Theology Club: Calvinist MADs

musterion

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OT offers reasonable answers to a few questions I always asked, and raises others. So I think I "get it" to a very limited extent but remain ambivalent because I just don't feel that I need to know some things (and that ain't aimed just at OT, btw...not by a long shot...MAD has its share of distasteful Deep Things Prying, imo).
 

Sherman

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The study of it has answered quite a few questions I had. Though to don't think I fully understand it.
 

Lon

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MAD (as far as my 10 years of studying it go) does not in any sense require subscribing to the belief that God ever "changed His mind" with regard to how things played out from the Gospels, through Acts, through the epistles. I'll go as far as to submit that most MADs would raise at least one eyebrow at your suggestion.
I'm not sure where the connection between MAD and Open Theism comes in, other than the convergence here on TOL and Denver Bible. I think that conflates a bit of theology discussion on TOL because most people don't get MAD or other forms of Acts Dispensational theologies, nor Open Theism. Combining it all, and then adding Arminians and Catholics and Calvinists and the mayhem oft happens :)

Interesting thread Muster. Thanks.
 

Lighthouse

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MAD (as far as my 10 years of studying it go) does not in any sense require subscribing to the belief that God ever "changed His mind" with regard to how things played out from the Gospels, through Acts, through the epistles. I'll go as far as to submit that most MADs would raise at least one eyebrow at your suggestion.
Ironically Hilston actually conceded that God had, in fact, changed His mind at some points as recorded in the Bible. All because I laid out the scripture and the original Hebrew, etc.
 

musterion

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Ironically Hilston actually conceded that God had, in fact, changed His mind at some points as recorded in the Bible. All because I laid out the scripture and the original Hebrew, etc.

Yes, He did. I just don't see the need, which AMR implied, that MAD logically demands believing God changed His mind re: the revelation of the mystery, etc. I don't see a hint of that anywhere in Acts nor in Paul's letters.
 

musterion

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I'm not sure where the connection between MAD and Open Theism comes in, other than the convergence here on TOL and Denver Bible. I think that conflates a bit of theology discussion on TOL because most people don't get MAD or other forms of Acts Dispensational theologies, nor Open Theism. Combining it all, and then adding Arminians and Catholics and Calvinists and the mayhem oft happens :)

Interesting thread Muster. Thanks.

You're welcome and you're correct: there is no necessary, inescapable connection betwixt MAD (or any brand of disp'ism) and OT. If there is and I ain't seeing it, I welcome any attempt to convince me.
 

Hilston

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This is a combined response to various posts in this thread.

This is an article he wrote on the sovereignty of God in salvation. He was very wrapped up in Calvinism, so much so that he's demonstrably wrong in a couple areas of this piece, but I share it just to prove the point that Calvinist MADs do exist.

http://paulsgracemessage.blogspot.com/

yep, i see what you're saying -
Can either musterion or patrick jane point us to something in the article that convinces you that the author is a Calvinist?

Hilston resembles a lot Baptists out here in the Midwest ...
In my defense, no Baptist church would welcome my views, since I regard water baptism as a religious ritual that is forbidden for the Body of Christ. For the Body of Christ, there is one and only one baptism (Eph 4:5), namely, that of the Spirit without water. For Israel, there were many baptisms, i.e., ceremonial washings (Heb. 9:10).

I disagree completely with what he said here:

“In the mind of the Open Theist, if you're not an Open Theist, you're a Calvinist.”​

Thats false, i am MAD but I am not Open Theist and i've yet to be called a Calvinist by anyone here.
First, it’s called hyperbole. Second, consider what was said in the opening post, combined with the fact that, on the website that was referenced, the contributing authors have nothing good to say about Calvinism.

Ironically Hilston actually conceded that God had, in fact, changed His mind at some points as recorded in the Bible. All because I laid out the scripture and the original Hebrew, etc.
Now this I gotta see. Lighthouse, at the risk of engaging you in yet another inevitably inane dialogue (loosely defined), please post the link that proves your claim. Where have I ever conceded that God changes His mind in the way that Open Theists assert?

Thanks,
Hilston
 
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musterion

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Can either musterion or patrick jane point us to something in the article that convinces you that the author is a Calvinist?

Hello. My wife just informed me that she's booked a bed and breakfast for a second honeymoon this weekend (how's that for a surprise!) so my time is suddenly limited. If what I post below won't suffice, I'll deal with the article when I return.

First, there's this from here.

And then my ordaining pastor, Dr. Ernest R. Campbell, who had been Associate Pastor to Dr. Robert G. Lee, declared from the pulpit and in personal conversation that he was a supralapsarian hyper Calvinist. Even so, Dr. Lee thought so much of Dr. Campbell that he put it in his will for Dr. Campbell to preach his funeral.
This aligns with a pamphlet/booklet of Campbell's which I once owned, as well as with the second point below.

The booklet had to do with the sovereignty of God in salvation. I got rid of it while decluttering before I moved to N.C. but I recall the structure of it was similar but different from the article I tried to link to above. In that booklet, I recall Campbell was much more forthright in his views on election, making the article I linked seem muted in comparison. I will see if it's available online somewhere but Canyonview does not have any such pamphlets on their website, just the commentaries and a few full books.

Second, I have Campbell's Ephesians commentary open before me. On 2:8, he wrote (italics in original),

The use of the genitive case indicates that this gift [which Campbell identified as both grace and faith] is owned and possessed by God, i.e., it is that which exclusively belongs to God, which He sovereignly presents to whom He wills...no other person in the universe is able to give this gift, the essence of which is Jesus Christ.
I disagree with this as explained in the footnote. But if these points do not suffice to establish Campbell's Calvinistic bona fides, let me know.


