Convince Me!
- Thread starter chair
- Start date
- Status
Mustard Seed
New member
chair said:
By the answer they get or don't get. If God doesn't seem to answer you then there are several options to chose from--
1) God doesn't care (justice)
2) God can't (which would throw the whole omnipotence thing into question)
3) You are not asking the way God wants you to
4) God, being omniscient, may find some aspect of your motivation or driving desire in asking and may not wish to condemn you by providing you with more knowledge, and thusly more accountability
5) God's non-answer is a negative for the specific thing you asked about.
Perhaps you can think of other possible reasons for a non-answer, an atheist would posit the lack of existance of God. Basically, if you're any kind of a theist you can only come to such a conclusion based on some subjective judgement that's not essentially different from taking the very test I posit here. As you seem to believe in the God of Israel with your Jewish perspective I imagine you've already made subjective determinations of the very kind you placed as being an excuse for not trying this experiment.
So, not wanting to press you where you don't want to be pressed, but wishing to say things as they are seen by me, I say that the only kind of proof you could ever get on any question dealing with the subject you are asking would be subjectively based, and hence would provide an environment in which the test I've proposed, though not empirical or interpersonal (you can't share it really with anyone else--just between you and God) it's still a valid experiment in terms of deductive reasoning. All systems we apply deductive reasoning to demand assumptions be made at some level. That's where the subjective material unavoidably enters to a degree.
So bypass my proposition if you wish. I just think it's silly to expect proof in a situation in which actual real experimentation on your part is excluded from the picture simply because the initial proposition is 'silly'.
Perhaps you can explain a better method for finding the divine and coming to know of it's certainty and specificity to a sufficient level for it to benefit a human.
Mustard Seed
New member
BTW--
simply because different people claim to have different results doesn't mean the test is invalid. It may simply be due to a lack of consistant testing conditions or proper experimentation similarities between claiming investigators.
Do you believe in God?
If so then how?
If other people have witnessed, or think they have witnessed, the same circumstances used in your 'how' explanation and still come to a divergent conclusion does that make your belief less valid or ultimately true?
simply because different people claim to have different results doesn't mean the test is invalid. It may simply be due to a lack of consistant testing conditions or proper experimentation similarities between claiming investigators.
Do you believe in God?
If so then how?
If other people have witnessed, or think they have witnessed, the same circumstances used in your 'how' explanation and still come to a divergent conclusion does that make your belief less valid or ultimately true?
Hello chair,
Sorry I didn't get back with you sooner, but Tuesdays are busy for me right now. Thank
you for reading and then posting to help me avoid repeating what you've gone through
before.
1) You're right. The Bible doesn't mention who this is, just a servant of God. I asked you
to read these verses not to say this is Messiah, but to say that God's servant bore the
sin of many and interceded for the transgressors (sinners). The main reason I had you
read this now was to point out that to God, the sin issue has to be resolved and that He
would provide His own servant as a resolutioin to that issue.
2) If you want to accept that this is Messiah, that the New Testament is true and that
Jesus is Messiah, God bless you and this would be a really short discussion. I don't
and won't assume that you would accept this.
I won't insult your intelligence or mine. If I'm not mistaken, you, like me, want more than
a man's word to accept something as truth. At this time, I wouldn't try to argue that this
is the Messiah, because the Bible doesn't say it is. It doesn't say this is Jesus either,
this says that this (Is. 52:13) is God's servant. For me to say "if it isn't Jesus, who is it?"
would be showing my ignorance of the Bible. The Bible doesn't name who this is and
neither will I. (I'm wanting to you to tell me who it is, that's why I accepted your
challenge.
I reread Isaiah 10 through Isaiah 12 in order to get context ( remember, everything in
context), and find that this is prophesy. A wonderful prophesy that we are still waiting for.
Yes I believe that this is a Messianic prophesy as does Jews for Judism.com. We read
in Is. 11:1 that a shoot will come form the stump of Jesse. Messiah will be a decendant
of Jesse. As we read further in verse 10 "In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a
banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious."
