Can a Christian lose their salvation

[7djengo7]

So, repenting is not a choice?

It is

But you said the fact that having faith is a choice debars one's having faith from being a gift from God; so why are you not consistent with yourself by also saying the fact that repenting is a choice debars one's repenting from being a gift from God? Why do you despise logic so venomously? Your war against logic manifests that you are a fool.

 

[7djengo7]

And you take that to mean that a man's act of repenting is somehow a gift provided to him by God? You don't see "granted repentance unto life" as metonymy for "granted an opportunity to repent unto life"?

It all comes down to the same thing.

What "all comes down to" what "same thing"? What you wrote, there, is yet another vacuous non-answer. Repenting and opportunity to repent are, in fact, not the same thing; they are two, different things.

 

[JudgeRightly]

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy 1:15[

According to @Hoping, Paul, chief of sinners, was not yet a Christian when he wrote his first epistle to Timothy.

Actually, what Paul is saying here is, quite literally, "I am the first sinner Jesus Christ came into the world to save."

In other words, Paul is the very first person to have been saved by grace.

"Chief sinner" here doesn't mean "greatest sinner." He was hardly the worst, and that's even including only the people who came before him. Herod comes to mind, or Pharaoh, or Pilate.

No, the word used does not mean "chief" as in "the chief of a village."

The word used is PROTOS, and it means "first, foremost, before, principal, most important."

Strong's g4413 - Lexical: πρῶτος - Transliteration: prótos - Part of Speech: Adjective - Phonetic Spelling: pro'-tos - Definition: first, before, principal, most important. - Origin: Contracted superlative of pro; foremost (in time, place, order or importance). - Usage: before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former. - Translated as (count): first (79), foremost (4), leading (3), the first (3), before (2), a first (1), at first (1), best (1), chief (1), chiefs (1), former things (1), leaders (1), principals (1), the foremost (1).

He reinforces this in the very next verse, even using the same word again (which was how people added significant emphasis to their words):

However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Timothy 1:16 - New King James Version

However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yep, Paul was the worst,

No, he wasn't.

Herod (the one in Matthew 2:16-18), and Pharaoh, literally ordered the murder of countless innocent children.

Paul (formerly Saul), at worst (according to scripture), oversaw the murder of Stephen, and the persecution of others, and he destroyed (not "tried to destroy" as some translations render it (there's no "try" in the passage)) the church, but that doesn't make him the greatest sinner, not by a long shot.

He wasn't a Christian when he was persecuting the church.

Duh, because he was not yet saved by grace.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

No, he wasn't.

Herod (the one in Matthew 2:16-18), and Pharaoh, literally ordered the murder of countless innocent children.

Paul (formerly Saul), at worst (according to scripture), oversaw the murder of Stephen, and the persecution of others, and he destroyed (not "tried to destroy" as some translations render it (there's no "try" in the passage)) the church, but that doesn't make him the greatest sinner, not by a long shot.

So, committing to prison and death those in Christ before Paul was not the greatest sin?
Maybe you don't think as highly of being in Christ as you ought?
Those in Christ before Paul had become as little children and were entering the kingdom of God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So, committing to prison and death those in Christ before Paul was not the greatest sin?
Maybe you don't think as highly of being in Christ as you ought?
Those in Christ before Paul had become as little children and were entering the kingdom of God.

Again, the word Paul used supports my position, and does not support yours.

Paul was first in the body of Christ, not the one who committed the worst sins.

"of whom I am the first"
"That in me first"

Don't ignore the context of what is being said just because it doesn't agree with what you've been taught.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Paul was first in the body of Christ, not the one who committed the worst sins.

Paul wasn't the first in Christ.
“Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.” – Romans 16:7

Don't ignore the context of what is being said just because it doesn't agree with what you've been taught.

Perhaps it is you who are ignoring context to misuse definitions to fit your paradigm.

 

[Right Divider]

Paul wasn't the first in Christ.
“Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.” – Romans 16:7

Nobody said that Paul was the first one "in Christ".
Paul was the first one in THE BODY OF CHRIST.

Perhaps it is you who are ignoring context to misuse definitions to fit your paradigm.

Paul said:
1Tim 1:16 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

That cannot be more clear. Paul is the PATTERN (and hence ... the FIRST).

 

[Rodger]

Acts 3:26 says nothing about repentance from sin being a gift provided by God. And you just got done telling @Rodger that Scripture never says that faith is a gift provided by God:

So, even though faith is not a gift from God, according to you, repentance somehow is?

Ephesians 2:8-9.........
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. "

How else could God have had Paul write that Scripture so as to make it any clearer that FAITH is the gift of God!!!!

