given room to repent, and he is allowed to have children (eventually even you and me), so as to give the elect opportunity to live, and to be saved from the condemnation. If God terminates Adam in the garden, then all of us "potential persons" in Adam are also eliminated then and there. We are condemned in solidarity with Adam.

And, we are redeemed in solidarity with Christ. We aren't redeemed or justified because we finally start looking good enough for God to accept us. Sanctification doesn't lead to justification. Justification leads to sanctification. Justification is never related to our inherent sanctity, in a like-parallel to our condemnation not on the basis of inherent guilt (primarily) but legal identification.

Adam can't produce "good seed." So, in a sense we are even less responsible for our sins proceeding, than for our basic federal-relation in Adam. The idea being: all things equal I'd rather be alive than not, but on that basis I'm tied to Adam (and his guilt). What he gives me, in consequence, is a corrupt nature, from which then proceed all my actual sins.

AMR

I thank you for your post - These word are from your learnings of the bible which it would seem is your 'life's work'. This whole post does not allow any reaction to 'sin' and proposes 'in-action' as I am full of the sins of 'Adam' and I am never free of them.

HOWEVER - I do not believe the 'bible' to be anything but the edited version of events that happened long ago. Furthermore the story of Adam says that he was made in God's image which is NOT a physical man but the 'holy spirit'. The knowledge Adam and Eve left the garden of Eden with is the same as our knowledge as we grow up and mature. The application of knowledge does not always have the effects that are desired because we UNLIKE God do not EVER have full knowledge. These then are the 'sins' we cannot avoid. However when we do something our knowledge tells us is wrong we may be 'sinning'. If we do something against our own 'holy ghost'/spirit/soul the we are definitely in 'sin'.

I have been involved with philosophy forums and discussion where there are a great many 'bibles' of thought about the 'human condition'. It is easier to see on these forums how 'learning' leads to loyalty or 'rejection' of of the book that has been studied and adoption for the individual of a particular 'doctrine'. The arguments presented are little different from that which is seen on this site. HOWEVER there is no spirit amongst the Philosophy forums here on this site I have seen Spirit and Love.

We are NOT born as sinners - We are immature.
Our parents are responsible for our good grace while we are children.
We mature and then become 'responsible' ourselves with the blessings of our parents.
This is NOW the time that we can 'sin', this is the time of highest risk to the rest of our lives. The proto adult has the largest part of their lives ahead.

The role of the Church is to help people to re-adjust themselves by 'seeking forgiveness', 'making restoration' or by repenting to 'ourselves' (our 'holy spirit' and God). The minister is often called 'father' and it is with 'love' and greater knowledge of the world and local community that this 'father' offers a response when called to do so by their flock.

I will not allow my 'soul' to be oppressed any more by non-action in the name of a book be it the 'bible' or any book of Philosophy.

This is the ministry of God, all around and within us.

 

[drbrumley]

[MENTION=19898]Saxon Hammer[/MENTION]

Um, I don't think so.....I guess it begs the questions,

1) How am I a member of a state/country

and

2) what system are you talking about?

Can you answer these questions for me please...please don't ignore em.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

HOWEVER - I do not believe the 'bible' to be anything but the edited version of events that happened long ago. Furthermore the story of Adam says that he was made in God's image which is NOT a physical man but the 'holy spirit'.

Never mind, then. Sigh.

AMR

 

[serpentdove]

Are you personally culpable for your government's actions?

No, not unless you voted for Donald Trump. :greedy: If you did, then you have blood on your hands--major blood coming by the way.

Individuals are judged and nations are judged. We don’t blame individuals for their wicked governments. North Korea for example1 —we don’t blame their residents. Christians are persecuted there.

1 That won't end well

for you all. :rapture:

 

[jgarden]

Consider the roads blocked up by robbers, the seas beset with pirates, wars scattered all over the earth with the bloody horror of camps. The whole world is wet with mutual blood; and murder, which in the case of an individual is admitted to be a crime, is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale.

— Cyprian of Carthage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_pacifism

"Cyprian of Carthage" addresses a basic disconnect in Christianity - how can we, as Christians, condemn the individual for committing murder motivated by personal reasons, but be praised for engaging in the same act - if done in the name of the nation?