I'll come back to that point later. As to do I honestly believe that this refers to Jesus,
I'll answer that a little later in another post. I'm not going to draw any conclusions before
I've presented the case you asked for.
Next, I ask you to read Isaiah 9 verses 1 through 7. Is this a Messianic prophesy? We'll
discuss this a little further tomorrow. Thursdays are an easy day for me. I have 6 hours
to catch up on TOL and all the threads I've been posting to. We'll discuss verses 6 and 7
in a little more detail.
God bless you.
Sorry I didn't get back with you sooner, but Tuesdays are busy for me right now. Thank
you for reading and then posting to help me avoid repeating what you've gone through
before.
1) You're right. The Bible doesn't mention who this is, just a servant of God. I asked you
to read these verses not to say this is Messiah, but to say that God's servant bore the
sin of many and interceded for the transgressors (sinners). The main reason I had you
read this now was to point out that to God, the sin issue has to be resolved and that He
would provide His own servant as a resolutioin to that issue.
2) If you want to accept that this is Messiah, that the New Testament is true and that
Jesus is Messiah, God bless you and this would be a really short discussion. I don't
and won't assume that you would accept this.
I won't insult your intelligence or mine. If I'm not mistaken, you, like me, want more than
a man's word to accept something as truth. At this time, I wouldn't try to argue that this
is the Messiah, because the Bible doesn't say it is. It doesn't say this is Jesus either,
this says that this (Is. 52:13) is God's servant. For me to say "if it isn't Jesus, who is it?"
would be showing my ignorance of the Bible. The Bible doesn't name who this is and
neither will I. (I'm wanting to you to tell me who it is, that's why I accepted your
challenge.
I reread Isaiah 10 through Isaiah 12 in order to get context ( remember, everything in
context), and find that this is prophesy. A wonderful prophesy that we are still waiting for.
Yes I believe that this is a Messianic prophesy as does Jews for Judism.com. We read
in Is. 11:1 that a shoot will come form the stump of Jesse. Messiah will be a decendant
of Jesse. As we read further in verse 10 "In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a
banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious."
I'll come back to that point later. As to do I honestly believe that this refers to Jesus,
I'll answer that a little later in another post. I'm not going to draw any conclusions before
I've presented the case you asked for.
Next, I ask you to read Isaiah 9 verses 1 through 7. Is this a Messianic prophesy? We'll
discuss this a little further tomorrow. Thursdays are an easy day for me. I have 6 hours
to catch up on TOL and all the threads I've been posting to. We'll discuss verses 6 and 7
in a little more detail.
God bless you.
PKevman
New member
daddyugi said:Hello chair,
Sorry I didn't get back with you sooner, but Tuesdays are busy for me right now. Thank
you for reading and then posting to help me avoid repeating what you've gone through
before.
1) You're right. The Bible doesn't mention who this is, just a servant of God. I asked you
to read these verses not to say this is Messiah, but to say that God's servant bore the
sin of many and interceded for the transgressors (sinners). The main reason I had you
read this now was to point out that to God, the sin issue has to be resolved and that He
would provide His own servant as a resolutioin to that issue.
2) If you want to accept that this is Messiah, that the New Testament is true and that
Jesus is Messiah, God bless you and this would be a really short discussion. I don't
and won't assume that you would accept this.
I won't insult your intelligence or mine. If I'm not mistaken, you, like me, want more than
a man's word to accept something as truth. At this time, I wouldn't try to argue that this
is the Messiah, because the Bible doesn't say it is. It doesn't say this is Jesus either,
this says that this (Is. 52:13) is God's servant. For me to say "if it isn't Jesus, who is it?"
would be showing my ignorance of the Bible. The Bible doesn't name who this is and
neither will I. (I'm wanting to you to tell me who it is, that's why I accepted your
challenge.
I reread Isaiah 10 through Isaiah 12 in order to get context ( remember, everything in
context), and find that this is prophesy. A wonderful prophesy that we are still waiting for.
