Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VII

[isaiah 1:18]

Bmyers...

Huh? :chuckle:

Many thanks for the corrections and "amplifications."

and...

"...two beings of equal greatness who are said to occupy all space cannot occupy all space simultaneously." -Isaiah 1:18. circa 2003

"...two beings could not be "equal in greatness" and in all other aspects without being identical - that is, in truth only one being." Bmyers. Circa 2003

On monotheism and why God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are one being. And on how Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva (and the various other lesser manifestations) are all contained in Brahman.

But allow me yet another chance to attempt to show why two beings of equal greatness(in all aspects, thank you Bmyers) cannot occupy all places at once. This will be elementary at the most.

To start; some math: 1 portion of existence + infinite existence = infinite existence.

For two or more beings of equal greatness (in all aspects) to simultaneously dwell everywhere(be omnipresent) and yet be distinct, seems an impossiblity. If they are all occupying the same existence, how should their difference be recognized? The collective difference in existence will be only one distinct presence said to possess all existence and all collective attributes.

Could this be what is meant in the following?:

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.


This is the best I can do towards explaining how God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one without simply saying, "just have faith and don't worry about it."

 

[bob b]

and the religion doesn't seem to have borrowed much in the way of theology or philosophy from its Roman predecessor.

If one recognizes that the Romans borrowed heavily from the Greeks, then one can say with great assurance that the current Christianity of the Western World is heavily infused with Greco-Roman thought.

 

[bmyers]

Originally posted by isaiah 1:18

Many thanks for the corrections and "amplifications."

Pun noted. We should probably now discuss whether willful punning is a mortal sin, or merely a venal one...

For two or more beings of equal greatness (in all aspects) to simultaneously dwell everywhere(be omnipresent) and yet be distinct, seems an impossiblity.

And with that, I would have to agree. But this implies that Jesus is NOT equal to God in all aspects, and the supposed Holy Spirit (that third being that always seems to be left out, or at least to the very end, in such discussions!) would have to similarly be "unequal" to the other two. If this is the case, are we saying that we should be able to order the three, from "greater" to "lesser"?

 

[isaiah 1:18]

Originally posted by bmyers
Pun noted. We should probably now discuss whether willful punning is a mortal sin, or merely a venal one...

Nah... it's all good!

And with that, I would have to agree. But this implies that Jesus is NOT equal to God in all aspects, and the supposed Holy Spirit (that third being that always seems to be left out, or at least to the very end, in such discussions!) would have to similarly be "unequal" to the other two. If this is the case, are we saying that we should be able to order the three, from "greater" to "lesser"?

Yes, agreed. There is an order. Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti.(Father,Son,Holy Ghost). I don't know if I can say greater to lesser, just separate "roles" of the same being that have been given a name with the other two subjected to the will of "the father"(brains). But the accounts of Christ on Earth and the seeming separation inferred in some passages will return us to the paradox. But Christ on Earth is said to be fully God and fully man.

How to account for this comes a long dissertation about what it entails to be fully God and fully man. (Don't worry, after two or more paragraphs, I tend to lose my train of thought. So you'll be spared a long post.)

It centers around this passage: Colossians 2:9 For in him(Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[bmyers]

Originally posted by LightSon
with the frequency of these wave arguments, I'm going to have to tune you guys out, as they are over my head.

Y'know, I just caught this one...and to think I was going to complain about ISAIAH punning!

 

[isaiah 1:18]

Originally posted by bmyers
Y'know, I just caught this one...and to think I was going to complain about ISAIAH punning!

:chuckle:

Yup, he started!

 

[ex_fundy]

Originally posted by bmyers Of the remaining major Western religions, the only one that Christianity could possibly have "borrowed from" in terms of philosophy, theology, etc., is the one that it DID "borrow from" - Judaism.

There are indeed some New Testament stories that seem to be rewrites of various Old Testament (Judaism) stories (e.g. the Jairus and his daughter story appears to be a rewrite of the Elisha OT story). But I was thinking more along the lines of influences of Greek philosophy during the early stages of christianity and various virgin birth and resurrection stories found in ancient Egyption religions. But sadly, I'm still sitting in a hotel (without my reference material) so I can't develop things more deeply at this time.

