Bob said "Music is neutral"; Do you agree?

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by spackle
So we're agreed. It has nothing to do with the instrument or music. If the focus is put on the performer and not on God, that is a completely seperate problem.

A single note by itself is not moral, but when notes are put together in such a way where the focus is put on the performer.

Originally posted by spackle
Funny how you state that you are not the standard and then turn around and project your own musical opinion on God. You say that the standard is God's word. Great. Please show me where in scripture it says that any kind of music is morally wrong.

I believe in good vs. bad art, but that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking right vs. wrong, a morality question. Please try not to confuse the two.

Music is art, and there is right and wrong. We are to put away the flesh and live in the spirit. We are not to follow the "world's" way (Secular rock n roll)

Originally posted by spackle
Then don't. I don't care. You worship the Lord in the style of your choosing. But don't come down on others who are trying to express their love for God in a different musical style.

I am trying to correct your way of thinking of music, and conform to godly standards. If I come accross as "putting you down", that is expected.

Originally posted by spackle
Well, now I am confused. How can you be a guitarist with a nice set of gear, have played in a rock band, and be arguing against rock music,

At first I heard about this issue about a year ago. I bought the books by authors like Frank Garlock (sp?), David Cloud (look at his web site!), and Tim Fisher. When I started reading, I stopped, becuase I didn't like what I was reading. It made logical sense, but it was telling me to get rid of something I enjoyed so much. After a couple of months I went back and tried to finish reading all the books. I did finish, and I had to decide what to do next. Make a long story short, I sold all of my CD's, about 200 of them. And I started to listen to either classical or hymns.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Nimrod
And I started to listen to either classical or hymns.

And what makes you think that the lives of the classical artists was not to glorify themselves, and that the notes they played were not corrupted by it?

 

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by Nimrod
So if they did in the past, then therefore it is good?
Is this your thinking?
Again, your not looking at God's Holy Word for an answer but history of man.

The point is, in biblical times (when God said He liked music) the instruments weren't necessarily "nice sounding" by today's standards. By ruling out today's music by what you think sounds nice, you also rule out just as much ancient music that God apparently liked.

So, you are admitting your biased towards Rock n Roll.

Are you admitting your bias against it?

So you are saying that any type of music is fine and dandy as long as the lyrics are right.

Yes.

A bunch of cans being dragged bahind a car is fine and acceptable as music to give praise towards God.

If it allows people to praise God, yes.

Now if you disagree that this is music, then the next question is What standard are you using to define music? Your own, or God's?

You seem to be against "rhythm" yet God says He likes it.

Solo's are fine, I am just saying that when the attention and praise is given to the performer. I see this a lot with "guitar solo's" and "drum solo's". But not with the "violen" and "organ".

Well, that's the fault of the musician, not the music. If the musician accepts all the praise for himself, he is an idolater and has made himself the idol. But that is not the music's fault.

And showing off your skills.

...which God gave him and he knows it.

The writer of the book is telling his readers how Christ changed his life. The muscian hasn't changed, he is still using secular music.

What if the musician also takes the time to tell his listeners how Christ changed his life?

Sure they do. These Christian's bands try to draw people in through their music. So they are trying to please the crowd.

It's not a problem that the music pleases the crowd if it also pleases God. First prove that God doesn't like it. And besides, enjoying music is completely acceptable as long as you know ultimately where those musical abilities come from. God likes music and he gave it to us for our enjoyment.

That's is right, the music gives a message, it is a way of communication.

Music carries a message, it is a medium of communication.

1 Cor 14:8 For also if a trumpet gives an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself for the battle?

The Scripture here gives an example of how music is communication.

A trumpet can be a signal used in battle. But that trumpet sound would mean absolutely nothing if you didn't already know it signals a military command. A charge or retreat are not commands inherent in the sound of a trumpet. They are things we ascribe to the trumpet in the context of battle. We chose their meaning.

 

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by philosophizer
Nimrod,

Could you name a song or musical selection that you would call "good" and then give your reasons why it is good? This might clarify what the criteria are.

Hi philosophizer, sorry about not spending more time with you on this subject. That is the problem with message boards. It feels like every message I put out, I get 5 coming back.

When you listen to music, what does you body want to do?
Do you tap your toes to the rhythm? Or do you do more with you body, like bending your knees? There comes a point when the listener is living "in the flesh". THat is what the "back beat" of rock music does. It puts the accent on the 2 and 4. For example "Saw here standing there" by the Beatles. The music feeds your flesh. Christians should listen to music that feeds the spirit.