Yes I believe that this is a Messianic prophesy as does Jews for Judism.com. We read
in Is. 11:1 that a shoot will come form the stump of Jesse. Messiah will be a decendant
of Jesse. As we read further in verse 10 "In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a
banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious."
I'll come back to that point later. As to do I honestly believe that this refers to Jesus,
I'll answer that a little later in another post. I'm not going to draw any conclusions before
I've presented the case you asked for.
Next, I ask you to read Isaiah 9 verses 1 through 7. Is this a Messianic prophesy? We'll
discuss this a little further tomorrow. Thursdays are an easy day for me. I have 6 hours
to catch up on TOL and all the threads I've been posting to. We'll discuss verses 6 and 7
in a little more detail.
God bless you.
I am not going to take the "chair challenge" as outlined by you. I am simply going to state some things that Christianity is not, from a Messianic Christian perspective.
Christianity is not a religion that is to convert by the sword. but it has.
It is not a religion that is to persecute the Jews, but it has.
It is not a religion that is contrary to the Torah, but it is, even to this day.
In fact it is not a religion at all, it is a revelation of God, and His redemption and His love for all mankind, as told through the life and death, burial and Resurrection, of Yeshua Hamashiach; because there was not a "law" that could impart life.
Now, what it is.
Yeshua did not come to restore the Kingdom to Israel in the first Century. This was the great mystery that not even Satan and all the principalities of this world understood. If they had of understood the mystery, they would not have had Him put to death.
The first century people expected Messiah at this time, and thought that He was coming to restore Israel, to at least the power of the Davidic and Solomonic Kingdom. Therefore the Sadducees and Pharisees saw Him as a threat to their power. Satan thought that if he killed the King's Son, then there would never again be a Kingdom of Israel, and he would have control over that kingdom, and people as well.
By having a "phony" Sanhedrin court, and high priest {Not Aaronic}, accuse Yeshua of being a blasphemer, worthy of death, as well as a Torah and Sabbath, breaker, Satan and "all" of mankind thought it was "right" that Yeshua die. Yeshua died willingly knowing that it would mean our freedom, in Him.
By sinning back in the Garden of Eden, the "title deed" or dominion over this world was lost by man, and taken by Satan. By killing a sinless man, who was actually the Son of God, the Lord of the Sabbath, or Word of God, or Torah, made flesh, Satan then lost that deed to Yeshua.
Rather than take full possession of the earth at that time, Yeshua ascended into heaven, and left the "Church" with the Great commission to baptize believers in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Thus the battle now is over the "title deed" of men's souls, not the earth, or the Kingdom of Israel. We will either bear the mark of God, or bear the mark of Satan, when Yeshua returns.
When He returns, He will be bringing the Kingdom, down from heaven, to Jerusalem. Then He will be the Messiah Ben David, that the Orthodox Jews were expecting in the first century and are still awaiting 2000 years later. We also are waiting, who believe He is coming for a "second" time to Israel and Jerusalem. Then all the nations will come and worship the King on the throne of David in Israel. Then Israel will have her glory restored, and her promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as well as David, fulfilled
This Kingdom will be far more glorious then what was even hoped for, or expected. Plus, it will include the gentiles: People from every tribe, and tongue, and nation. This is, and always was, God's plan; to save all mankind through the nation Israel, and His Son.
The New Covenant is not in full effect yet. Men still need to be taught about God, and men do not love each other as themselves, nor God with all their being, yet. We do have the Spirit as the earnest of that Covenant, described in the Torah and prophets. And we do have faith, hope and love, the fruit, and the gifts, of the Spirit as described in the New Testament Scriptures.
Chair, I know that as an Orthodox Jew, you believe in God. I do not know how much of the N.T. that you have read or understand. Therefore I took the time to write the "gospel" and "mystery" of Messiah Ben Yosef, Yeshua Hamashiach, as briefly and succinctly as possible in story form, without quoting texts. This is from a Sabbath observant and Torah observant messianic congregation's perspective. It is NOT from a mainline Christian denomination, which may express some of this "story" form, quite differently.