*What is the gift of God in Ephesians 2:8-9? Three possibilities: grace, salvation, or saving faith. Whichever it is, Paul says it's God's gift and it's not of ourselves, that is, not out of our works. So whichever this gift is, it has to fit both criteria. Taking them one at a time:

GRACE: This is in a sense the gift of God that we all receive (in vain or not is another matter). Much of Christendom from the beginning has believed that God's grace is earned and/or maintained out of our works. That fits 2:9, so grace is a possibility for the gift.

SALVATION: Basically the same as the above; most of Christendom has said and does say that salvation is obtained and maintained out of our works. So salvation also fits 2:9.

SAVING FAITH: Nowhere in Paul's letters is saving faith ever said to be misunderstood as arising out of works, which would be required for it to fit Eph 2:9. Saving faith is said by many to come as God's gift, but no one says saving faith comes as the result of our works.

Conclusion: God's grace and His salvation in Christ both fit Paul's criteria for the gift, as both are misconstrued as involving works. Saving faith does not fit for the same reason.

 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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Someone recently wondered if they exist. They do, and the late Ernie Campbell was one of them. He's written some excellent commentaries (I was given the whole set) but his Calvinism really comes through in a lot of his interpretations. This is an article he wrote on the sovereignty of God in salvation. He was very wrapped up in Calvinism, so much so that he's demonstrably wrong in a couple areas of this piece, but I share it just to prove the point that Calvinist MADs do exist.

http://paulsgracemessage.blogspot.com/
I cannot seem to find the specific Campbell article related to sovereignty you mention at the link you have provided.

I did find this:
http://paulsgracemessage.blogspot.com/2013/10/true-bibleical-unity-by-ernest-r.html
http://paulsgracemessage.blogspot.com/2014/02/teaching-truth-by-pastor-e-r-campbell.html

Was your reference to one of these?

AMR
 

musterion

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I cannot seem to find the specific Campbell article related to sovereignty you mention at the link you have provided.

I did find this:
http://paulsgracemessage.blogspot.com/2013/10/true-bibleical-unity-by-ernest-r.html
http://paulsgracemessage.blogspot.com/2014/02/teaching-truth-by-pastor-e-r-campbell.html

Was your reference to one of these?

AMR

This one, sorry.

http://paulsgracemessage.blogspot.com/2015/04/gods-sovereignty-in-soteriology-by.html

From that article:

Salvation is received through the exercise of Divinely-given faith. Ephesians 4:8-9 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not out of you, it is the gift of God; not out of works, that no one might boast." The statement, "this is not out of you," refers to both the grace and the faith by which we are saved. The two ingredients essential for salvation, grace and faith, are a joint gift of God. God sovereignly gives faith to those whom He has chosen in Christ; as a gift it belongs to them, and the Holy Spirit enables them to exercise it in the Savior, Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:4, 15; Titus 3:5-6). If we ourselves generate the faith by which we think that we are saved, we are actually involved in a kind of grace/works salvation.
 

Danoh

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Thank you. A good article containing nothing I would quibble over.

AMR

Sure, if clouding up "the faith OF Christ" with a doctrine asserting select automatons in its failure to understand that election is about and unto service after, and not about, nor unto salvation, if that is nothing to quibble over, that is.

Was Christ elected unto salvation?

Isaiah 12:

1. Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Isaiah 52:

13. Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
14. As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15. So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

1 Peter 2:

6. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Israel:

We know that Jacob is Israel, and therefore that Israel is Jacob, thus, the one is a synonym for the other, and visa versa - as is often the case - a repetition is often repeated as a different phrase, that by that, the intended sense is twice asserted.

"For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me" Isaiah 45:4.

Romans 9:

4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Romans 11:

28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.
29. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I'll stop there that I might comment on all of it without turning this into one more of my long winded threads, lol

You'll note I appear to be deducing my conclusion from a premise that is actually a rule of thumb.

Said rule of thumb, it self is based on induction - or gathering information and examining it towards identifying a general rule of thumb towards a working premise I might deduce a conclusion from said information's recurrent patterns.

Induction - Examination - Rule of Thumb - Working Premise - Deduction - Conclusion - Assertion.

Campbell's departure in this much, appears to have been the result of - Induction - Examination - not towards a General Rule of Thumb - rather, straight to a Premise - he then Deduced - his Conclusion and its Assertion from.

His momentary departure [his particular Sovereignty conclusion] is where Mid-Acts People end up off when we do.

Ours is how Mid-Acts re-merged to begin with.

His momentary departure [his particular Sovereignty conclusion] is how everyone else out there arrives at practically their every conclusion, which is why they oppose us so, as well as, why the "not for us" tends to take forever, when it does achieve its desired intent.

And when it does have its desired effect, it turns out the person
partly stumbled into the above right process but may not necessarily be aware of it.

As is my desire, I am ever open to correction on all of the above as...

I LOVE THIS STUFF !!!
 

Lighthouse

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Now this I gotta see. Lighthouse, at the risk of engaging you in yet another inevitably inane dialogue (loosely defined), please post the link that proves your claim. Where have I ever conceded that God changes His mind in the way that Open Theists assert?
Is it ironic, or just a coincedence that my post in which I responded to this explaining that the conversation was lost due to deletion is now lost for a similar reason?

Anyway, it had to do with the Hebrew word "נָחַם."
 
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