Our response in salvation is faith, but even that is not of ourselves [but is] the gift of God. Faith is nothing that we do in our own power or by our own resources. In the first place we do not have adequate power or resources. More than that, God would not want us to rely on them even if we had them. Otherwise salvation would be in part by our own works, and we would have some ground to boast in ourselves. Paul intends to emphasize that even faith is not from us apart from God’s giving it.

 

[Rodger]

The only citing that came close to saying faith is a gift is the Eph. 2:8-9 one.
And the Eph. 2 "gift" is His grace, not faith.

I was...before I repented of sin. (Acts 3:26, 26:18,20)
I was...before the old me was destroyed and a new me was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

Misused scripture, again.
Jesus didn't sin, so your point is moot.
If the repentant and reborn of God's seed still committed sin, then there is now sin in God in whom we walk.
That can't happen. (1 John 1:5)

Then rebirth from God's accomplishes nothing.

The devil loves it when men use scripture against Godliness.
Jesus commanded us to be as perfect as God is perfect, in Matt 5:48.
Jesus' suffering, death, and resurrection facilitated a perfectly sinless life.
My statements glorify God, not me.

How many Scriptures do you need from God to validate what He said!

If YOU muster up enough faith to believe in God then YOU are doing exactly what Ephesians 2:9-9 condemns........WORKS.

You can repent, pray, be baptized every day, go to church every week, tithe your income but YOU are still a SINNER my friend!

You have been compromized and deceived. Just to say that you do not sin IS IN FACT the sin of Pride!

 

[Rodger]

You cited a scripture saying all men sinned and I cited the fact that Jesus didn't sin.
So your basis is not really true.

Why can't the book of Revelations be used when speaking of the church or its doctrine ?

I agree, so the only ones who will, or can, lose their salvation are the unbelievers.
And it is only the unbelievers who commit sin.
Believers don't commit sin.

Amen.
Our rebirth will be determined/proven on the day of judgement.

Your contention that ALL MEN SINNED does not apply because Jesus did not sin actually show the shallowness of your thinking.

Jesus did Not sin as a man because He was the God-Man. He had NO sin nature so He was unable to sin. Please brother, do a litlle study!!!

The Revelation can not be used to base any church doctrine because the Church is not in view. Everything in Revelation concerns Israel and the nations. The Tribulation is the “time of Jacob’s trouble” and God’s judgment of the nations.

Paul wrote the Church, the body is Christ, would not go through the wrath of the Day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 1.10, 5.1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2.1-15; Romans 5.9; Ephesians 5:6 & Colossians 3:6.

Therefore, no Church language of evidence of the Church is present in Revelation so there can not be any church doctrine found in the book.

 

[Rodger]

It most certainly does by the all examples the prophets gave of people that used to have trusting faith in the Lord deciding to turn away from Him and and worship another.



All you are saying is that you don't believe anyone ever turned from having trusting faith in the Lord to worship another, and yet scripture is full of examples of people that did just that.
Not only do we see that it happened in scripture but we see it happen in real life as well.
To claim that none of those people in scripture or real life have ever done such a thing is a cop out and doesn't line up with the stories in scripture.

What I said and am saying is that those who did leave........were never saved to begin with.

They were only believers in word only not the heart. And yes we see it every single day. Someone have an emotional experience.....cries and asked to be forgiven and goes to church for a couple of Sunday and then where are they now????

If that is NOT the case then way in the world did Jesus say in Matthew 7
"
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I do not agree that this is a cop. I stand on real life experiences!!!!

 

[Rodger]

Please fix your formatting. Your whole post appears to be a quote of @7djengo7

Yes I know. I do not know how that happened or how to fix it.

 

[Rodger]

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy 1:15[

According to @Hoping, Paul, chief of sinners, was not yet a Christian when he wrote his first epistle to Timothy.

And he would be wrong!

 

[Rodger]

I'm glad you asked !
First, is the gift of repentance from sin.
With that gift we can turn permanently from sin. (Acts 3:26)
Second, is the destruction of the old man. (Rom 6:6 Gal 5:24)
With that gift we no longer need walk in the flesh.
Third, is our rebirth and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
Now we can walk in the Spirit.
Fourth, the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
With that we have direct access to God, and from God too ! (Gal 6:8, Heb 4:16)

He provides things one step at a time, starting with hearing the gospel.
Those who taught me that, then taught me about repentance and water baptism.
With a sincere repentance from sin, and cleaning the of the "temple", I received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I have been learning, growing in grace and knowledge, from that point on.
Glory be to God !

No Sir.

The "Old Man" or the Sin Nature is never destroyed. It will be with you until the day you die.

Also........Water baptism has nothing to do with salvation.