Shalom in your Sukkot?
Christianity is not a religion that is to convert by the sword. but it has.
It is not a religion that is to persecute the Jews, but it has.
It is not a religion that is contrary to the Torah, but it is, even to this day.
In fact it is not a religion at all, it is a revelation of God, and His redemption and His love for all mankind, as told through the life and death, burial and Resurrection, of Yeshua Hamashiach; because there was not a "law" that could impart life.
Now, what it is.
Yeshua did not come to restore the Kingdom to Israel in the first Century. This was the great mystery that not even Satan and all the principalities of this world understood. If they had of understood the mystery, they would not have had Him put to death.
The first century people expected Messiah at this time, and thought that He was coming to restore Israel, to at least the power of the Davidic and Solomonic Kingdom. Therefore the Sadducees and Pharisees saw Him as a threat to their power. Satan thought that if he killed the King's Son, then there would never again be a Kingdom of Israel, and he would have control over that kingdom, and people as well.
By having a "phony" Sanhedrin court, and high priest {Not Aaronic}, accuse Yeshua of being a blasphemer, worthy of death, as well as a Torah and Sabbath, breaker, Satan and "all" of mankind thought it was "right" that Yeshua die. Yeshua died willingly knowing that it would mean our freedom, in Him.
By sinning back in the Garden of Eden, the "title deed" or dominion over this world was lost by man, and taken by Satan. By killing a sinless man, who was actually the Son of God, the Lord of the Sabbath, or Word of God, or Torah, made flesh, Satan then lost that deed to Yeshua.
Rather than take full possession of the earth at that time, Yeshua ascended into heaven, and left the "Church" with the Great commission to baptize believers in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Thus the battle now is over the "title deed" of men's souls, not the earth, or the Kingdom of Israel. We will either bear the mark of God, or bear the mark of Satan, when Yeshua returns.
When He returns, He will be bringing the Kingdom, down from heaven, to Jerusalem. Then He will be the Messiah Ben David, that the Orthodox Jews were expecting in the first century and are still awaiting 2000 years later. We also are waiting, who believe He is coming for a "second" time to Israel and Jerusalem. Then all the nations will come and worship the King on the throne of David in Israel. Then Israel will have her glory restored, and her promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as well as David, fulfilled
This Kingdom will be far more glorious then what was even hoped for, or expected. Plus, it will include the gentiles: People from every tribe, and tongue, and nation. This is, and always was, God's plan; to save all mankind through the nation Israel, and His Son.
The New Covenant is not in full effect yet. Men still need to be taught about God, and men do not love each other as themselves, nor God with all their being, yet. We do have the Spirit as the earnest of that Covenant, described in the Torah and prophets. And we do have faith, hope and love, the fruit, and the gifts, of the Spirit as described in the New Testament Scriptures.
Chair, I know that as an Orthodox Jew, you believe in God. I do not know how much of the N.T. that you have read or understand. Therefore I took the time to write the "gospel" and "mystery" of Messiah Ben Yosef, Yeshua Hamashiach, as briefly and succinctly as possible in story form, without quoting texts. This is from a Sabbath observant and Torah observant messianic congregation's perspective. It is NOT from a mainline Christian denomination, which may express some of this "story" form, quite differently.
Shalom in your Sukkot?
daddyugi said:Hello chair,
Sorry I didn't get back with you sooner, but Tuesdays are busy for me right now. Thank
you for reading and then posting to help me avoid repeating what you've gone through
before.
1) You're right. The Bible doesn't mention who this is, just a servant of God. I asked you
to read these verses not to say this is Messiah, but to say that God's servant bore the
sin of many and interceded for the transgressors (sinners). The main reason I had you
read this now was to point out that to God, the sin issue has to be resolved and that He
would provide His own servant as a resolutioin to that issue.
2) If you want to accept that this is Messiah, that the New Testament is true and that
Jesus is Messiah, God bless you and this would be a really short discussion. I don't
and won't assume that you would accept this.
