California Baptist University debate team refuses to defend abortion!
Wednesday February 4th, 2004. This is show #25.
Wednesday February 4th, 2004. This is show #25.
California Baptist University debate team refuses to defend abortion!
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Zakath
Resident Atheist
So let me get this straight...
A college-level debate team goes to a competition and refuses to debate the negative of a popular debate topic.
If that's the scenario, then it sounds like they couldn't or weren't prepared to defend the position they were assigned and were just afraid of losing. Then they'd really be laughing stocks. If that was the case, I think they did the wise thing by defaulting and making a claim moral conflict...
Perhaps they should be careful to only compete in carefully scripted debates with other Christians kids now since they have lost their credibility in secular debating arena.
(edited for typo - Z)
A college-level debate team goes to a competition and refuses to debate the negative of a popular debate topic.
If that's the scenario, then it sounds like they couldn't or weren't prepared to defend the position they were assigned and were just afraid of losing. Then they'd really be laughing stocks. If that was the case, I think they did the wise thing by defaulting and making a claim moral conflict...
Perhaps they should be careful to only compete in carefully scripted debates with other Christians kids now since they have lost their credibility in secular debating arena.
(edited for typo - Z)
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As a creationist, I remember having to debate evolution over creationism in my college philosophy class. I even had to write pursuasive papers on such in the same class. Embarrassingly, my papers were so well written that the openly-atheist professor used my papers as an example to the entire class--without my permission of course. It still somewhat bugs me that my name is attached to that paper someplace.
I was proud of the excellent grade, but felt awful in the end because I did an excellent job arguing for something contradictory to a deeply held belief of mine for the entire class (and possibly others) to witness.
Although I understand the logic of some of the preceding arguments (like why one should be able to argue advocatus diaboli), it seems to me that a person of good character would have his limits playing this role given certain extreme, moral topics, especially those involving life and death, guilt and innocence.
My hat goes off to the California Baptist University debate team. If you get too many Christians publicly arguing against their own values, who knows? Christians might end up laying the foundation for gay marriage some day!
I was proud of the excellent grade, but felt awful in the end because I did an excellent job arguing for something contradictory to a deeply held belief of mine for the entire class (and possibly others) to witness.
Although I understand the logic of some of the preceding arguments (like why one should be able to argue advocatus diaboli), it seems to me that a person of good character would have his limits playing this role given certain extreme, moral topics, especially those involving life and death, guilt and innocence.
My hat goes off to the California Baptist University debate team. If you get too many Christians publicly arguing against their own values, who knows? Christians might end up laying the foundation for gay marriage some day!
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Zakath
Resident Atheist
It's a web forum. Of course I've done it before.
I'll argue the "Roman Catholic" position when there's a paucity of RCC's available just to keep the discussions going. :thumb:
Of course I do not believe in the RCC doctrine and dogma, but I did teach it to college students for several years as a youth group leader in my younger days...
I agree. Great post!
Originally posted by Zakath
I see your point, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.
If the "civil union" trend continues throughout the country, it's bound to happen. I actually find the MA supreme court's stare decisis argument involving the unconstitutionality of "separate but equal" laws compelling.
Zakath
Resident Atheist
The thing about trends is that they seldom continue to their extreme point (usually for reasons of physcial laws).
I recall listening to people 15 years ago telling us we'd have streets full millions of dying AIDS victims by the mid-1990's - if the trends continued.
Look around you... where are the millions of corpses?
I also recall people claiming that the race riots in the late 1960's were going to escalate into full scale civil war - if the trends continued.
Look around you... we don't have troops in the streets in most major cities because of race problems...
I remember listening to people proclaim that the US was going to perish in its own garbage by 1995 with massive outbreaks of cholera, typhoid, tuberculosis, plague, and other miscellaneous diseases because we were overloading our garbage dumps - if the trends continued.
Look around you... when was the last time you saw anyone dying of cholera, typhoid or plague in the U.S.?
Trends are useful study tools but caution must be used in extrapolating too far into the future...
