Bob said "Music is neutral"; Do you agree?
- Thread starter Nimrod
- Start date
- Status
Nimrod
Member
I want to get back to your statement you made previously.
I am going to paraphrase from "Measuring the Music" by John Makujina.
philosophizer are you saying that human consciousness is the ultimate criterion for judging music?
It seems you are measuring music by what is in man himself, who assigns it value based on its ability to give enjoyment.
Human autonomy--that is, the undeerstanding that the human moral consciousness is the final arbiter or poin of reference in matters such as aesthetics, ethics, religion, and philosophy.
We, however, must never look within man or some principle in the universe to determine right and wrong iin any matter. Rather, we must go outside of self to a transcendent God who regulates all aspects of our lives, including the exercise of our intellect, emotions, and will in all cultural spheres, even aesthetics. Our ultimate point of reference must never exist within the fluctuations of self, society, or even the universe, but in God and his inscripturated revelation.
aesthetics adj. sensitive to art and beauty.
What are your thoughts on this?
I am going to paraphrase from "Measuring the Music" by John Makujina.
philosophizer are you saying that human consciousness is the ultimate criterion for judging music?
It seems you are measuring music by what is in man himself, who assigns it value based on its ability to give enjoyment.
Human autonomy--that is, the undeerstanding that the human moral consciousness is the final arbiter or poin of reference in matters such as aesthetics, ethics, religion, and philosophy.
We, however, must never look within man or some principle in the universe to determine right and wrong iin any matter. Rather, we must go outside of self to a transcendent God who regulates all aspects of our lives, including the exercise of our intellect, emotions, and will in all cultural spheres, even aesthetics. Our ultimate point of reference must never exist within the fluctuations of self, society, or even the universe, but in God and his inscripturated revelation.
aesthetics adj. sensitive to art and beauty.
What are your thoughts on this?
philosophizer
New member
If someone flips you off behind your back, the direction of the message was toward you but you were not the intended receiver. The bad message was present, but directed more internally. Even if you are not hurt by it, the sender of the message inevitably hurts himself. But this has nothing to do with what we've been discussing. What is your unseen finger analogous to?
Okay, so this is the connection? Do you have any evidence of this? Have any studies been conducted to show this? Like if you put one deaf person in a room with loud rock music and another in a room with loud classical music? If you're gonna claim this I hope you have something to back it up.
And about your middle finger analogy-- can you "feel" or "see" a middle finger gestured at you behind your back in the same way a deaf person can "feel" or "hear" music?
I wouldn't doubt that some of them did understand English. Learning English has been quite important in Japan's education system for quite a while. And even if they didn't, their reaction to The Beatles was more out of the societal influence of pop culture. Once again, the context offers a better explanation.
What does that mean? Did I miss something?
philosophizer
New member
You seem to be giving music the quality of a natural force. In a manner of speaking it is. It is sound. These are basically shockwaves travelling through the air. You pointed out that deaf people can "feel" music. I would disagree here. Deaf people can feel sound, not music. Music is partly an interpretation of sound. It is initially organized by the performers and then interpreted by the listeners. The experience of listening to music is more cognitive than simply "feeling" a force.
I can feel gravity. I can feel inertia. I can feel heat. Yet none of these forces actually communicate anything to me. They have no messages contained within themselves. I can feel sound also, but sound alone does not have a message.
Music can carry messages in the form of emotions. You and I both agree on that. Some chords and scales do instill certain feelings in people when used certain ways. I will not go as far as saying that these effects are wholly universal. There may be exceptions to this, but many of these effects seem prevelant in most people. But where we disagree is that emotions themselves are the final step in determining moral direction. I assert they are not. I believe that emotions can be used for good or can be perverted toward evil. The taking of either direction is a choice made from many influences and experiences and interpretations.
You seem to have confused the cognitive construct of music with the natural force of sound.
philosophizer
New member
What are God's thoughts on this? If I saw it say anywhere, "thou shalt not listen to rock music," I would stop. God is also more concerned with the message and context than the music itself. He wants our music to praise Him. He doesn't say what kind of music. I seriously doubt music stayed the same all the way through bible times.
Who told you that some types of music are bad? Did you discover it yourself? Did God tell you? Did another human being give you the idea?
Absolutely, God is the source of Truth and morality. But I think you're taking a leap into what you think God says without actually hearing Him say it. If I'm wrong, just give me some scriptures that show your point.
philosophizer
New member
Nimrod, I'd like to ask you a question. I see that your avatar is the eye of Sauron from "Lord of the Rings." What was your impression on the musical score to the movies composed by Howard Shore? Did you like it? Was it good or evil? Were there parts that were good and other parts that were evil? Or was its meaning really relative to the message of the story that it accompanied?
I just thought maybe our discussion would be better directed if we had a specific example to discuss. If you have a different suggestion just let us know.
I just thought maybe our discussion would be better directed if we had a specific example to discuss. If you have a different suggestion just let us know.
Nimrod
Member
I do, but not at the moment. There are scientists that believe that. Look at Bethoven, he made his last symphony being deaf.
How about Heavy metal or any Rock n Roll concert. The music is LOUD. Why? Because they know that is how to get the audience moving.
An earthquake runs at 7hertz. We can't hear that but we sure can feel it.
Nimrod
Member
With that type of thinking, I could never convert a JW into believing in the trinity. This topic isn't milk. Its nothing but meat for the Christian, if he is willing to have it.
I agree there are bigger fish to fry.
Again, in the 500 references to music in the Scriptures we can get a good idea on what is "Acceptable unto the LORD"
Authors, musicians, people with degrees in the study of music, composers,.... and back up by the Word.