I won't insult your intelligence or mine. If I'm not mistaken, you, like me, want more than
a man's word to accept something as truth. At this time, I wouldn't try to argue that this
is the Messiah, because the Bible doesn't say it is. It doesn't say this is Jesus either,
this says that this (Is. 52:13) is God's servant. For me to say "if it isn't Jesus, who is it?"
would be showing my ignorance of the Bible. The Bible doesn't name who this is and
neither will I. (I'm wanting to you to tell me who it is, that's why I accepted your
challenge.
I reread Isaiah 10 through Isaiah 12 in order to get context ( remember, everything in
context), and find that this is prophesy. A wonderful prophesy that we are still waiting for.
Yes I believe that this is a Messianic prophesy as does Jews for Judism.com. We read
in Is. 11:1 that a shoot will come form the stump of Jesse. Messiah will be a decendant
of Jesse. As we read further in verse 10 "In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a
banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious."
I'll come back to that point later. As to do I honestly believe that this refers to Jesus,
I'll answer that a little later in another post. I'm not going to draw any conclusions before
I've presented the case you asked for.
Next, I ask you to read Isaiah 9 verses 1 through 7. Is this a Messianic prophesy? We'll
discuss this a little further tomorrow. Thursdays are an easy day for me. I have 6 hours
to catch up on TOL and all the threads I've been posting to. We'll discuss verses 6 and 7
in a little more detail.
God bless you.
Read it (not for the first time). It seems Messianic in nature.
Hello chair,
I'm glad you agree that it seems Messianic in nature, indeed, a lot of Isaiah seems to be
filled with Messianic messages. One of the reasons is, like I've said before, everything is
to be taken in context. In Isaiah chapter 6, we see Isaiah's vision of God and it terrified
him. If we really see God as He is in this text, it should terrify us as well. Isaiah see
God as the angels see Him, Holy, Holy, Holy. He falls on his face and exclaims that he
is ruined. In our language, he'd be saying "I am so screwed" because of his sin and the
sin of his nation and because he had seen the King (not Elvis), and the LORD of hosts.
We see an angel take an ember from the alter and lay it on Isaiah's lips and tells him that
his iniquities is taken away and his sin forgiven. Then God speaks. "Whom shall I send
and who will go for Us?" Isaiah's response is "Here am I. Send me", and that is what
God did. God sent Isaiah to be His mouthpiece and He didn't just stop with the end of
Chapter 6. Isaiah continued to be God's mouthpiece giving prophesy for God and a big
portion of the prophesy was about the Messiah, the Redeemer of Isreal and of the world.
The context in Isaiah doesn't just start and stop with one or two verses. Isaiah is
continuing on from chapter to chapter so they are tied together. We see references as to
what is going to happen in the future, we see references to Messiah, we see times of
great trial and times of great Messianic conquests. They are woven throughout Isaiah
for a reason. Most of Isaiah is prophesy and we find Messiah in the midst of it.
I want to point your attention to chapter 11 again. We are told that Messiah will come
out of the stump of Jesse in verse 1 and that the "Root of Jesse will stand as a banner
for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious", in verse
10. We see that Messiah is both the Root of Jesse and the shoot of Jesse. That brings
up the question "How can Messiah be both the Root and the shoot?" You might not
agree with the answer, I understand that most Jew don't believe that Messiah is Divine,
but if you look at Chapter 9 and verse 6 you'll see what I'm talking about. The Messiah
will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
I want you to think about this for a little while.
God bless you.
I'm glad you agree that it seems Messianic in nature, indeed, a lot of Isaiah seems to be
filled with Messianic messages. One of the reasons is, like I've said before, everything is
to be taken in context. In Isaiah chapter 6, we see Isaiah's vision of God and it terrified
him. If we really see God as He is in this text, it should terrify us as well. Isaiah see
God as the angels see Him, Holy, Holy, Holy. He falls on his face and exclaims that he
is ruined. In our language, he'd be saying "I am so screwed" because of his sin and the
sin of his nation and because he had seen the King (not Elvis), and the LORD of hosts.
