Church and believers are not to judge, God and Christ will judge.

[DFT_Dave]

I found the following on a church's statement of faith: "Christ commands His followers to rebuke and to judge with righteous judgment and to forgive those who repent. One day God will resurrect the dead, punish the unbelievers and reward those whom He has justified with the life of the world to come."

Many believe there is a distinction between judgment and to judge. "Judgment (noun) is the cognitive process of forming an opinion, discernment, or the result of a decision, often based on facts and critical thinking. To judge (verb) is the act of condemning" [verbally not just to punish] and I would add rebuking and possibly shaming. Given these definitions, would you affirm or oppose the given statement of faith? Do you believe it is the role of the church to judge (verb) or not? I will argue the church is not to judge and that the statement of faith is flawed.

 

[Right Divider]

I found the following on a church's statement of faith: "Christ commands His followers to rebuke and to judge with righteous judgment and to forgive those who repent. One day God will resurrect the dead, punish the unbelievers and reward those whom He has justified with the life of the world to come."

Many believe there is a distinction between judgment and to judge. "Judgment (noun) is the cognitive process of forming an opinion, discernment, or the result of a decision, often based on facts and critical thinking. To judge (verb) is the act of condemning" [verbally not just to punish] and I would add rebuking and possibly shaming. Given these definitions, would you affirm or oppose the given statement of faith? Do you believe it is the role of the church to judge (verb) or not? I will argue the church is not to judge and that the statement of faith is flawed.

This church sounds typical of Churchianity today. They do not rightly divide and therefore confuse instructions for Israel with instructions for the body of Christ.

1Co 6:3 (KJV) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?​

 

[DFT_Dave]

Hi, how are you? I've decided to come back and do some more debating. Now that I'm finally fully retired I will have more time to be here, between naps. : )

Good chapter to start with. The goal as you see is an attempt to distinguish between judgment that God and Christ will do and what we can, or cannot do, through the church. As you see it, what are things we can judge and not judge from I Corinthians 6, and by judge can we as a church impose a penalty or not?

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

Hi, how are you? I've decided to come back and do some more debating. Now that I'm finally fully retired I will have more time to be here, between naps. : )

Hey Dave, I've been retired for a few years now. Welcome to the club.

Good chapter to start with.

What "chapter" is that?

The goal as you see is an attempt to distinguish between judgment that God and Christ will do and what we can, or cannot do, through the church.

Which church? The church of Israel (to whom Jesus preached for years) or the church which is His body (which started with Paul and was revealed by Christ to Paul)?

As you see it, what are things we can judge and not judge from I Corinthians 6, and by judge can we as a church impose a penalty or not?

--Dave

Once you narrow down what you're talking about, we can begin a discussion.

 

[rstrats]

The goal as you see is an attempt to distinguish between judgment that God and Christ will do and what we can, or cannot do...

--Dave

I thought that the Messiah was God.

 

[Right Divider]

I thought that the Messiah was God.

Stop SPAMMING the forums

 

[rstrats]

Stop SPAMMING the forums

Am I thinking incorrectly? Are you saying that John 1:1 got it wrong?

 

[DFT_Dave]

What "chapter" is that?

Which church? The church of Israel (to whom Jesus preached for years) or the church which is His body (which started with Paul and was revealed by Christ to Paul)?

Once you narrow down what you're talking about, we can begin a discussion.

I Corinthians 6 is the chapter I was referring to so I guess we will talk about Paul.

Is there still a church of Israel today distinct from the church of Paul that you describe as "the church which is his body".

 

[Right Divider]

I Corinthians 6 is the chapter I was referring to so I guess we will talk about Paul.

Thanks for the info.

Is there still a church of Israel today distinct from the church of Paul that you describe as "the church which is his body".

God is not dealing with Israel as "His people" today.

And NO, I don't "describe" it that way. The Bible does.

Col 1:18 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.​

​

Col 1:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:24) Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:​

Paul says that he is the first member of this body, as a pattern:

1Tim 1:16 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. ​

 

[Right Divider]

I think that Gemini explains this chapter pretty well.

I asked it this: "What is Paul talking about in 1 Cor 6 in the KJV?"