 

[ex_fundy]

Originally posted by isaiah 1:18 And what is interesting is that no where in scripture do God, Jesus, or the holy spirit demonstrate a will of their own which nullifies any sense of individual sentience among the three.

Then why does Jesus use phrases such as "not my will but yours be done" (making distinctions of what he may want to do and what God may want)? You will probably answer by claiming he was talking about his human nature will (which the god-part of Jesus doesn't have), but that seems a case of reading something into the bible that isn't there.

 

[ex_fundy]

Originally posted by isaiah 1:18
Well, let's look at the radio wave example.

Transmitter A: Frequency 100.00mhz @ 1000watts
Transmitter B: Frequency 100.00mhz @ 50 watts.

Isaiah, you've tapped into an area I can address. I'm currently collecting mutlifrequency tranmissions with a digital oscope at 20 mhz, and stipping out noise in the realm of your transmitter B example. Depending on what Transmitter A is sending, one can quite clearly determine the content of Transmitter B with appropriate equipment. It's a very fun project.

But this is really not a good example, because you would claim that no equipment can detect God (or gods whom are non-physical entities). So detectability is not an issue.

 

[isaiah 1:18]

Originally posted by ex_fundy
Then why does Jesus use phrases such as "not my will but yours be done" (making distinctions of what he may want to do and what God may want)? You will probably answer by claiming he was talking about his human nature will (which the god-part of Jesus doesn't have), but that seems a case of reading something into the bible that isn't there.

Awhhhh... that's not very nice to say that I'll probably answer one way or the other. :nono: (been down this road before with other Christians I take it.)

My answer to that is this: I haven't found a verse in the Gospels where he actually demonstrates his own will and then executes it as proof of his own will. Everything he does, as far as I've read, is that of the will of the Father.

 

[isaiah 1:18]

Originally posted by ex_fundy
But this is really not a good example, because you would claim that no equipment can detect God (or gods whom are non-physical entities). So detectability is not an issue.

The example was not used towards a proof of God but rather on the idea of omnipresence and two "things" of equal quality occupying the same space yet being distinct. Edit: As an impossibility. Therefore, not 3 Gods, but one with 3 distinct attributes which are given names.

 

[ex_fundy]

Originally posted by isaiah 1:18 (been down this road before with other Christians I take it.)

During 25 years in Christiandom I certainly have

My answer to that is this: I haven't found a verse in the Gospels where he actually demonstrates his own will and then executes it as proof of his own will. Everything he does, as far as I've read, is that of the will of the Father.

Some within ultra-calvinism would basically argue that those who are saved somehow have their will controlled so that they choose Christ. This of course doesn't mean that they are god, but merely that their wills are made to operate in synch with the will of God (like your claiming for Jesus).

While no verses in the bible say: "God's will is X, and Jesus will is Y, and Jesus did Y", there are also no verses that say that about certain other biblical characters. But you wouldn't claim divinity of them. The Bible actually says extremely little about what Jesus did or did not want to do during his 30+ years of life. But it does (I believe on several occasions) make reference to Jesus having a will apart from God the father.

 

[ex_fundy]

Originally posted by bmyers (you just had to get into this with an electrical engineer, didn't you? ).

Bmyers, I knew there was something about your thinking and logic that I enjoyed. While I'm not an actual EE, I sometimes play the role on TV (I mean in real life)

 

[isaiah 1:18]

Originally posted by ex_fundy
During 25 years in Christiandom I certainly have

I've done about twenty years in it. (sounds like a sentence doesn't it?) And I oft have to take a sabatical away from "these here mine brethren." There's a certain Je ne sais quoi about Christian culture that necessitates it.

Some within ultra-calvinism would basically argue that those who are saved somehow have their will controlled so that they choose Christ. This of course doesn't mean that they are god, but merely that their wills are made to operate in synch with the will of God (like your claiming for Jesus).

Yes, per se, yes.

