Catholics Should Believe Their First Pope

RevTestament

New member
I assumed you were referring to the Holy Spirit of the New Testament.

You were the one who asked.

  • Does that, then, include the LDS church?
  • Let me make something clear here. The scriptures contain the express will of the Lord. If someone makes a statement from the pulpit, it may or may not be directly from the Lord. If they represent that the spirit revealed it or that the Lord spoke this to them, I would generally grant it more weight, and if I didn't understand it, I would pray about it. If it appears to conflict with existing written scripture, I would pray about my understanding of both very carefully.
    There have been a number of people who told me they prayed about the Book of Mormon or "the LDS church" and received the answer that it is not true. Such people have always been quick to add the many other reasons they do not believe in the church. I received a direct answer that the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is true, and did not concern myself with or ask about what the naysayers say - that is not praying in faith.
    [*]Also, does that include the documents of the New Testament, which are themselves "interpretations made by a Church"?
To be quite honest I have prayed about the NT, and haven't gotten any direct answers about it. I have never really questioned its validity tho. I know it is true. But I wanted to understand the atonement. Or I wanted to know if the Peshitta has any books which are a more valid version than the Greek. To date I have received no answer on the latter. I do not quite agree with you that the NT is an interpretation of a church. I believe this to be most true of the letters of Paul which contain both inspired prophecy and his interpretation of things. The 4 gospels contain the words of Christ to the extent they were remembered as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Sometimes they must be read in conjunction to get a fuller picture of what actually was said or transpired.

While we are on the subject it is mho tho that the Book of Mormon is telling us that the early Roman state church or the RCC altered the text of the Bible in some important ways, and indeed I have found this to be the case. Just a small example is Jerome's translation of Chittim into Italy.
How, exactly, would He do this...?
Usually by communicating it to one's soul, but occasionally by directly speaking to a searcher.
 

RevTestament

New member
Course it would be! Why?....The book of Mormon makes THIS blasphemous statement against the Holy Bible.

From the introduction of the Book of Mormon:
"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible... ...and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel."...
First that is actually not from the Book of Mormon itself, but was added later as a Forward. Nevertheless, how is that blasphemous? It teaches what one needs to be saved. It is what the people needed since they didn't have the NT record.
"Concerning this record the*Prophet Joseph Smith*said: "I told the brethren that the BOOK OF MORMON WAS THE MOST CORRECT OF ANY BOOK ON EARTH, AND THE KEYSTONE OF OUR RELIGION, AND A MAN WOULD GET NEARER TO GOD BY ABIDING BY ITS PRECEPTS, THAN ANY OTHER BOOK."

The BOM clearly elevates itself above the Bible.
First, that statement is not from the BoM, but was a statement Joseph Smith made about it which is not even in the book.
Second, it doesn't make the Book of Mormon more important than the Bible, even if it is technically more correct. Over the millennia the Bible has suffered some losses of text in its various versions, as well as having uninspired books added to it like the apocrypha used by the Catholic church which even adulterizes Daniel.

How can the LDS Church even use the Bible at all if they teach it is inferior to the Book of Mormon?
The Bible is what converted me to the LDS church, and while I don't believe it is "perfect" it is valid and inspired and is every bit as important, if not more important than the Book of Mormon. And indeed it prophesies that it will become one with the BoM before the eyes of the people (Ezek 37). Nevertheless, the BoM does clarify some of the prophecies of the Bible which may otherwise be misunderstood. I don't believe you will find the LDS church teaches that the Bible is inferior to the BoM. I certainly do not feel that way nor teach that - actually my first love continues to be the Bible - even with its imperfections. Nor was the BoM perfect despite the efforts of Joseph Smith. It had some errors although the vast majority were semantic in nature or caused by initial lack of punctuation.

God Bless!
You too!
 

RevTestament

New member
Your tacit claim to know and comprehend the content of my posted sources without having read them is noted, and rejected as patented nonsense. Here you merely beg the question in favor of your present bias toward the Mormon belief system. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis: "A Mormon has to be very careful of what he reads." Your deliberate avoidance of relevant material is noted, as is the lack of intellectual integrity that stands behind it.

I don't appreciate you calling me a liar. I did open those pages and read them - they mostly concerned the pun on the play between Peter's name, and a stone and other such relative nonsense. That does not get to the heart of what Jesus was saying - He wasn't just playing word games.