 

[ok doser]

"Cyprian of Carthage" addresses a basic disconnect in Christianity - how can we, as Christians, condemn the individual for committing murder motivated by personal reasons, but be praised for engaging in the same act - if done in the name of the nation?

Christians recognize the difference between murder, which is unjust, and killing done in the name of justice

hence, hitler's attempts to exterminate the jewry of europe? unjust murder


american soldiers killing german soldiers to stop the slaughter? just killing

 

[Saxon Hammer]

Um, I don't think so.....I guess it begs the questions,

1) How am I a member of a state/country

and

2) what system are you talking about?

[MENTION=19898]Saxon Hammer[/MENTION]



Can you answer these questions for me please...please don't ignore em.

So you are a member of the state/country that you was born in - or you have somehow changed your nationality to another state/country.

You contribute to the mechanisms that sponsor the government members this is the system that is wrapped around you (all of us). If you have not changed the country of your birth then these systems will be almost missed but it ALL is there to be seen. This is what I refer to as the 'system'.

 

[Saxon Hammer]

No, not unless you voted for Donald Trump. :greedy: If you did, then you have blood on your hands--major blood coming by the way.

Individuals are judged and nations are judged. We don’t blame individuals for their wicked governments. North Korea for example1 —we don’t blame their residents. Christians are persecuted there.

1 That won't end well

for you all. :rapture:

Not american so did not vote for that man you all hate.

Nations are made up of their individuals so those people will be culpable just like the Germans felt for so many years after WW II.

Christians have persecuted many others on the journey through history.

Why is there so much HATE for the USA and the west in general? You mentioned N. Korea I wonder why they want to drop NUCLEAR missiles on your head!

 

[jgarden]

Christians recognize the difference between murder, which is unjust, and killing done in the name of justice

hence, hitler's attempts to exterminate the jewry of europe? unjust murder


american soldiers killing german soldiers to stop the slaughter? just killing

A persuasive argument - unfortunately its not based on the facts.

The average American was totally unaware throughout WW2 that Hitler was systematically exterminating Europe's Jews

Even when the Russians first reported finding these facilities in Poland, they were largely dismissed in the West as Soviet propaganda.

America didn't enter WW2 for noble motives, such as saving the Jews from fascism, she was forced as a response to Pearl Harbour followed by Germany's declaration of war in support of Japan a few days later!

 

[Saxon Hammer]

Never mind, then. Sigh.

AMR

Yep never mind anything else

 

[serpentdove]

Christians have persecuted many others on the journey through history.

Don’t confuse us with Catholics. linger: It’s always been their mission to murder Christians and Jews.

See:

Reformation Timeline

Why is there so much HATE for the USA and the west in general?

We are hated by the Left in general (Eccl 10:2, Jn 10:10).

 

[Saxon Hammer]

A persuasive argument - unfortunately its not based on the facts.

The average American was totally unaware throughout WW2 that Hitler was systematically exterminating Europe's Jews

Even when the Russians first reported finding these facilities in Poland, they were largely dismissed in the West as Soviet propaganda.

America didn't enter WW2 for noble motives, such as saving the Jews from fascism, she was forced as a response to Pearl Harbour followed by Germany's declaration of war in support of Japan a few days later!

Pull at one thread and the whole world and it's history must follow.

I say this as support not in argument.

Only in science is it possible to theorise and simplify NOT when it comes to human interactions.

 

[Saxon Hammer]

Christians recognize the difference between murder, which is unjust, and killing done in the name of justice

hence, hitler's attempts to exterminate the jewry of europe? unjust murder


american soldiers killing german soldiers to stop the slaughter? just killing

ALL killing is just killing nothing more nothing less.

This is no such thing as LAWFUL killing no matter what and any society that supports killing for any reason is therefore UN-LAWFUL according to God.

'Thou shalt not kill'

 

[Town Heretic]

ALL killing is just killing nothing more nothing less.

This is no such thing as LAWFUL killing no matter what and any society that supports killing for any reason is therefore UN-LAWFUL according to God.