While no verses in the bible say: "God's will is X, and Jesus will is Y, and Jesus did Y", there are also no verses that say that about certain other biblical characters. But you wouldn't claim divinity of them. The Bible actually says extremely little about what Jesus did or did not want to do during his 30+ years of life. But it does (I believe on several occasions) make reference to Jesus having a will apart from God the father.

Here is the rub: After each of these that allude to the idea that Jesus has a will, He ends with something along the lines of "nevertheless, not my will but Thy will be done." For one, He knows God's will implicitly (which no Christians do, only a very broad sense.) Two, whether voluntarily or by complusion, Jesus always reverts to God's will.

For instance, garden of Gethsemane.

Jesus's will: Let this cup pass from me.

God's will: Nope. Or it is assumed no since Jesus says, not my will but thine will be done. So we can say that, ultimately, their will is one will.

 

[bmyers]

Originally posted by isaiah 1:18
My answer to that is this: I haven't found a verse in the Gospels where he actually demonstrates his own will and then executes it as proof of his own will. Everything he does, as far as I've read, is that of the will of the Father.

I haven't found one like that either, but the one that has always seemed to be the most troubling in this respect is Jesus' dying words (according to Mark and Matthew) - "Why have you forsaken me?" - which at least appears to indicate not only disagreement with God's plans, but doubt.

 

[isaiah 1:18]

Originally posted by bmyers
I haven't found one like that either, but the one that has always seemed to be the most troubling in this respect is Jesus' dying words (according to Mark and Matthew) - "Why have you forsaken me?" - which at least appears to indicate not only disagreement with God's plans, but doubt.

There are a few ways to view this. I will give you my take.

First, the passage:

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


At some point on the Cross, Christ is to take on all the sins of the world. When this occurred, The Godhead may have left his body since Sin and righteousness cannot share a cohabition. The miraculous union between God and flesh may have been separated at this point. So forsaken can be read as "abandoned" or "left." What may have remained on the cross after this statement is just a perfect flesh sacrifice to God - a body that never sinned. And since it is said that God is spirit, perhaps just the body and soul of the man Jesus was left. And before his death, Jesus cries out, "it is finished."

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

By saying that, we see Jesus once again resigning to the will of the Father. The great plan of salvation which existed before the foundation of the world was completed. All the prophecies were fullfilled.

Matt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The faithful which were kept in "abraham's bosom" were released as now their faith was justified by the finished work of the cross. Hebrews 11 shows us some of the faithful that died in faith before Christ died in the cross and were most likely those who resurrected.

Of course it could be said that I'm just "explaining it all away" since there's no passage in the bible that implicitly deals with why Jesus said that on the cross. Psalms 22 starts with the same words and the rest of that psalm seems to be what is Jesus's sentiment and predicament but doesn't explain what is going on as far as the apparent separation.

 

[SOTK]

Excellent post, Isaiah! :thumb:

I agree with your take on Jesus' last remarks. Well done.

In Christ,


SOTK

 

[PureX]

Originally posted by isaiah 1:18 Here is the rub: After each of these that allude to the idea that Jesus has a will, He ends with something along the lines of "nevertheless, not my will but Thy will be done." For one, He knows God's will implicitly (which no Christians do, only a very broad sense.) Two, whether voluntarily or by complusion, Jesus always reverts to God's will.

For instance, garden of Gethsemane.

Jesus's will: Let this cup pass from me.

God's will: Nope. Or it is assumed no since Jesus says, not my will but thine will be done. So we can say that, ultimately, their will is one will.

Hmmm, I've said that same thing many times. That didn't mean I was God, or knew God's will. But then I'm not a Christian. Most Christians I have come across do seem quite sure they know God's will .... for everyone. *smile*

 

[Heino]

Thank you all...

Thank you all...

I am working at full steam at my job now, trying to meet a deadline and training new people on the use of our new equipment. I will not have much time to do web surfing for a while.

I just wanted to thank everyone for interesting conversation.
Good bye and Auf Wiedersehen for now!

 

[PureX]

Re: Thank you all...

Re: Thank you all...

Originally posted by Heino I just wanted to thank everyone for interesting conversation.
Good bye and Auf Wiedersehen for now!

Thank YOU.

Peace.