Categorically refuted here, here, here, here, and here.
Sorry, in my estimation, this is more of the same nonsense. Peter being a stone for Jesus, is not like Abraham being blessed as the father of many nations. You can believe that if you want, but I know better. Here is another example from the gospel of a stone being revelation or a part of the Word:

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

and another:

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Your links are a bunch of fluffy nonsense.
 

Sancocho

New member
I gave a reference which you did not care for, and instead accused me of lying or trying to trick you.

I think you have a deep religious bias which you refuse to give up. This insistence of yours that abortion statistics all seem to come from the Guttmacher Institute is simply not valid.
Here is another:
(CNSNews.com) – In 2012, there were more black babies killed by abortion (31,328) in New York City than were born there (24,758), and the black children killed comprised 42.4% of the total number of abortions in the Big Apple, according to a report by the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene.
For Hispanic women, there were 22,917 abortions in New York City in 2012, which is 31% of the total abortions.

Black and Hispanic abortions combined, 54,245 babies, is 73% of the total abortions in the Big Apple in 2012.
The report is entitled, Summary of Vital Statistics 2012 The City of New York, Pregnancy Outcomes, and was prepared by the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, Office of Vital Statistics.
The CDC also does abortion statistics which are independent of Planned Parenthood.
None of them support your insistence that Protestants are leading the charge for abortion. I will also remind you that abortion in Russia and China is also quite high, and there has nothing to do with Protestantism but rather "Communism."

Your are so desperate to prove me wrong you apparently could care less that we are discussing illegal abortions, not legal abortions, as your claim was about abortion in Brazil, where it is illegal except for medical conditions or rape. This is not becoming of a Christian. Embrace the truth.
 

Cruciform

New member
I received a direct answer that the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is true...
By what means, exactly, and how do you know---not assume or believe---this with certainty?

...and did not concern myself with or ask about what the naysayers say

It's easy to believe things in the willful ignorance of alternative positions. Here's what it looks like:


head_in_sand_reverse-process-s300x184.png


...that is not praying in faith.

What you're describing is not praying in faith, but assuming in credulity (see photo above). God endowed human beings with the power of reason for a purpose, and that purpose was not so that we should flee from critical thinking into some sort of blissful irrationality. Anti-intellectualism is simply not an option for Christ's faithful, for we are commanded to love the Lord with all of our mind, not merely our soul.

I do not quite agree with you that the NT is an interpretation of a church.
It is an interpretation of the Tanach (Old Testament) by the Apostolic Church (its leaders, the apostles and early bishops).

Usually by communicating it to one's soul...
What does that mean? How exactly does the Spirit "communicate something to one's soul"? Please describe this process, and how one knows---not assumes or believes---that it is the Spirit's communication at all.

...but occasionally by directly speaking to a searcher.
Again, explain how one knows---not assumes or believes---that this supposed voice is in fact the Spirit, and not merely one's own feelings, thoughts, and imaginings.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Sancocho

New member
Hey Revtestament, speaking of abortion in Brazil, the founders of Planned Parenthood were racist just like the founders of the LDS because they both hated black people. In fact that is why PP builds it's clinics is inner city areas and why half of all blacks conceived in the womb are murdered in these areas.

Speaking of your defense of Planned Parenthoods racist propaganda to establish itself in Brazil so it can kill even more "undesirable races" might I ask you to clarify you stance regarding human beings - are we all the same in the eyes of God or did God create some people "better" than others?
 

RevTestament

New member
Your are so desperate to prove me wrong you apparently could care less that we are discussing illegal abortions, not legal abortions, as your claim was about abortion in Brazil, where it is illegal except for medical conditions or rape. This is not becoming of a Christian. Embrace the truth.
You are easy to prove wrong since you use no statistics to support your baseless opinion that "Protestant countries" "are the source" or "promote" abortion, homosexuality, etc. I have shown facts which tend to disprove your baseless assertions - namely that Protestants in America are not the source of the sins you rail about.
Now how does it matter if abortion in Catholic Brazil is legal or not to the issue that abortion actually takes place there? It just shows that Catholics there are willing to break the law to commit the sin of abortion you want to allege is promoted by "Protestant America." In fact I find it rather distasteful for you to try to hide behind "illegal abortion" as a reason not to rely on statistics when it just so happens that it is illegal in all the Catholic countries of Latin America which you allege "promote true Christianity" - how convenient for you.
 

