Theology Club: Blinding of Israel

glorydaz

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Where does it say Israel was to be the spokes nation to the Gentiles?
Lots of places in the OT, but I like this one. Zech. 8:23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
 

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Where does it say Israel was to be the spokes nation to the Gentiles?
Here is a prophecy that relates:
Zech 8:23 (KJV)
(8:23) Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days [it shall come to pass], that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] God [is] with you.
 

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That prophesy tells how Gentiles recognize that the true Most High God is the God of Israel.
Not because Israel told them so, but because God demonstrated it.
I never said it was "because Israel told them so". But they (the ten mentioned) were following the Jew to learn about God.

"saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] God [is] with you."

Did they hear wrong (i.e., that God was with them [the Jews])?
 

Tambora

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Members of the Body cannot be cut off from Him. That passage isn't about the Body.
It is Paul talking to Gentiles!
He is telling the Gentiles he's talking to that they too will be cut off if they switch from believing to unbelieving just as the Israelites are cut off for switching from believing to unbelieving.
Paul repeatedly tells believers to have enduring belief and to never stop running the race (of belief).
Because without that belief you have no hope.
 

Tambora

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I never said it was "because Israel told them so". But they (the ten mentioned) were following the Jew to learn about God.

"saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] God [is] with you."

Did they hear wrong (i.e., that God was with them [the Jews])?
I propose that they have heard of or saw the mighty deeds YHWH (the God of Israel) has done and they have decided to choose the winning God.

Rahab did the same when the spies came.
"Hey guys, I've heard of the might deeds your god YHWH has done, and I believe I'll choose that one as well!"

Joshua 2:9-11 ESV
(9) and said to the men, “I know that the LORD has given you the land, and that the fear of you has fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land melt away before you.
(10) For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you devoted to destruction.
(11) And as soon as we heard it, our hearts melted, and there was no spirit left in any man because of you, for the LORD your God, he is God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath.
 

Arial

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Lots of places in the OT, but I like this one. Zech. 8:23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: You folks read a lot into scripture that isn't even remotely there. Do you have a playbook you consult? Because all I get are the same scriptures over and over.
 

Tambora

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Because we were saved under a different Gospel.
We are saved by the same gospel Abraham had ---- believing faith without works.
Just as Paul tells us.
Surely you don't think that could only apply to people 2000 years later when Paul lived.

Paul also tells us the law that came afterwards (after Abe was justified by believing faith without works) could not annul believing faith without works.
Could not annul for Abe, or Isaac, or Jacob, or the 12 tribes, or anyone.
 

JudgeRightly

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Where does it say Israel was to be the spokes nation to the Gentiles?

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: You folks read a lot into scripture that isn't even remotely there. Do you have a playbook you consult? Because all I get are the same scriptures over and over.

Here's another:

I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” - Genesis 12:2-3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis12:2-3&version=NKJV

And another:

In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” - Genesis 22:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis22:18&version=NKJV

And another:
“As for Me,” says the Lord, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the Lord , “from this time and forevermore.” - Isaiah 59:21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah59:21&version=NKJV
The Gentiles shall come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising. - Isaiah 60:3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah60:3&version=NKJV

Need I go on?
 

glorydaz

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That prophesy tells how Gentiles recognize that the true Most High God is the God of Israel.
Not because Israel told them so, but because God demonstrated it.
The Apostles were certainly telling them. That is when the kingdom preaching started. It's also when the gentiles were hearing.
We are saved by the same gospel Abraham had ---- believing faith without works.
Just as Paul tells us.
Surely you don't think that could only apply to people 2000 years later when Paul lived.

Paul also tells us the law that came afterwards (after Abe was justified by believing faith without works) could not annul believing faith without works.
Could not annul for Abe, or Isaac, or Jacob, or the 12 tribes, or anyone.
Abraham did not have faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

The fact that Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness did not stop Him from being required to perform works. Nor did it mean he wouldn't be required to wait until the times of refreshing to have his sins blotted out.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Acts. 3:
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: You folks read a lot into scripture that isn't even remotely there. Do you have a playbook you consult? Because all I get are the same scriptures over and over.
Yep, our playbook is the Bible. Please try it. It's so much better than your imagination.
 

Tambora

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Yep, our playbook is the Bible.
There ya go!
I wish everyone would approach the Bible without any baggage of MADism, Calvinism, universalism, etc.
Because once you get saddled with one of them then you start trying to force scripture to comply to the ism.
 

Tambora

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The Apostles were certainly telling them. That is when the kingdom preaching started. It's also when the gentiles were hearing.

Abraham did not have faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

The fact that Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness did not stop Him from being required to perform works. Nor did it mean he wouldn't be required to wait until the times of refreshing to have his sins blotted out.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Acts. 3:
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
None of the works he did or didn't do afterward could annul him being justified by believing faith alone.

Romans chapter 4 gives a lot of detail about it.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
There ya go!
I wish everyone would approach the Bible without any baggage of MADism, Calvinism, universalism, etc.
Because once you get saddled with one of them then you start trying to force scripture to comply to the ism.
If we don't know how to rightly divide the word of God, we end up with a jumbled mess that makes no sense whatsoever.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
None of the works he did or didn't do afterward could annul him being justified by believing faith alone.

Romans chapter 4 gives a lot of detail about it.
So then if Abraham turned from God to worship idols, he'd still be fine?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
We are saved by the same gospel Abraham had ---- believing faith without works.
Just as Paul tells us.
Surely you don't think that could only apply to people 2000 years later when Paul lived.

Paul also tells us the law that came afterwards (after Abe was justified by believing faith without works) could not annul believing faith without works.
Could not annul for Abe, or Isaac, or Jacob, or the 12 tribes, or anyone.
When I read that portion of scripture it looks like Paul is speaking of the covenants and promises.

Galatians 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
 

musterion

Well-known member
We are saved by the same gospel Abraham had ---- believing faith without works.
Just as Paul tells us.
Now you're lying or ignorant.

The saved today are saved by the same MEANS as Abraham was, on God's end, but not the same CONTENT on our end. If you don't know the difference between the two, you have no business hear preaching at others.
 
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