Theology Club: can ya help a brother out

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Since Paul was the first (1 Timothy 1:16 KJV), the BoC started when he got saved. :)

Jesus was the first body of Christ and the 120 followed Him to become the same.

Then there were the 3000,

and after that there were a multitude of them, all members of the Body of Christ, His bride.

Paul was not the first in the body of Christ, the Bride.

Paul was the foremost example of the suffering servants, but many suffered for the word of God before Paul was saved.

LA
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Jesus was the first body of Christ and the 120 followed Him to become the same.

Then there were the 3000,

and after that there were a multitude of them, all members of the Body of Christ, His bride.

Paul was not the first in the body of Christ, the Bride.

Paul was the foremost example of the suffering servants, but many suffered for the word of God before Paul was saved.

LA

:chuckle:
 

LoneStar

New member
Paul went up by revelation and communicated unto them that gospel which he preached among the Gentiles, but Peter was committed the gospel of the circ. according to the passage. It never says he started to preach the gospel of the uncirc. And nowhere do we read Peter preaching the gospel of Christ as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth or that he believed it for his or their (Israel's) salvation (1 Peter 1:5-10 KJV).

Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.

Galatians 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Galatians 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

Galatians 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Galatians 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Galatians 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Galatians 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Forgive me if I am not understanding your post as intended; as it still leaves a burning question in my pea brain. Are you saying that Peter did believe in Paul's gospel? Would that not automatically place him into the boc? Or are you saying Peter was blinded to the full aspect of Paul's gospel; so he could only remain in the kingdom gospel? What I am trying to figure out is if any Jew that believed Peter's gospel first would automatically remain in the kingdom gospel; or how about if they believed Peter's gospel first but believed Paul's gospel later would they be in the kingdom or boc? It seems that some are of the inclination that Peter did believe Paul's gospel but was still not in the boc. How does that work out in that time when Paul was preaching? How many other Jews believed Paul's gospel but were not secured into the boc?
 

LoneStar

New member
I am on bended knee begging for help with this. :dizzy: I am sincerely grateful to all the helpful friends taking time from their schedule. I am understanding bits and pieces but I am still struggling with the question in my above post. No matter how I piece it together I cannot get that question out of my mind.
 

LoneStar

New member
Here's another question. Before Jesus came into the world as flesh was a Jew saved by believing in God and had a zeal for the law and believed in God's promise of the coming Messiah? Didn't the pharisees believe all that?
 

LoneStar

New member
[MENTION=17212]LoneStar[/MENTION]

Found this article with chart by Pastor Bob Hill.

Homework!!!!




Second Coming Confusion

When is the second coming? In about AD 50, Paul implied that he thought he would be alive when the rapture took place. 1 Th 4:15 " For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep." Then, in approximately 57 AD, the Apostle Paul thought it was soon. 1 Co 7:29 " But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none." About the same time, James thought it was soon. Jam 5:8 " You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." The Apostle John thought it was the last hour in about AD 70. 1 Jo 2:18 " Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour." When he wrote Revelation, he quoted Christ, Rev 22:7 " Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

The prophet, Montanus, in the 2nd century, predicted the soon bodily return of Christ. Novatian, in the 3rd century, expected the second coming of the Lord Jesus. The sack of Rome in the 5th century by the Vandals was supposed to bring the end. Pope Gregory, in the sixth century, told the Christian world that " of all the signs [describing] . . . the end of the world[,] some . . .[are] already accomplished. . . . we do not behold signs in the sun and moon and stars but . . . these are not far off . . ." On the last day of 999, the old basilica of St. Peter's at Rome was thronged with a mass of weeping and trembling worshipers awaiting the end of the world. There were repeated warnings in the dark ages.

Martin Luther wrote in January of 1532, " The last day is at hand. My calendar has run out." Many Adventists predicted the second coming in the 1840's. Dahl, in The Midnight Cry, predicted this era would end by 1980. Many predicted the rapture would take place in 1988 because it was 40 years after the reestablishment of Israel as a nation in 1948. Edgar Whisenant gave 88 reasons why in it would be in 1988. When it didn't happen, he then said it would take place in 1989. At one time I thought we could know the year of the rapture by figuring out the beginning of the 1000 years and subtract 7 years. But who can be sure when the millennium will begin?

A Korean group placed a large newspaper ad in many papers predicting the rapture would take place October 28, 1992. Grant Jeffrey says it will be 2000. What do you think?

The next thing that will happen is the rapture. 2 The 2:1-4 " Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition."

That will start a sequence of many prophetic events which are displayed in the following chart:

Eschatology – from Now to Eternity

Grace

The rapture ends this dispensation



2 Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.