Sancocho

New member
You are easy to prove wrong since you use no statistics to support your baseless opinion that "Protestant countries" "are the source" or "promote" abortion, homosexuality, etc. I have shown facts which tend to disprove your baseless assertions - namely that Protestants in America are not the source of the sins you rail about.
Now how does it matter if abortion in Catholic Brazil is legal or not to the issue that abortion actually takes place there? It just shows that Catholics there are willing to break the law to commit the sin of abortion you want to allege is promoted by "Protestant America." In fact I find it rather distasteful for you to try to hide behind "illegal abortion" as a reason not to rely on statistics when it just so happens that it is illegal in all the Catholic countries of Latin America which you allege "promote true Christianity" - how convenient for you.

You have no valid references.

I have clearly pointed out that Planned Parenthood is the source of "illegal" abortions in the world and as such it is not reliable, yet you persist. Most Latin American countries do not have abortion on demand. FACT.
 

RevTestament

New member
Sancocho straw-man fantasy falls

Sancocho straw-man fantasy falls

Speaking of your defense of Planned Parenthoods racist propaganda to establish itself in Brazil so it can kill even more "undesirable races" might I ask you to clarify you stance regarding human beings - are we all the same in the eyes of God or did God create some people "better" than others?
You have now crossed the line with me bud. I won't tolerate being accused of things I haven't done, nor being made into the butt of your straw man make-believe world. I have in no way defended Planned Parenthood nor racism. Quite the contrary. I have flatly stated their practice of selling fetal parts is despicable. I cannot help the fact that statistics do not support your "fantasy world" and show that abortions are many times higher among "Catholic" hispanics as opposed to whites, many of whom you allege as being Protestant. Just because the facts do not support your baseless theory doesn't make me a racist. If you can't muster any evidence to support your ridiculous accusations about "protestant countries" promoting these things, then I must conclude that your accusations are baseless, and are just figments of your own prejudices concerning Protestants. I won't use up my time on this kind of rubbish. Good day.
 

Sancocho

New member
You have now crossed the line with me bud. I won't tolerate being accused of things I haven't done, nor being made into the butt of your straw man make-believe world. I have in no way defended Planned Parenthood nor racism. Quite the contrary. I have flatly stated their practice of selling fetal parts is despicable. I cannot help the fact that statistics do not support your "fantasy world" and show that abortions are many times higher among "Catholic" hispanics as opposed to whites, many of whom you allege as being Protestant. Just because the facts do not support your baseless theory doesn't make me a racist. If you can't muster any evidence to support your ridiculous accusations about "protestant countries" promoting these things, then I must conclude that your accusations are baseless, and are just figments of your own prejudices concerning Protestants. I won't use up my time on this kind of rubbish. Good day.

Forgive me for asking but your propensity to use obviously tainted data from the propaganda arm of Planned Parenthood coupled with the fact that early LDS leaders were documented racists made me wonder.

I recommend you look at the real facts from pro life webpages regarding illegal abortion in the world instead of believing a diabolic organization.

I also applaud you for standing up for children's rights. I also know as as an American it is difficult to accept we have more abortions than Latin American countries and promote abortion more than any other country but the facts are the facts, sorry. If it is any condolence I had a hard time believing the truth as well.

I do find it odd than anyone who knows of the racist past of the LDS could support them since it was part of church doctrine.
 

RevTestament

New member
By what means, exactly, and how do you know---not assume or believe---this with certainty?
Doesn't matter since you will not accept my personal "subjective" experiences. So if I tell you the Lord told me this church is true, you will not believe. For the most part people do not believe other people's "subjective" experiences concerning God unless they coincide with their own. Again for the most part they will only believe if they have the experience themselves.

It's easy to believe things in the willful ignorance of alternative positions. ***

Anti-intellectualism is simply not an option for Christ's faithful, for we are commanded to love the Lord with all of our mind, not merely our soul.
I resolve that commandment differently. I do not go to the Lord with doubts. It is my job to seek out the truth to the point that I can pray about something succinctly. I do not pray about what John Doe said. I believe that is not showing faith. If He says to pray about whether the BoM is true, then that is what I am to do unencumbered by outside prejudices. If He tells me it is true, then the outside naysayers are wrong. However, contrary to what you would believe about me, I am quite familiar with what the naysayers say, and have studied virtually all their many arguments against the church - so that is not sticking my head in the sand.