'Thou shalt not kill'

Hey Saxon, that's not what the commandment actually says. It says you are forbidden to murder. God condoned killing in any number of situations in the New Testament and even commanded it.

 

[Saxon Hammer]

Hey Saxon, that's not what the commandment actually says. It says you are forbidden to murder. God condoned killing in any number of situations in the New Testament and even commanded it.

Sorry - That is what your book says (a book written 325 years after Jesus).

"Thou shalt not kill"

 

[Town Heretic]

Sorry - That is what your book says (a book written 325 years after Jesus).

"Thou shalt not kill"

Saxon, it doesn't. You need to look at the translation you have. And you mean a number of books compiled long after the death of Jesus. No idea why that matters, but to clarify the point.

Here's a part of a summary from the good folks at Got Questions:

There are two different Hebrew words (ratsakh, mut) and two Greek words (phoneuo, apokteino) for “murder” and “killing.” One means “to put to death,” and the other means “to murder.” The latter one is the one prohibited by the Ten Commandments, not the former.

In fact, ratsakh has a broader definition than the English word “murder.” Ratsakh also covers deaths due to carelessness or neglect but is never used when describing killing during wartime. That is why most modern translations render the sixth commandment “You shall not murder” rather than “You shall not kill.”


​

 

[Saxon Hammer]

Saxon, it doesn't. You need to look at the translation you have. And you mean a number of books compiled long after the death of Jesus. No idea why that matters, but to clarify the point.

Here's a part of a summary from the good folks at Got Questions:

There are two different Hebrew words (ratsakh, mut) and two Greek words (phoneuo, apokteino) for “murder” and “killing.” One means “to put to death,” and the other means “to murder.” The latter one is the one prohibited by the Ten Commandments, not the former.

In fact, ratsakh has a broader definition than the English word “murder.” Ratsakh also covers deaths due to carelessness or neglect but is never used when describing killing during wartime. That is why most modern translations render the sixth commandment “You shall not murder” rather than “You shall not kill.”


​

Thank you very much for this.......

I have been googling and was very surprised at the number of EXACT quote matches that are easily visible on the first page where "ratsakh, mut" is discussed in the same fashion as you present.

However it is my simple belief that in killing another we are killing a part of ourselves as we are reducing God. Each of us has a soul/holy spirit which is our own "God guide" however to be in this "physical existence" (God's creation) we have to obey the "physical rules". So we each also have a body that MUST survive unto its own laws. This body is naturally of the animal kingdom HOWEVER at our maturity we should be in command of that animal and not still slave to it like our ancestors (apes) where/are.

This is "discipline" and needs to be taught to all our children with equal measure so that they may be "mature" when they are "adult".

I have also found other more fully rounded accounts of "ratsakh, mut" and its derived meaning in English. I wonder if you know (I do not yet) how much Hebrew is part of the foundations of the bible (and future evolutions).

The reason I am "hung up" on the bible being written by people long after the event is simply due to the knowledge, I believe we all share, that any group of people, with the volume and type of data required to produce a document like the bible, at the time of creation would be VERY focused in their aims. The fact also that in many places, other biblical scholars, have come into contention over opposing views presented in the bible. Further "difficulties" would then also be posed when you consider there has been 2000 years of "revision" and "divides" within the Christian faith as a whole.

There is but one God. However there are many bibles.

 

[Saxon Hammer]

Hello Town,

I have your reputation comment but I do not understand its meaning. Also I do not know how to find it again so I can be sure in repeating it. So again sorry if I misquote you.

Smiles facing Da nada with beer in their hands.

English. "De nada" means (literally) that there's nothing to be thankful about. "No hay nada que agradecer". It's semantically similar to "not at all", but it can also be correctly translated to "You're welcome".

As you can see above, I had to translate as it is not english.

I think you are saying 'you are welcome' and you are happy to be sharing 'like a toast/salute' with me. I feel the same way - you share your knowledge and listen to my words - a dialogue - the 'ology' in Theology according to the 'Greeks'

Sorry I have to send this here I am unable to 'private message' you (Town)