We see an angel take an ember from the alter and lay it on Isaiah's lips and tells him that
his iniquities is taken away and his sin forgiven. Then God speaks. "Whom shall I send
and who will go for Us?" Isaiah's response is "Here am I. Send me", and that is what
God did. God sent Isaiah to be His mouthpiece and He didn't just stop with the end of
Chapter 6. Isaiah continued to be God's mouthpiece giving prophesy for God and a big
portion of the prophesy was about the Messiah, the Redeemer of Isreal and of the world.
The context in Isaiah doesn't just start and stop with one or two verses. Isaiah is
continuing on from chapter to chapter so they are tied together. We see references as to
what is going to happen in the future, we see references to Messiah, we see times of
great trial and times of great Messianic conquests. They are woven throughout Isaiah
for a reason. Most of Isaiah is prophesy and we find Messiah in the midst of it.
I want to point your attention to chapter 11 again. We are told that Messiah will come
out of the stump of Jesse in verse 1 and that the "Root of Jesse will stand as a banner
for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious", in verse
10. We see that Messiah is both the Root of Jesse and the shoot of Jesse. That brings
up the question "How can Messiah be both the Root and the shoot?" You might not
agree with the answer, I understand that most Jew don't believe that Messiah is Divine,
but if you look at Chapter 9 and verse 6 you'll see what I'm talking about. The Messiah
will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
I want you to think about this for a little while.
God bless you.
daddyugi said:
Well, let's see what we have so far.
We have Isaiah 53, which I maintain is not Messianic at all.
We have the fact that Isaiah the prophet actually made prophecies, which is not surprising.
Some of Isaiah's prophecies have to deal with the Messianic age - agreed. But it is not the overpowering theme of Isaiah. There are many chapters that deal with political events in his time and moral issues as well.
I believe that I pointed out Chapter 11 to you. Chapter 11 of Isaiah does talk about a Messianic figure. In the begining we read of the Messiah being a shoot out of the trunk of Jesse. In verse 10 the term used is root. This is poetic language, and I am not sure how you want to use this to prove anything. You should spell this out, since it is really not obvious to me.
Chapter 11 does not stop there. This is where I have a big problem with the Isaiah proofs of Jesus. Read verses 11 till the end of the chapter. I have, and it is Messianic in nature, and Jesus does not fit the bill (yes, I know that the second coming is supposed to take care of that, but that will only convince the convinced). Not only that, but the Messiah in this chapter has nothing to do with the Christian concept of the Messiah at all. He is going to do tremendous things for the Jews, and be a banner for the nations etc. Where is his crucifixion? Where does his death atone for sins? Where is original sin? Not here.
Chapter 9 verse 6 is a popular one in these discussions. Here it is! The Messiah has names that sound like god-names! Therefore, he must be God! Hurray!
Well, frankly, it is not that convincing. Why are these important things hidden in these hints, buried in Isaiah? But there is another big problem with this. Hebrew names (even "Isaiah") often include reference to God. This is true of my own name - Joel, as well.
In fact, I personally know people with two of the names that Isaiah mentions (Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace), and none of them are God. By the way, the translation of Avi-Ad to Everlasting Father is a pretty lousy translation. It should be more like - "My Father is Everlasting", which is not a name God would have (well, I suppose that Christian theory can handle this by splitting up God, but remember that I am not Christian).
In short, so far you have not shown me anything that I haven't seen before, and nothing particularly convincing.
I do have two requests:
Please spell out what you think verses prove. Don't assume that I see them the way you do, or that they are obvious.
I plan on leaving this forum at the end of the month (I am wasting too much time at it), so let's try to move this along.
Thanks
chair said:
To chair and others who are planning to discuss verses with him concerning the Messiah:
Since you plan on leaving at the end of the month, I think this site would be most worth the study, and speed things up. www.hadavar.org/antimissionary.html
Because chair reads the Bible in Hebrew and most of us do not, we need to refer to people who also read Hebrew fluently, and also believe that Yeshua is the Messiah. The site states both positions, and shows how to counter "antimissionary" arguments.