Also........Every single person who accepts Christ as Saviour receives the Holy Spirit at the moment of repentance.

All you are doing is quoting Charismatic Pentecostal false teachings!

 

[Rodger]

But you said the fact that having faith is a choice debars one's having faith from being a gift from God; so why are you not consistent with yourself by also saying the fact that repenting is a choice debars one's repenting from being a gift from God? Why do you despise logic so venomously? Your war against logic manifests that you are a fool.

He is a hyper Charismatic Pentacostal and is only repeating the false teachings given to him. He has not do the Bible work to show himself approved as a workman.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Ephesians 2:8-9.........
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. "

How else could God have had Paul write that Scripture so as to make it any clearer that FAITH is the gift of God!!!!

Our response in salvation is faith, but even that is not of ourselves [but is] the gift of God. Faith is nothing that we do in our own power or by our own resources. In the first place we do not have adequate power or resources. More than that, God would not want us to rely on them even if we had them. Otherwise salvation would be in part by our own works, and we would have some ground to boast in ourselves. Paul intends to emphasize that even faith is not from us apart from God’s giving it.

Hold up.

Read the verse agan slowly:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:8-9 - New King James Version

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

www.biblegateway.com

Paul isn't saying that faith is a gift.

Paul is saying that being SAVED is the gift.

Notice the semicolon. It indicates that the next portion of the sentence is talking about something else than what was just said.

"Through faith" is just a prepositional phrase. It can be put anywhere in the sentence.

Allow me to demonstrate:

"For by grace through faith you have been saved, and that not of yourselves..."

Being saved is not of ourselves...

"... it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

No amount of works will save us, and in fact, working would mean a debt is owed. Paul reinforces this in Romans 4:4-5:

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:4-6 - New King James Version

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. David Celebrates the Same Truth - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God...

www.biblegateway.com

If we work, we have something to boast of, but not before God:

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:2 - New King James Version

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

www.biblegateway.com

The "that" in Ephesians 2:8 is not referring to Faith, but to being saved, because our works are a debt owed, but salvation is a free gift.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes I know. I do not know how that happened or how to fix it.

Click edit on your post, then move the End Quote tag from the very end of the post, to just after the text you quoted from 7djengo.

BB codes

The list of BB codes you can use to spice up the look of your messages. This page shows a list of all BB codes that are available.

theologyonline.com

 

[Rodger]

Hold up.

Read the verse agan slowly:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:8-9 - New King James Version

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

www.biblegateway.com

Paul isn't saying that faith is a gift.

Paul is saying that being SAVED is the gift.

Notice the semicolon. It indicates that the next portion of the sentence is talking about something else than what was just said.

"Through faith" is just a prepositional phrase. It can be put anywhere in the sentence.

Allow me to demonstrate:

"For by grace through faith you have been saved, and that not of yourselves..."

Being saved is not of ourselves...

"... it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

No amount of works will save us, and in fact, working would mean a debt is owed. Paul reinforces this in Romans 4:4-5:

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:4-6 - New King James Version

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. David Celebrates the Same Truth - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God...

www.biblegateway.com

If we work, we have something to boast of, but not before God:

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:2 - New King James Version

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

www.biblegateway.com

The "that" in Ephesians 2:8 is not referring to Faith, but to being saved, because our works are a debt owed, but salvation is a free gift.

Thanks for your input and I would not argue the point.

All I would say is that "we are saved “through faith.” In order to be saved, there is a necessary human response to God’s grace.

The response is not trying to be “good enough” to be saved. The response is simply trusting (having faith in) God to save on the basis of Christ’s goodness. Furthermore, we must understand that Faith is not a good work in itself that God rewards. Faith is simply Gods gift to us allowing us to cast off our unworthy selves on the mercy of a kind and forgiving and gracious God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Thanks for your input and I would not argue the point.

All I would say is that "we are saved “through faith.” In order to be saved, there is a necessary human response to God’s grace.

The response is not trying to be “good enough” to be saved. The response is simply trusting (having faith in) God to save on the basis of Christ’s goodness. Furthermore, we must understand that Faith is not a good work in itself that God rewards. Faith is simply Gods gift to us allowing us to cast off our unworthy selves on the mercy of a kind and forgiving and gracious God.

Agreed. Faith itself is not meritorious.

In other words, to use a favorite analogy of mine from Dr. Leighton Flowers:

Letting go of the rope one is trying to climb to get to heaven is not the same as continuing to climb the rope, where climbing the rope would be work, and letting go of the rope is no works, but faith that Christ, the One who already climbed the rope, will carry that person to heaven.

Letting go of the rope is not continuing to climb the rope.