1 Co 15:51,52

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorrupt-ible, and we shall be changed.
Tribulation

The beginning of the Lord's Day

Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Dan 9:27a And he will strengthen a covenant with the many for one heptad; and at the midpoint of the heptad he will stop sacrifice and grain offering.

Dan 12:11a And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, one thousand two hundred and ninety days.


Great & Awesome Day of the Lord

After the tribulation

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

Mat 24:29,30

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Judgment

Sheep and goat nations judged.

Mat 25:31,32 When the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

<tbody>
</tbody>


CHART CONTINUED......



1,000 year reign

Tribulation martyrs reign with Christ

Rev 20:4,6 Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


Satan Loosed

After 1,000 years

Gog and Magog

Rev 20:7-9 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.


Great White Throne

The rest of the dead are judged.

Rev 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it . . . 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 . . . And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


New Heaven and Earth

Israel's kingdom is established

Rev 21:1,3,27; 22:5 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. . . . 3 Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. . . . 27 only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. 22:5 And they shall reign forever and ever.



Robert T. HillÊ 1998

<tbody>
</tbody>



Then the tribulation. The rapture is before the tribulation because nothing in this dispensation is prophesied. Eph 3:8,9 " To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ." That's what we call the nature of the mystery. Israel was identified as the people of the tribulation by Daniel (Dan 9:24; 10:14; 12:1). Our Lord Jesus Christ mentioned Daniel's abomination of desolation (Dan 9:27; 11:31) in the tribulation's setting (Mat 24:15-21).

The purpose of the tribulation is to purify Israel for her kingdom reign (Dan 9:24; Zec 13:9). In fact, in Jer 30:7, the tribulation is specifically called a time of tribulation for Jacob. Therefore, a tribulation which is specifically designated for Israel is irrelevant to the church which is His body.

Since the nature of the mystery shows us that the body of Christ is never referred to in biblical prophecy prior to Paul's conversion, we can make some conclusions about when it occurs. They are:

A. Prophecy about the people in the tribulation would not refer to the body of Christ.

B. Prophecy about the day of the Lord would not apply to the body of Christ.

C. Prophecy about the people under the wrath of God would not apply to the body of Christ.

Therefore, the rapture, since it only applies to the body of Christ, must take place prior to the prophetic program which follows it for the next 1,007 years. Then the great and awesome day of the Lord is next. This is what is normally called the second coming. Then the judgment of the nations takes place. Then the millennial reign of Christ begins. Then Satan is loosed. Then the great white throne judgment takes place. Then the new heavens and earth are established. And so shall we ever be with the Lord. Come, Lord Jesus.


Please forgive any formatting errors. This report was originally created for a different format.

I'll gawk at this after supper. It's about ready isn't it? taps nails
 

musterion

Well-known member
I suppose it doesn't have to be today. What gospel did Peter believe for salvation? The one he was preaching or the one Paul was preaching?

Peter preached the Gospel of the Kingdom, as seen in Acts 2:38. The key to that Gospel was the national repentance of Israel.

Paul's Gospel takes no account of Israel; in fact it came as a result of Israel's stumbling.

One of these two Gospels is deactivated, the other is the current power of God unto salvation.
 

Danoh

New member
I'll gawk at this after supper. It's about ready isn't it? taps nails

An exercise I have often found both very informing as well as highly useful during my own studies, over the years; has been my practice of taking apart a study like that comparison by Pastor Hill that Tam posted - seeking out for myself answers to questions like "now what principles of study does it appear this writer might have been applying, that resulted in all that for him? What might those have been? How would they look in written form, towards my own use during my own studies?"

After some time at that, it becomes automatic "by reason of use" Heb. 5:14, and this then allows Acts 17:11,12 much better, each time out.

After awhile, you begin to automatically discern the study principles any person is applying and or applied, may or may not have misapplied, failed to, might do well to, etc., including both you...and I.

And you find yourself growing in your own understanding even when reading or hearing error.

You find your Things That Differ "discerner" not only ever sharpening, but understood by you, even as you are applying it.

At which point, you are no longer stuck very long as to what one passage or another might or might not be asserting.

You find you know how to study the thing out. And how to study out where you may have been off.

And you continue to grow in that...

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12
 

Danoh

New member
I suppose it doesn't have to be today. What gospel did Peter believe for salvation? The one he was preaching or the one Paul was preaching?

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Regarding your question, there; you can also have that kind of joy described in Luke 24:32...

In your own right and through the Scripture Itself.

How?

Compare all of John 1 with John 5 and John 8.

Look for the Things That Differ between Believing and Unbelieving (and or Supposedly Believing) Jews, there.

Then compare that with Matt. 16 and Matt. 19.