Coming from a messianic congregation I am aware of how Orthodox Jews interpret many of what are clear messianic passages to us, and are actually quoted by Yeshua and the apostles as referring to Him {Himself}.
I am also aware of how they quote more modern rabbis in deference to the ancient rabbis when they conflict on the messianic interpretation of a passage.
I am also aware that they have excluded Isaiah 53 and several other prophetic passages from the modern haftarah readings on Shabbat. Readings which were used prior to the New Testament writings, and then coincidentally,and systematically excluded, by most synagogues. Isaiah 61;1-2 is another example of many.
This site does a lot of the legwork that would have to be done by reading, or sifting through, all of the Talmud, which includes the ancient rabbis messianic commentaries.
YourThrone
New member
mighty_duck said:
Forgive me for just jumping right in:
How do you know that there's a heaven? Christians believe there's a heaven and hell after you die, now most people would consider this planet hell because of all the diseases, kids dying, drugs, crime, people being murdered and so fourth.
Do you actually believe God would have made two hells? Is it just remotely possible or probable that earth is hell and once you die, it's heaven?
chair said:
Yes, I agree it is a well laid out site. I think that they were quite clear that they present the views of a particular anti missionary Jew who used the stated arguments to dissuade other Jews from believing in Yeshua as Messiah.
The worst you could say is that they present the viewpoint of one Jewish man, who was working in concert with many others of the Jewish faith. He has since become a messianic and "lets us in" on the arguments, that he, and supposedly many others used, and are still using. I know, because I hear them often myself from orthodox and conservative Jews.
I think your use of the word "attack" is understandable but one could also see it as a "defense under fire".
When I read orthodox Jewish sites that "defend" their beliefs and "attack" Christianity, I seldom see them as "even handed". Perhaps you could give us a website that is.
This one, Ha Davar, is about as even handed as I know of, on my side of our beliefs.
jeremiah said:
I doubt that an even-handed site exists. Why would it? Who who put up such a site? So I think that you have to look at seperate sites with the two viewpoints. The lack of first-hand knowledge of Hebrew on the Christian side will always be a weak point.
Jews, including myself, think of ourselves as being under attack by these groups for the simple reason that "Messianic Jew" organizations are missionary groups out to draw Jews away from their own faith into a form of Christianity. Yes, I know that they claim to be really Jewish, even the only true Jews, but that is their own claim, not how the Jewish community views them. In fact, their pretense that they are in fact "Jewish" is even more upsetting in my mind, since it is so dishonest.
mighty_duck
New member
Hi YourThrone,YourThrone said:
Two things should have tipped you off that I don't really stand behind those arguments.
1. The use of pseudo html : [/sarcasm]
2. The title "atheist" next to my name.
But not surprisingly, others have made these arguments on this thread in earnest..
With my sarcastic hat on again, I'd say I know there's a heaven because the Bible says so, and the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Are you saying God would lie? Should I take God's word or yours?
And this world is not even close to hell, there is love, beauty, and the ability to have a relationship with God here. Judging by your post, you will learn what hell is really like soon enough. It is not too late to repent though, become a Christian instead of a Christian(other).
With my sarcastic hat off, these are terrible arguments, made even worse by how much they are repeated here.
Hello chair,
I'll review my points. In Isaiah 53 which you don't believe is Messianic, I pointed out that God has to have sin dealt with.
His unnamed servant dies for the sin of many. The sacrifice was set up to forgive sins and in the Bible (Old Testament) we
find that animals are sacrificed, but here we see the sacrifice is God's servant. I have read many times at many websites
that this is talking about Israel, but if you read verse 8, you find that he was cut off and he had no descendants. If this is about
Israel, then when Messiah comes, who will he rule? So, this verse can not be about Israel, but about God's sacrificing His
servant for the sin of many. What sin is this verse talking about? What is sin? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Judaism
defines sin to be a violation of divine commandment.. I asked you earlier if you ever had to teach children to sin. Well, the
answer to that question is no. You can't get around this, there is an inherited sin nature. Everyone of your and my ancestors
sinned, we sin, and our descendants will sin.