James 1: 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

I believe this is where many go wrong when they pray about the BoM. They do encumber themselves with doubts they want the answer to. They must be totally committed to live by the answer they receive.

What you're describing is not praying in faith, but assuming in credulity (see photo above).
I disagree, and just showed why.
God endowed human beings with the power of reason for a purpose, and that purpose was not so that we should flee from critical thinking into some sort of blissful irrationality. Anti-intellectualism is simply not an option for Christ's faithful, for we are commanded to love the Lord with all of our mind, not merely our soul.
I am not "anti-intellectual" at all. I understand there are many arguments against the Church of Jesus Christ. There are also many arguments against the RCC. But I don't pray about arguments of men. I pray about my understanding of His word. I pray about the truth of scripture interpretation. Ultimately, that is what I need to know.

Proverbs 25:2

2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Praying about the beliefs or arguments of men is not demonstrating faith in Him and His word. I sincerely doubt anyone has ever gotten any answers from the Lord that way.

It is an interpretation of the Tanach (Old Testament) by the Apostolic Church (its leaders, the apostles and early bishops).
On the contrary. The NT is the revelation of Christ to us concerning the Tanakh. It is NOT our interpretation of Christ to Him. Catholics seem to have that backwards, but they are used to that with the formulation of creeds in which they tell the people what to believe.

What does that mean? How exactly does the Spirit "communicate something to one's soul"? Please describe this process, and how one knows---not assumes or believes---that it is the Spirit's communication at all.

Doctrine and Covenants 9:8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.


Again, explain how one knows---not assumes or believes---that this supposed voice is in fact the Spirit, and not merely one's own feelings, thoughts, and imaginings.
I have heard the voice of the Lord even as a mere child while reading the scriptures in my Baptist church with no thought of prayer or seeking any kind of answer. He just spoke to me. So I know what it is like. Others in my church have related similar stories. Of course to basically everyone else that is crazy talk, and I have never told anyone what was said to me. Protestants generally do not believe that kind of presentation. Psychiatrists would probably first assume that such a presentation by a child is delusional. So I ultimately forgot about it until many years later when the Lord again spoke to me in prayer. For me I know it is real because of the many answers I have received since that time as well as other powerful experiences. To everyone else, it is basically crazy talk. They will not believe until they see fruits. There are simply too many false prophets in the world.
But if the Lord spoke to you in your earnest prayer, then you would know what I am talking about. I even read one person who said while investigating this church, he heard a voice tell him "it is true, it is true" while sitting in a service, so he joined even though he later left based on doubts he began to have. One story relates a man who was working in his front yard while wondering and praying how to help his neighbor, when he heard a voice tell him "stop the boys on the bikes." Startled, he looked up but saw no one. So he went out to his sidewalk and so no one. So he went out further, and there coming down the street were two young men on bicycles. Flabbergasted, he stared as they rode by. Then he yelled out to them. Both he and his neighbor converted to the church from the strength of this experience.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/10/ask-the-missionaries-they-can-help-you?lang=eng

So it is not something unheard of in my church. Many members have had a voice warning them, etc.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Catholics Should Believe Their First Pope.

Catholics Should Believe Their First Pope.

...which was Paul, the founder of Christianity in the city of Antioch where Christians were called Christians for the very first time. (Acts 11:26) It is only obvious that, from this text, Paul was the first Pope. I know that Peter is claimed to have been the one but, obviously he couldn't. He was a Jew loyal to his Faith which was Judaism and a Jew could not have been the First Pope. However, there was a Pope from Jewish origin though but, he had converted to the Catholic Church and had joined the Clergy life. His name was Pope Gregory VII the Great. (From the book, "History of Christianity.")
 

RevTestament

New member
Forgive me for asking but your propensity to use obviously tainted data from the propaganda arm of Planned Parenthood coupled with the fact that early LDS leaders were documented racists made me wonder.
First the last data I gave was from individual state departments - not the Guttmacher Institute. I don't think it matters where I get the data from, you are going to continue down this same baseless, accusational path.
I recommend you look at the real facts from pro life webpages regarding illegal abortion in the world instead of believing a diabolic organization.
Again, I have not used any data from the Guttmacher Institute nor Planned Parenthood.
But here is some data from the National Right to Life Committee:
http://www.nrlc.org/uploads/factsheets/FS01AbortionintheUS.pdf
It shows the CDC data is plainly different from the Guttmacher Institute, and is not "tainted" by them as you seem to infer.