Looking to answer for yourself questions like "what is the thing that differs as to what they'd each believed; were required to believe; it appears each had actually believed; and what were the believing ones promised?"

After a while, these kinds of questions of the Text itself, will become your compass...

Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12
 

Danoh

New member
Here's another question. Before Jesus came into the world as flesh was a Jew saved by believing in God and had a zeal for the law and believed in God's promise of the coming Messiah? Didn't the pharisees believe all that?

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

In contrast to...

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

And...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

As things transitioned from the Law and the Prophets to He Whom they had Prophesied should come unto Israel, the requirement went from obey Moses while believing the Christ is to come unto Israel...

To believe that He (the Christ) is He whom the Law and the Prophets did say should come unto Israel; and obey Him.

Case in point, of such Moses Believing Israelites...

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Again, though, a thought - consider reflecting on what questions and study principles one poster or another (including this one) appears to be applying and or to have mis-fired on.

This way, you get way much more out of any answer than you'd expected to.

Works for me :)

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12.
 

musterion

Well-known member
LoneStar, a question for you:

"And He said unto them [the 12], Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel..." (Mark 16:15)

"And I [Paul] communicated unto them [the 12] that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles" (Gal 2:2)

Why did Paul have a different good news from what the 12 were commanded to preach?
 

LoneStar

New member
Peter preached the Gospel of the Kingdom, as seen in Acts 2:38. The key to that Gospel was the national repentance of Israel.

Paul's Gospel takes no account of Israel; in fact it came as a result of Israel's stumbling.

One of these two Gospels is deactivated, the other is the current power of God unto salvation.
I get all of this. The question that still remains in my brain is which gospel was Peter saved by? The one he preached or the one Paul preached assuming Peter believed both? I'm trying to think of other ways to ask the same question to get my point across. When Peter's gospel was deactivated which gospel was he required to then believe to be saved?
 

LoneStar

New member
LoneStar, a question for you:





Why did Paul have a different good news from what the 12 were commanded to preach?
My root answer would be that God gave them different gospels to preach. Peter's testimony came first. But Paul comes along with a different testimony. Paul would be the latest prophet. When God sends a prophet he expects his people to listen and believe him. Peter seems to accept Paul is a prophet from God. He should accept the words of this prophet to be true and binding. If Peter accepted the words of Paul as being the words from God, his duty would have been to believe on Paul's testimony. Paul's assertion is there is no other gospel that saves apart from his gospel testimony. Am I correct so far? The indication is that Peter and all others could only be saved by Paul's gospel at that time.
 

LoneStar

New member
An exercise I have often found both very informing as well as highly useful during my own studies, over the years; has been my practice of taking apart a study like that comparison by Pastor Hill that Tam posted - seeking out for myself answers to questions like "now what principles of study does it appear this writer might have been applying, that resulted in all that for him? What might those have been? How would they look in written form, towards my own use during my own studies?"

After some time at that, it becomes automatic "by reason of use" Heb. 5:14, and this then allows Acts 17:11,12 much better, each time out.

After awhile, you begin to automatically discern the study principles any person is applying and or applied, may or may not have misapplied, failed to, might do well to, etc., including both you...and I.

And you find yourself growing in your own understanding even when reading or hearing error.

You find your Things That Differ "discerner" not only ever sharpening, but understood by you, even as you are applying it.

At which point, you are no longer stuck very long as to what one passage or another might or might not be asserting.

You find you know how to study the thing out. And how to study out where you may have been off.

And you continue to grow in that...

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12
I get it bud. My study practices are not up to your standards. Sorry.
 

LoneStar

New member
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Regarding your question, there; you can also have that kind of joy described in Luke 24:32...

In your own right and through the Scripture Itself.

How?

Compare all of John 1 with John 5 and John 8.

Look for the Things That Differ between Believing and Unbelieving (and or Supposedly Believing) Jews, there.

Then compare that with Matt. 16 and Matt. 19.

Looking to answer for yourself questions like "what is the thing that differs as to what they'd each believed; were required to believe; it appears each had actually believed; and what were the believing ones promised?"

After a while, these kinds of questions of the Text itself, will become your compass...

Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12
Is your answer Peter was saved by his gospel or saved by Paul's gospel? I can't tell what your answer is. Sorry.
 

LoneStar

New member
I apologize for not being here as often as I should after starting this thread. Work has picked up so drastically that I am having to turn people away. I will make an effort to balance my time and participate more than I have. This discussion has peaked my interest in getting back into the word of God more so than I have been lately.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I apologize for not being here as often as I should after starting this thread. Work has picked up so drastically that I am having to turn people away. I will make an effort to balance my time and participate more than I have. This discussion has peaked my interest in getting back into the word of God more so than I have been lately.
Yay!
 
Top