Now with music that put the accent or beat on the 1, for the most part is good. Also make sure that melody is the main driving force of the song. Unlike Rock n Roll where the beat/rhythm is about 85% of the song. Other factors are, songs that come to a complete end, for example the "pop goes the weasel". Lets say you write that song but end it 5 notes before. That would be an example of a song NOT coming to a complete end.

Have you downloaded Frank Garlock message on the web yet?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Nimrod
Christians should listen to music that feeds the spirit.

Since you ignored my other question, then perhaps you could tell me how one would "feed the spirit" with music?

 

[spackle]

Originally posted by Nimrod
A single note by itself is not moral, but when notes are put together in such a way where the focus is put on the performer.

I have NO IDEA how this could be possible. Now you're not even talking about instruments, but note combination? I promise you that classical composers found more bizarre note/chord combinations than any rock star.

Originally posted by Nimrod
Music is art, and there is right and wrong. We are to put away the flesh and live in the spirit. We are not to follow the "world's" way (Secular rock n roll)

Whaa? Your statements have nothing to do with each other.

Originally posted by Nimrod
At first I heard about this issue about a year ago. I bought the books by authors like Frank Garlock (sp?), David Cloud (look at his web site!), and Tim Fisher. When I started reading, I stopped, becuase I didn't like what I was reading. It made logical sense, but it was telling me to get rid of something I enjoyed so much. After a couple of months I went back and tried to finish reading all the books. I did finish, and I had to decide what to do next. Make a long story short, I sold all of my CD's, about 200 of them. And I started to listen to either classical or hymns.

Super. If you're looking to unload all of that great gear, I'd be happy to take it off of your hands. For free of course, because no one should profit from the evils of rock n roll.

I'd be interested to talk with you in a couple of years when you're kicking yourself for getting rid of all of your albums. I know several christians who have had that experience. Just give it some time.......

 

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by Nimrod
Hi philosophizer, sorry about not spending more time with you on this subject. That is the problem with message boards. It feels like every message I put out, I get 5 coming back.

When you listen to music, what does you body want to do?
Do you tap your toes to the rhythm? Or do you do more with you body, like bending your knees?

Yes, I sometimes do those things. That means I am enjoying the music. Does my body automatically do those things against my will? No.

There comes a point when the listener is living "in the flesh". THat is what the "back beat" of rock music does. It puts the accent on the 2 and 4. For example "Saw here standing there" by the Beatles. The music feeds your flesh.

My "body" sometimes does things while I listen to classical music too. I sometimes like to conduct with my hands along with the music. Does this mean that classical music also "feeds the flesh"? Does classical music sometimes make you smile? Would that also be considered feeding the flesh?

I don't recall how that Beatles song goes off the top of my head. I'll try to find it and take a listen.

Christians should listen to music that feeds the spirit.

What happens while music is feeding the Spirit? How could you tell the difference between someone who's spirit is being fed and someone who is completely unmoved?

Now with music that put the accent or beat on the 1, for the most part is good. Also make sure that melody is the main driving force of the song. Unlike Rock n Roll where the beat/rhythm is about 85% of the song. Other factors are, songs that come to a complete end, for example the "pop goes the weasel". Lets say you write that song but end it 5 notes before. That would be an example of a song NOT coming to a complete end.

The Beat: It's not exclusive to Rock.
Saying that rock is mostly beat/rhythm is an overstatement. There are many rock songs that are very melodic. There are many rock songs that don't even have drums.

Melody: It's not exlusive to Classical
Most people would not be able to identify a rock song by the drumbeat alone. People mostly identify rock songs by the melody, just like any other genre.

Unresolved Endings: Also not exclusive to any genre
But I get the impression you know that, and I'm glad you're not being inconsistant in that. But how are unresolved endings bad?

Have you downloaded Frank Garlock message on the web yet?

No and I probably won't. I can't listen to it at work and my home connection is FAR too slow to try downloading it. If it is typed out anywhere I would be happy to read it.

 

[Shaun]

You want Biblical backing? Okay, you asked for it:

2 Samuel 6:5
Then David and all the house of Israel played music before the LORD on all kinds of instruments of fir wood, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on sistrums, and on cymbals.

1 Chronicles 13:8
Then David and all Israel played music before God with all their might, with singing, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on cymbals, and with trumpets.

1 Chronicles 15:16
Then David spoke to the leaders of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers accompanied by instruments of music, stringed instruments, harps, and cymbals, by raising the voice with resounding joy.

1 Chronicles 15:19
the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were to sound the cymbals of bronze;

1 Chronicles 15:28
Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the LORD with shouting and with the sound of the horn, with trumpets and with cymbals, making music with stringed instruments and harps.