I also applaud you for standing up for children's rights. I also know as as an American it is difficult to accept we have more abortions than Latin American countries and promote abortion more than any other country but the facts are the facts, sorry.
Nope. On a per capita basis that is not true. Of course since the US has many more people than any of these other countries, the absolute number is greater for the US. But as a rate based upon a percentage of abortions per citizen, it is highly doubtful you are correct. All the statistics for the US agree the rates of abortion in the US have been in a steady decline for decades now.
If it is any condolence I had a hard time believing the truth as well.
What truth? you haven't provided a single shred of evidence to support your assertions. I simply don't like people making unfounded statements.
I do find it odd than anyone who knows of the racist past of the LDS could support them since it was part of church doctrine.
And this is simply one more. My church has never denied membership to any race nor practiced segregation. Nevertheless, the membership did basically all come from Protestant churches, and therefore came into the church with their own prejudices.
The church was anti-slavery, and Joseph Smith had received a revelation that there would be a civil war probably over the slave issue. When the church moved into pro-slavery territory, its small black membership seemed to stir up extra trouble and persecutions for the church on top of the many she already received. Brigham Young didn't really give a reason for disallowing black men to hold the priesthood, but he did say that they would be allowed to hold it in the future, and he denounced those who persecuted blacks. It seems to me a common Protestant theory about Cain, was implicit in all this. To be blunt this is one of the few original doubts I had about the church. Whatever the case may be, the Lord eventually made it clear that blacks could not only be members, but black men could hold the priesthood. I will not fault the church as a whole for prejudices the leadership may have once held when it is also possible the Lord had His reasons.
The Lord is not prejudiced, but sometimes He does make things wait until the proper time - the Gentiles had to wait. Is that because the Lord was prejudiced against them? Nevertheless, the Bible makes it clear that people from Egypt and Ethiopia will come to Him in the latter days.

The Book of Mormon says:

2 Nephi 26:33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

Nonetheless women have never held the priesthood. Do Catholics believe that makes God sexist?
 

Right Divider

Body part
I became a Protestant when I believed the claims against the Catholic Church.

However, after becoming a Protestant after researching all the "evidence" I found out it was baseless.

If you have something to "prove" do it with a reference not just because you "say so".

You're funny. You make the claim without evidence and then require evidence to the contrary.

Israel had scripture long before your "church" invented itself
 
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Cruciform

New member
Doesn't matter since you will not accept my personal "subjective" experiences.
I won't accept my own personal subjective experiences either, since there's no way to distinguish my psychological, emotional, and/or imaginative thoughts from any supposed externally-communicated divine "voice"---and neither can you. Thus, the very best you can say is that you "assume" or "believe" that you've had an experience of the divine, but you simply cannot claim that you know you've received a communication from God. You've merely chosen to interpret your experience as "God's word," but whether or not it actually is such a thing is entirely unknowable.

So if I tell you the Lord told me this church is true, you will not believe.
Of course not. Nor would I believe the New Ager who claims that "the Lord told him" that Jesus is an alien from Neptune, and that's why He could walk on water. Assumptions and beliefs are one thing; knowledge and truth are quite another.


I believe I've already answered the rest of your statements in prior posts.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
I won't accept my own personal subjective experiences either, since there's no way to distinguish my psychological, emotional, and/or imaginative thoughts from any supposed externally-communicated divine "voice"---and neither can you. Thus, the very best you can say is that you "assume" or "believe" that you've had an experience of the divine, but you simply cannot claim that you know you've received a communication from God. You've merely chosen to interpret your experience as "God's word," but whether or not it actually is such a thing is entirely unknowable.


Of course not. Nor would I believe the New Ager who claims that "the Lord told him" that Jesus is an alien from Neptune, and that's why He could walk on water. Assumptions and beliefs are one thing; knowledge and truth are quite another.