That this was its response:

In 1 Corinthians 6 (KJV), the Apostle Paul addresses two primary issues within the Corinthian church: legal disputes between believers and the necessity of moral purity. He argues that the internal behavior of the church should reflect their new identity in Christ.​

The chapter is generally divided into three main sections:​

1. Lawsuits Among Believers (Verses 1–8)​

Paul rebukes the members of the church for taking one another to secular courts to settle "matters pertaining to this life."​

• The Logic: Paul argues that since the "saints shall judge the world" and even "judge angels," they should be more than capable of handling small, earthly disputes among themselves.
• The Shame: He suggests it is a "shame" that there isn't one wise man among them to settle these issues.
• The Solution: Paul tells them it would be better to "take wrong" or "suffer yourselves to be defrauded" than to bring a public reproach upon the church by fighting in front of "the unjust" (unbelievers).

2. The Unrighteous and Transformation (Verses 9–11)​

Paul provides a stern warning about who will inherit the Kingdom of God, listing various sins including fornication, idolatry, adultery, and theft.​

• "And such were some of you": This is a key turning point in the chapter. Paul reminds the Corinthians that while they once lived in these sins, they have been "washed," "sanctified," and "justified" in the name of the Lord Jesus. This serves as the basis for his next argument: because they are changed, they must live differently.

3. Christian Liberty and the Body as a Temple (Verses 12–20)​

Paul addresses a specific slogan the Corinthians seem to have been using: "All things are lawful unto me." He counters this by emphasizing that while a Christian has freedom, they should not be "brought under the power of any" habit or sin.​

• Against Fornication: Paul argues that the body is not meant for sexual immorality but "for the Lord." He explains that unlike other sins which are "without the body," sexual sin is a sin against one's own body.
• The Temple of the Holy Ghost: In verses 19–20, Paul delivers the central theme of the section:
  

  "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."​

---

Summary of Paul’s Message: Paul’s overarching point in this chapter is ownership. Because believers have been "bought with a price" (the blood of Christ), their lives, their legal disputes, and their physical bodies no longer belong to them—they belong to God and should be used to glorify Him.​

 

[DFT_Dave]

To Right Divider
I agree with you on what Paul writes in I Corinthians 6.

Which church? The church of Israel (to whom Jesus preached for years) or the church which is His body (which started with Paul and was revealed by Christ to Paul)?

Once you narrow down what you're talking about, we can begin a discussion.

I not sure what you mean by "The church of Israel (to whom Jesus preached for years)."

I thought Jesus preached to the "Nation of Israel", and that the "Temple of Israel" was not the Church of Christ and therefore not the body of Christ.

I would say that there was no such thing as the Church of Israel, unless you know of a verse that uses those exact words.

But now inform / correct me if I am wrong. This would be new to me.

--Thanks Dave

 

[Right Divider]

I not sure what you mean by "The church of Israel (to whom Jesus preached for years)."

I thought Jesus preached to the "Nation of Israel", and that the "Temple of Israel" was not the Church of Christ and therefore not the body of Christ.

I would say that there was no such thing as the Church of Israel, unless you know of a verse that uses those exact words.

Acts 7:38 (AKJV/PCE)​

(7:38) This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:​

But now inform / correct me if I am wrong. This would be new to me.

--Thanks Dave

You're welcome.

P.S. https://theologyonline.com/threads/the-nation-of-israel-vs-the-body-of-christ.61544/post-1925734

 

[DFT_Dave]

• The Nation of Israel: This program was prophesied "since the world began" (Acts 3:21). It was the subject of Old Testament covenants, starting with Abraham, and was the primary focus of the four Gospels and the early chapters of Acts.
• The Body of Christ: This program was a mystery (secret) "hid in God" and "kept secret since the world began" (Rom 16:25, Eph 3:9). It was first revealed to the Apostle Paul after Israel's national rejection of the Messiah (Acts 7–9).
• Acts 7:38 (AKJV/PCE)
  (7:38) This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spoke to him in the mount Sini, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Ok, this seems now to be about Mid Acts, not what I intended but lets continue. I have to make sure I understand this, so I will ask some questions and you can help me to better understand Mid Acts.