1 Chronicles 16:5
Asaph the chief, and next to him Zechariah, then Jeiel, Shemiramoth, Jehiel, Mattithiah, Eliab, Benaiah, and Obed-Edom: Jeiel with stringed instruments and harps, but Asaph made music with cymbals;

1 Chronicles 16:42
and with them Heman and Jeduthun, to sound aloud with trumpets and cymbals and the musical instruments of God. Now the sons of Jeduthun were gatekeepers.

1 Chronicles 25:1
Moreover David and the captains of the army separated for the service some of the sons of Asaph, of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, stringed instruments, and cymbals. And the number of the skilled men performing their service was:

1 Chronicles 25:6
All these were under the direction of their father for the music in the house of the LORD, with cymbals, stringed instruments, and harps, for the service of the house of God. Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman were under the authority of the king.

2 Chronicles 5:12
and the Levites who were the singers, all those of Asaph and Heman and Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, stood at the east end of the altar, clothed in white linen, having cymbals, stringed instruments and harps, and with them one hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets--

2 Chronicles 5:13
indeed it came to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD, and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the LORD, saying: "For He is good, For His mercy endures forever," that the house, the house of the LORD, was filled with a cloud,

2 Chronicles 29:25
And he stationed the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with stringed instruments, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, of Gad the king's seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for thus was the commandment of the LORD by His prophets.

Ezra 3:10
When the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, the priests stood in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites, the sons of Asaph, with cymbals, to praise the LORD, according to the ordinance of David king of Israel.

Nehemiah 12:27
Now at the dedication of the wall of Jerusalem they sought out the Levites in all their places, to bring them to Jerusalem to celebrate the dedication with gladness, both with thanksgivings and singing, with cymbals and stringed instruments and harps.

Psalm 150:5
3Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; Praise Him with the lute and harp!
4Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!
5Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with clashing cymbals!

Okay, let's do an inventory:

Cymbals, sistrum, tambourines == drumset
Lute == guitar
Stringed Instruments == guitar, bass, mandolin, violin, etc
Trumpets == Trumpets (duh!)

By the way, that 2 Chronicles verse, with 120 servants on trumpet. That's not exactly quiet, you know. Nor are "loud and clashing cymbals." Actually, after the inventory, this praise looks most like a ska band. Wow!

So, you are admitting your biased towards Rock n Roll.

Actually, I started out as a classical violinist. If there's anything I'm biased to, it's symphonies and orchestrations. Man I love those.

So you are saying that any type of music is fine and dandy as long as the lyrics are right. A bunch of cans being dragged bahind a car is fine and acceptable as music to give praise towards God. Now if you disagree that this is music, then the next question is What standard are you using to define music? Your own, or God's?

Yes. I am. As long as it is praising the Lord. This is what music is:
1 Samuel 19:9
Now the distressing spirit from the LORD came upon Saul as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand. And David was playing music with his hand.
That means thumping on a desk is music to the Lord. Cans behind a car is music to the Lord. He created all things, all sounds, all music--it's good to Him!

Solo's are fine, I am just saying that when the attention and praise is given to the performer. I see this a lot with "guitar solo's" and "drum solo's". But not with the "violen" and "organ".

Wait a minute: Have you ever seen a violin solo? Really? Whenever there is an orchestra, the violin solo is the most focused-on part simply because the top violin player is called the "concertmaster." If that doesn't give glory to the one person, what does? People will immediately look for the solo violinist and watch him play.

Whether one instrument or many, if it's giving praise to the Lord, that's what it is for.

And showing off your skills.

That are God-given and God-breathed. If it weren't for Him, I wouldn't have these skills.

Does a preacher "show off his skills" when he prepares a fancy sermon? Does a monk "show off his skills" when he keeps his vow to never marry? Does a missionary "show off his skills" when he finally gives up all he or she has to go far off and preach the Gospel?

NO. These are learned, practiced disciplines, that hinge on the grace of God continuing to provide for them.

The writer of the book is telling his readers how Christ changed his life. The muscian hasn't changed, he is still using secular music.

Silly. Music was defined by God, made by God, and changed by God. The style may change, but the substance stays the same. There is no such thing as "secular music," in the sense you put it in. Is jazz secular? Is blues? Is the Fender strat a secular instrument? Not really. They're all made by the minds and materials provided by God. Music has changed my life--and for the glory of God. Am I wrong here?

Sure they do. These Christian's bands try to draw people in through their music. So they are trying to please the crowd.

The same way a preacher draws people in by his sermon? (And don't give me that bull about how a preacher is talking about God--so is the music!) The Christian musicians use music as a medium to spread and share the Gospel. So it happens to appeal to the younger generation--GREAT! That's a great medium we can use to teach the younger, unchurched generation about God.