I believe I've already answered the rest of your statements in prior posts.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Faith is not something that is in your bag and can be taken out and measured. Faith is in the heart. We don't serve those because it is some measure of faith or the result of some command. We serve those in need because in our heart we know it is the right thing to do. Look at Matthew 25 about the sheep and the goats. People didn't serve because they were told to, they served because there was need.

If you attempt to reduce faith to a formula or a check list them you have no faith at all.
 

Cruciform

New member
Faith is not something that is in your bag and can be taken out and measured. Faith is in the heart. We don't serve those because it is some measure of faith or the result of some command. We serve those in need because in our heart we know it is the right thing to do. Look at Matthew 25 about the sheep and the goats. People didn't serve because they were told to, they served because there was need. If you attempt to reduce faith to a formula or a check list them you have no faith at all.
Faith is far more than a mere emotion, sentiment, or good intention. Genuine faith cannot be separated from faithfulness. It is something we DO, a commitment to serve the Lord. Faith is loyalty, fidelity, self-sacrifice.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Faith is far more than a mere emotion, sentiment, or good intention. Genuine faith cannot be separated from faithfulness. It is something we DO, a commitment to serve the Lord. Faith is loyalty, fidelity, self-sacrifice.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
Why you do something is more important than what you do. Faith cannot be imperially measured as your post implied. You say you don't trust your own emotions. You should. If you see somebody in need and your motivation for helping them is that your church obligates you to do so, then your work, regardless of how magnificent it is, is naught but filthy rags.

While I agree that spiritual discipline is needed, that discipline should never serve as the sole or even primary motivation for our actions. Our acts must be motivated out of love for both God and our neighbor.
 

RevTestament

New member
I won't accept my own personal subjective experiences either, since there's no way to distinguish my psychological, emotional, and/or imaginative thoughts from any supposed externally-communicated divine "voice"---and neither can you. Thus, the very best you can say is that you "assume" or "believe" that you've had an experience of the divine, but you simply cannot claim that you know you've received a communication from God. You've merely chosen to interpret your experience as "God's word," but whether or not it actually is such a thing is entirely unknowable.
To Abraham it wasn't unknowable - he was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac which seems like a demonic request to us. To Moses the voice of the Lord wasn't unknowable, but he followed the command.
And to the young Methodist who heard "stop the boys on the bikes" it wasn't unknowable. How could that just be his imagination? Did his imagination know there were two young missionaries on bikes headed down the street by his house? Either the devil was able to hear his silent prayer or someone heard his prayer and was intervening due to his humble request. So I can understand his open response to the missionaries.

The things which have happened to me are inexplicable other than by supernatural intervention. I experienced them. I cannot sufficiently communicate them, and do not try. I do try to reveal what I have been taught as a result of these experiences, however, but for now must be content with the knowledge that one day people will appreciate what God has done as His strange work proceeds.

Of course not. Nor would I believe the New Ager who claims that "the Lord told him" that Jesus is an alien from Neptune, and that's why He could walk on water. Assumptions and beliefs are one thing; knowledge and truth are quite another.
And like I said, I don't really expect you to believe me. I wouldn't believe myself if I hadn't experienced it. Yet, I did, and did, and did over the course of years. But rather than try to get people to believe what I personally experienced, I merely try to relay what I have been taught through my own seeking.

But maybe there are people who are willing to seek after the truth who are willing to pray about possible new scripture. I did it. Many others have read the Book of Mormon as well to gain a testimony of it. My own children have to develop their own testimonies of the BoM and of the truthfulness of the restored gospel. While I have relayed a few stories to them, I simply cannot give them my personal experiences.

I hesitate to say this, but it seems you have trouble in the "faith" department.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution[ie restoration] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

These are those last days when all things are being restored in order that He may return, and the mystery of God shall be made complete.

There is no way to gain more truth if one is not willing to search. One doesn't have to give up what they have known to search...and live without regrets.
 

RevTestament

New member
Why you do something is more important than what you do. Faith cannot be imperially measured as your post implied. You say you don't trust your own emotions. You should. If you see somebody in need and your motivation for helping them is that your church obligates you to do so, then your work, regardless of how magnificent it is, is naught but filthy rags.

While I agree that spiritual discipline is needed, that discipline should never serve as the sole or even primary motivation for our actions. Our acts must be motivated out of love for both God and our neighbor.
:thumb:
And there is the heart of true Christianity.
 
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