How about trends that pertain to rights?
Generally, rights granted to people are very difficult to remove (I have no statistics to prove this, but it seems to be a reasonable assessment). Thus, I only see homosexuals gaining more rights, definitely not losing rights. Nor do I see the amount of rights they have today staying put since they are short of heterosexual rights.
Generally, rights granted to people are very difficult to remove (I have no statistics to prove this, but it seems to be a reasonable assessment). Thus, I only see homosexuals gaining more rights, definitely not losing rights. Nor do I see the amount of rights they have today staying put since they are short of heterosexual rights.
Doing vs saying
Doing vs saying
Bob sometimes admits that his views are extreme right-wing, and that most Christians do not share his extremist ideas. Probably for that reason many Christians, even though sharing a belief in the fundamental tenets of Christianity, might be cautious about being on his show where they might seem to also share in his more extreme views. It sounds as though the Baptist Debate group may have been in that category. But that doesn’t stop honest Bob from espousing his radical ideas in close association with more mainstream ideas his guests share, even if at the very time he does it he admits that he shouldn’t be doing it.
In the conversation with Bob, the team captain, Mary Pryfogle, came across as a very articulate and refreshing person without being offensive. During the conversation, starting at 26 minutes 55 seconds in the show, Mary lightly mentioned two views that are contrary to Bob’s stance – the outlawing of homosexuality and respect for those who might have already had an abortion. Bob couldn’t let the passing mention of the legality of homosexuality pass with challenging it.
Mary said:
Doing vs saying
Bob sometimes admits that his views are extreme right-wing, and that most Christians do not share his extremist ideas. Probably for that reason many Christians, even though sharing a belief in the fundamental tenets of Christianity, might be cautious about being on his show where they might seem to also share in his more extreme views. It sounds as though the Baptist Debate group may have been in that category. But that doesn’t stop honest Bob from espousing his radical ideas in close association with more mainstream ideas his guests share, even if at the very time he does it he admits that he shouldn’t be doing it.
In the conversation with Bob, the team captain, Mary Pryfogle, came across as a very articulate and refreshing person without being offensive. During the conversation, starting at 26 minutes 55 seconds in the show, Mary lightly mentioned two views that are contrary to Bob’s stance – the outlawing of homosexuality and respect for those who might have already had an abortion. Bob couldn’t let the passing mention of the legality of homosexuality pass with challenging it.
Mary said:
Bob responded with:
Now that Bob has made an extended and blatantly pointed statement about his view on the historical legality of homosexuality, he says:
Is this last statement Christian honesty? Rather like doing exactly what you want to do, and then saying that isn’t what you want to do.
Re: Doing vs saying
Re: Doing vs saying
Bob didn't bring up homosexuality. She did. Seems like Bob just wanted to quickly set the record straight on the proper way Christians should view homosexuality for her sake and the audience's, yet he didn't want to stray from the theme likely due to a lack of time (another important guest was on deck).
I'm quite sure that Bob would love for Mary to call on a latter day to sort out any differences they have on the air, don't you?
Re: Doing vs saying
Bob didn't bring up homosexuality. She did. Seems like Bob just wanted to quickly set the record straight on the proper way Christians should view homosexuality for her sake and the audience's, yet he didn't want to stray from the theme likely due to a lack of time (another important guest was on deck).
I'm quite sure that Bob would love for Mary to call on a latter day to sort out any differences they have on the air, don't you?
Zakath
Resident Atheist
My point still applies. Trends are still about connecting data points over time. Few societal trends are ever carried through to completion due to many sociological factores. If this wasn't the case, the human race would probably have killed itself off centuries ago.
I'd say that depends entirely on the circumstances. Are you familiar with a law called "The Patriot Act" that was enacted in 2002?
In the circumstances following 9-11, for instance, many rights to personal privacy and judicial protection were removed from the general population.
I don't see why, purely from a legal or logical point of view, they should have any different rights than heterosexuals. They should, in my opinion, have no less rights, and certainly no additional ones.
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