I am trying to correct your way of thinking of music, and conform to godly standards. If I come accross as "putting you down", that is expected.

Did you know Spiritual songs as played by African-American churches (i'm not racial profiling, just stating history) were actually derived not from Southern churches in the 1800s--go back further. They were derived from paganistic practices with djimbe's and sacrifices in Africa.

Does that make all African-American music evil? What about the organ and piano compositions made by agnostics and atheists in the Dark Ages? What about the Roman style of playing that later evolved into the church?

Now with music that put the accent or beat on the 1, for the most part is good. Also make sure that melody is the main driving force of the song. Unlike Rock n Roll where the beat/rhythm is about 85% of the song. Other factors are, songs that come to a complete end, for example the "pop goes the weasel". Lets say you write that song but end it 5 notes before. That would be an example of a song NOT coming to a complete end.

So now rythym in general is of the devil?

I think you just proved your idiocy here. All music was created to glorify God--not just the ones that produce distinct tones on a scale. Do you know drums have to be tuned to stay in melodic quality with the other instruments?

Do you know how many classical songs use rythym and percussion in their music? TONS.

I'd be careful, you don't want to become her:
1 Chronicles 15:29
And it happened, as the ark of the covenant of the LORD came to the City of David, that Michal, Saul's daughter, looked through a window and saw King David whirling and playing music; and she despised him in her heart.

Have you ever really studied music, or are you just parroting off of something you heard that eased your itching ears?

 

[philosophizer]

Singing:
Ephesians 5:19 -- Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord

Dancing:
2 Samuel 6:14 -- David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might
Ecclesiastes 3:4 -- a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance
Jeremiah 31:4 -- I will build you up again
and you will be rebuilt, O Virgin Israel.
Again you will take up your tambourines
and go out to dance with the joyful.

Music:
2 Samuel 6:5 -- David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD , with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals.

 

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by Sozo
And what makes you think that the lives of the classical artists was not to glorify themselves, and that the notes they played were not corrupted by it?

That I don't know, but we do know that Rock started out to be "rebellion". From Elvis on to today.

 

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by Nimrod
That I don't know, but we do know that Rock started out to be "rebellion". From Elvis on to today.

America started out to be a "rebellion" too.

The Isrealites exodus from Egypt was a rebellion against Pharaoh.

How right or wrong a rebellion is depends on how right or wrong the existing status quo is.

 

[Shaun]

Originally posted by Nimrod
That I don't know, but we do know that Rock started out to be "rebellion". From Elvis on to today.

So did Christianity. From Christ to today.

 

[spackle]

If I recall, the very first act of human rebellion involved fruit.
Has fruit been evil since then?

 

[Nimrod]

Hi philo! I just lost my job, so it might be a while before I can get back to you. Then again I have all this extra time to research.

Hope to be back soon.

 

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by Nimrod
Hi philo! I just lost my job, so it might be a while before I can get back to you. Then again I have all this extra time to research.

Hope to be back soon.

Oh my. Sorry to hear that, Nimrod. I hope you can find something else soon. Good luck and best wishes.

 

[Behira]

Music to me is not neutral. Do you know that the Hebrew texts have notations in them and they are directions for music to accompany the psalm.

Have you read the scriptures where YHVH tells us not to study the ways of the pagans to do what the do? Halloween is just one example of Christians thinking if they just change the name and the theme of the set apart holy day of the evil one they've done good; when clearly the Feasts of the LORD were designed with keeping us from the ways of the pagans.

Did you know that in the '50's the Premeire of the Soviet Union, Niktak Kruchov told America from the UN how they would bring down the U.S without firing a shot? One of the way to increase rebellion in youth through culture; a piece of culture is music. In the 50's what were the teen pop music. Rock n Roll. One way of backslidding is to allow youth to define culture; see how it gets slowly worse and worse.

Did you mother's not sing to you "Oh becareful little ears what you hear?"

Christian Wrap!!! Please excuse me but I think we study the ways of the pagans again to do what they do. Wrap is an inmmediate reminder where it came from it's roots are gangs. That's the picture that it sends, the sound that comes forth and it demonstrates through it's language that indeed youth lack communication skills. It's at best like wanting to eat those watermelons we left behing in Eqypt.

It says you can look and sound like the world and be a Christian too. That is not what Holiness is; holiness is being set apart in everything; dress, speach, music; literature; to be a distinctive people to Him and to others. Holiness does not chase current trends.

Is the inside of the cup more important to clean? Yes absolutely; but that does not mean that outward appearance was/is not important as well.

You cannot walk down the street and see a Christian; they look like everyone else.