Acts 7:37 This is the Moses who said to the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet from your brethren as he raised me up.’ 38 This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living oracles to give to us. RSV

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us. KJV

Is the Apostle Paul referred to in these two verses?

Is the word "church" in the KJV appropriate in vs 38 or is congregation, assembly, or gathering better renderings for the context of Acts 7?

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

Is the Apostle Paul referred to in these two verses?

No, Paul came much later. Not sure what you point is with that question.

Is the word "church" in the KJV appropriate in vs 38 or is congregation, assembly, or gathering better renderings for the context of Acts 7?

The words both mean basically the same thing.

P.S.
Acts 7:38

KJ21
This is he, who in the church in the wilderness was with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers—the one who received the living oracles to give unto us,
ASV
This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us:
AMP
This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles [divine words that still live] to be handed down to you.
AMPC
This is he who in the assembly in the wilderness (desert) was the go-between for the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai and our forefathers, and he received living oracles (words that still live) to be handed down to us.
BRG
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
CSB
He is the one who was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors. He received living oracles to give to us.
CSBA
He is the one who was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors. He received living oracles to give to us.
CEB
This is the one who was in the assembly in the wilderness with our ancestors and with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai. He is the one who received life-giving words to give to us.
CJB
This is the man who was in the assembly in the wilderness, accompanied by the angel that had spoken to him at Mount Sinai and by our fathers, the man who was given living words to pass on to us.
CEV
Moses brought our people together in the desert, and the angel spoke to him on Mount Sinai. There he was given these life-giving words to pass on to us.
DARBY
This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers; who received living oracles to give to us;
DLNT
“This one is the one having been in the congregation in the wilderness, with the angel speaking to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living oracles to give to us—
DRA
This is he that was in the church in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on mount Sina, and with our fathers; who received the words of life to give unto us.
ERV
This same Moses was with the gathering of God’s people in the desert. He was with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and he was with our ancestors. He received life-giving words from God to give to us.
EASY
This is the same Moses who was leader of our people in the wilderness. He was there with our ancestors when the angel spoke to him on Sinai mountain. He received the message from God to give to us. Those words from God bring life to us.
EHV
This is the one who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our fathers. He received living messages to give to us,
ESV
This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us.
ESVUK
This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us.
EXB
This is the Moses who was with the ·gathering of the Israelites [assembly; congregation] in the ·desert [wilderness]. He was with the angel that spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and he was with our ·ancestors [forefathers; fathers]. He received ·commands from God that give life [life-giving messages; or living oracles], and he gave those commands to us [Ex. 19—24].
GNV
This is he that was in the Congregation, in the wilderness with the Angel, which spake to him in mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the lively oracles to give unto us.
GW
This is the Moses who was in the assembly in the desert. Our ancestors and the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai were there with him. Moses received life-giving messages to give to us,
GNT
He is the one who was with the people of Israel assembled in the desert; he was there with our ancestors and with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and he received God's living messages to pass on to us.
HCSB
He is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors. He received living oracles to give to us.
ICB
This is the same Moses who was with the gathering of the Jews in the desert. He was with the angel that spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and he was with our ancestors. He received commands from God that give life, and he gave those commands to us.
ISV
This Moses is the one who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai and to our ancestors. He received living truths to give to us,
PHILLIPS
In that church in the desert this was the man who was the mediator between the angel who used to talk with him on Mount Sinai and our fathers. This was the man who received words, living words, which were to be given to you; and this was the man to whom our forefathers turned a deaf ear! They disregarded him, and in their hearts hankered after Egypt. They said to Aaron, ‘Make us gods to go before us; as for this Moses who brought us out of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.’
JUB
This is he, who was in the congregation {Gr. ekklesia – called out ones} in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him in the Mount Sinai and with our fathers, who received the oracles of life to give unto us;
KJV
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
AKJV
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
LSB
This is the one who, in the congregation in the wilderness, was with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai and with our fathers; the one who received living oracles to pass on to you.
LEB
This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and who with our fathers received living oracles to give to us,
TLB
How true this proved to be, for in the wilderness, Moses was the go-between—the mediator between the people of Israel and the Angel who gave them the Law of God—the Living Word—on Mount Sinai.