I like to look at another way.
Eph 5:10 "Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. "
We must prove first that this style of music is acceptable for the LORD. When we look at Rock n Roll, we can look at the performers, writiers, composers, and see how godly they are and how it affects their life.
I'll give more in the future. real busy right now.
philosophizer
New member
Beethoven was able to write music despite being deaf because he had such an ingenious understanding of music, developed through years of experience. It's like when someone says they can do something "with their eyes closed." It just means that they have done it so much that it's second-nature to them.
Yeah, Rock music is usually played loud. So?
A dog whistle blows at about 30 kHz. We can't hear that AND we can't feel it either.
Still, the sound of an earthquake and the sound of a dog whistle are just sounds, not music. We can feel some sounds, but we can't "feel" music.
philosophizer
New member
Originally posted by Nimrod
I can't see my avatar.
I really don't remember the music score in the movie, so I can't give an honest answer.
We can talk about Rock n Roll and why it is not for the Christian.
Do you have images turned off in your browser? How did you pick your avatar if you couldn't see it?
Anyway, the score from Lord of the Rings had to employ many different moods to portray the many different characters, scenes, and settings. I was just wondering what you thought of the music that accompanied the Black Riders or Saruman. This music projected a very dark mood that suited these characters. I wondered if this dark, moody music might fit your description of evil. I guess I'd like to know what you would call "evil music." Do you have any examples?
And if you want to talk about Rock n Roll, that'd be fine. You state that it is not for the Christian. Why specifically do you think this?
Nimrod
Member
Job 30:31 "My harp also is turned to mourning, and my organ into the voice of them that weep"
Moody music is not neccessarily evil or immoral.
Good questions to ask yourself is how the music affects your body. Does it make you want to march like a soldier? And we need Christian soldiers. OR does it make you body move in an uncontrollable way? Kind of this this guy.--> :bannana:
I'm Real busy right now, I'll try my best to get something before the end of the week.
philosophizer
New member
Take your time. I'm not in any rush.
Don't you mean this guy?--> :devil:
Do you think the music itself has the power to overcome your will and make you "move in an uncontrollable way"? Sort of like hypnosis or something?
If a demon is influencing a person to sin, is the person responsible for the sin or is the demon? The sin was, after all, the demon's suggestion. Could the person argue that they are blameless? The answer is no.
Whatever forces influence us, we are ultimately responsible for how we respond to them. But also realize that multiple forces can be acting at once. It isn't necessarily the obvious ones that are the determiners.
You are suggesting that losing control of your body is a bad thing. I would agree with you. But I do not accept the idea that certain kinds of music can gain control of my body against my will. That is a power that music does not have. Not even a demon can do that. If evil takes control of us, it is because we allowed it.
Is this why you think Rock and Roll music is bad? Because it can take control of people's bodies and cause them to move uncontrollably? I can tell you that I listen to Rock, but yet I do not like dancing. Am I a contradiction to your theory? Even if I did like to dance, I would not let myself "lose control" of my body. It seems to me that your assertion removes responsibility from people and discards the blame on music. Am I right?
philosophizer
New member
Here's an interesting thought to reverse things a little.
You claim that Rock music feeds the flesh and invokes uncontrolled or worldly actions. So you are also claiming that hymns or whatever you deem as "good" music feeds the spirit and naturally invokes a condition of praising God. Am I right?
Okay, is there any proof that the music of classic hymns causes provocation to praise God?
This might be an interesting study. Instead of studying the effects of Rock music ad nauseum, someone could pluck a person off a remote corner of the globe that has never heard Christian hymns before, subject them to the hymns, and then observe if the person begins to praise God.
You claim that Rock music feeds the flesh and invokes uncontrolled or worldly actions. So you are also claiming that hymns or whatever you deem as "good" music feeds the spirit and naturally invokes a condition of praising God. Am I right?
Okay, is there any proof that the music of classic hymns causes provocation to praise God?
This might be an interesting study. Instead of studying the effects of Rock music ad nauseum, someone could pluck a person off a remote corner of the globe that has never heard Christian hymns before, subject them to the hymns, and then observe if the person begins to praise God.
"I like to look at another way.
Eph 5:10 "Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. "
We must prove first that this style of music is acceptable for the LORD. When we look at Rock n Roll, we can look at the performers, writiers, composers, and see how godly they are and how it affects their life."
When we look at preachers we see that they are largely adulturers, con men, back biters, etc. During large pastor conferences, huge spikes are recorded in the rental of pornagraphic movies. So is preaching acceptable unto the Lord?
Eph 5:10 "Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. "
We must prove first that this style of music is acceptable for the LORD. When we look at Rock n Roll, we can look at the performers, writiers, composers, and see how godly they are and how it affects their life."
When we look at preachers we see that they are largely adulturers, con men, back biters, etc. During large pastor conferences, huge spikes are recorded in the rental of pornagraphic movies. So is preaching acceptable unto the Lord?
philosophizer
New member
Exactly.
OMEGA
New member
DECIBELS
DECIBELS
The only thing that can hurt you is the Decibel Level
which can damage your eardrum.
The best music is Brahms and Handel which can cause
the Brain to have more Beta Waves and thus become
Super Learning Music .
RAP Music is Just Vulgar Egotistical Verbiage that shows
the Low Morals of alot of People who sing it.
:jump:
DECIBELS
The only thing that can hurt you is the Decibel Level
which can damage your eardrum.
The best music is Brahms and Handel which can cause
the Brain to have more Beta Waves and thus become
Super Learning Music .
RAP Music is Just Vulgar Egotistical Verbiage that shows
the Low Morals of alot of People who sing it.
:jump:
- Status