MSG
“This is the same Moses whom they earlier rejected, saying, ‘Who put you in charge of us?’ This is the Moses that God, using the angel flaming in the burning bush, sent back as ruler and redeemer. He led them out of their slavery. He did wonderful things, setting up God-signs all through Egypt, down at the Red Sea, and out in the wilderness for forty years. This is the Moses who said to his congregation, ‘God will raise up a prophet just like me from your descendants.’ This is the Moses who stood between the angel speaking at Sinai and your fathers assembled in the wilderness and took the life-giving words given to him and handed them over to us, words our fathers would have nothing to do with. “They craved the old Egyptian ways, whining to Aaron, ‘Make us gods we can see and follow. This Moses who got us out here miles from nowhere—who knows what’s happened to him!’ That was the time when they made a calf-idol, brought sacrifices to it, and congratulated each other on the wonderful religious program they had put together.
MEV
This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living oracles to give to us,
MOUNCE
He is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on · Mount Sinai, and with · our fathers, and he received living oracles to give to us.
NOG
This is the Moses who was in the assembly in the desert. Our ancestors and the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai were there with him. Moses received life-giving messages to give to us,
NABRE
It was he who, in the assembly in the desert, was with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our ancestors, and he received living utterances to hand on to us.
NASB
This is the one who was in the assembly in the wilderness together with the angel who spoke to him at length on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to you.
NASB1995
This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.
NCB
It was he who was in the assembly in the desert with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our ancestors, and who received words of life to hand on to us.
NCV
This is the Moses who was with the gathering of the Israelites in the desert. He was with the angel that spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and he was with our ancestors. He received commands from God that give life, and he gave those commands to us.
NET
This is the man who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors, and he received living oracles to give to you.
NIRV
Moses was with the Israelites in the desert. He was with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai. Moses was with our people of long ago. He received living words to pass on to us.
NIV
He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.
NIVUK
He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.
NKJV
“This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us,
NLV
This is the man who was with the Jewish nation in the desert. The angel talked to him on Mount Sinai. Moses told it to our early fathers. He also received the living Words of God to give to us.
NLT
Moses was with our ancestors, the assembly of God’s people in the wilderness, when the angel spoke to him at Mount Sinai. And there Moses received life-giving words to pass on to us.
NMB
This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel, who spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our fathers. This man received the word of life to give to us –
NRSVA
He is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living oracles to give to us.
NRSVACE
He is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living oracles to give to us.
NRSVCE
He is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living oracles to give to us.
NRSVUE
He is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai and with our ancestors, and he received living oracles to give to us.
NTFE
And this is the one who was in the assembly in the desert with the angel who had spoken to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to give to us.
OJB
"This is the one having been in the kahal (assembly) in the midbar together with the malach speaking to him at the mountain of Sinai, who was with Avoteinu; he is the one who received torat chayyim to give to us. [SHEMOT 19:17; VAYIKRA 27:34; DEVARIM 32:45-47]
RGT
“This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness, with the Angel which spoke to him on mount Sinai, and with our fathers who received the living oracles to give to us;
RSV
This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living oracles to give to us.
RSVCE
This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living oracles to give to us.
TLV
“This is the one who was in the community in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He received living words to pass on to us.
VOICE
This is the same one who led the people to Mount Sinai, where a heavenly messenger spoke to him and our ancestors, and who received the living message of God to give to us.
WEB
This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living revelations to give to us,
WE
This is the same Moses who was with God's people in the wilderness at the hill called Mount Sinai. He was with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers of long ago . It was he who received the words of life to give to us.
WYC
This it is [This is], that was in the church in wilderness, with the angel that spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers; which took words of life to give to us.
YLT
`This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the messenger who is speaking to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers who did receive the living oracles to give to us;
Acts 7:37
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Acts 7:39
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[DFT_Dave]

Where does it say; (Rom 16:25, Eph 3:9). It was first revealed to the Apostle Paul after Israel's national rejection of the Messiah (Acts 7–9)?

Bold only phrase.

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

Where does it say; (Rom 16:25, Eph 3:9). It was first revealed to the Apostle Paul after Israel's national rejection of the Messiah (Acts 7–9)?

Bold only phrase.

--Dave

1Ti 1:16 (KJV) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.