You are the one who pointed out Isaiah Chapter 11, I did not mean to make it sound like I did, I was just trying to direct your attention back to that chapter. I never said that Messiah's crucifixion was found here, I never said that we find
atonement for sin here, and I never said anything about original sin being found here. I was unaware that vs 10 was poetic,
but since I'm not familiar with the Hebrew language, it's not surprising. However, what I wanted to point out was what if my
studying of the Hebrew words for root (sheresh - a root (literal and figurative) and shoot (choter - a twig) was true. What if
Isaiah was really saying that the root that grows out of the stump of Jesse (the Messiah) is also the root of Jesse. This is what
I want you to consider "Messiah was around before Jesse and will be around after Jesse." What if Isaiah wasn't being poetic
but was being literal, after all, he would know, he was a prophet of God. I'm not asking you to accept this, just consider it.
I have read the rest of the chapter and, actually, the Christian view of Messiah does accept this as part of the chapter. We
believe that when Messiah returns, he will make war the the Beast, False Prophet and all the armies assembled against Him.
Chapter 9 - I was under the impression that Ab-Ad was the translation for Everlasting Father, but I like your translation even
better. The Messiah being called "my Father is Everlasting" sound a lot more like the son of God to me. Thanks for pointing
that out to me. And, yes, a lot of Christian do point to this Scripture, and that was my intention until I read you post. What I
would like to point out to you now is verse 7. In particular, the fact that when Messiah comes and establishes his kingdom,
he will rule from that time on forever, meaning that he will not die. If Messiah is just a man, he would not live forever. Even
God's servant Moses didn't live forever.
OK, I'd like you to read Genesis 49:8-10. Jacob is blessing his children and he comes to Judah, his fourth. Judah's life was not exactly exemplary. He wanted to kill Joseph and when they wouldn't kill him, Judah wanted to sell him. He later
had sexual relations with his daughter-in-law whom he thought was a prostitute(Genesis 47 and 48). We still see that
Judah was given rulership and that Shiloh would come through him and his descendants. As we read Genesis 49:10 we
see "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes, And to him
shall be the obedience of the people." My understanding of the scepter is the identity of the tribe and the ability to have
the right to apply and enforce the Mosaic law including the right to carry out capitol punishment. Israel lost the right to carry
out capitol punishment sometime around 6-7 A.D. when Caponius, a Roman Procurator, was put in the position of authority
after King Herod's son was dethroned. The fact that Israel lost that right was mentioned by both Josephus and the Talmud.
By 70 A.D., we see all semblance of a national identity was gone after the Temple was destroyed. Now, the only way this
prophesy could be fulfilled is for Messiah to come before Israel lost its ability to rule themselves and carry out capitol
punishment. For centuries after the assension of Caponius, Israel had no sovereignty and no self rule until 1948. We talking
almost 19 centuries that Israel didn't have it septer. The only way this prophesy to be true is for Shiloh (Messiah) to have
come before 6-7 A.D. Now I will bring Jesus into the picture. Jesus would have been around the age of 10-11 at the time
that Israel lost it's sovereignty, lost its scepter. I'll stop there and wait for your reply.
God bless you.
I'll review my points. In Isaiah 53 which you don't believe is Messianic, I pointed out that God has to have sin dealt with.
His unnamed servant dies for the sin of many. The sacrifice was set up to forgive sins and in the Bible (Old Testament) we
find that animals are sacrificed, but here we see the sacrifice is God's servant. I have read many times at many websites
that this is talking about Israel, but if you read verse 8, you find that he was cut off and he had no descendants. If this is about
Israel, then when Messiah comes, who will he rule? So, this verse can not be about Israel, but about God's sacrificing His
servant for the sin of many. What sin is this verse talking about? What is sin? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Judaism
defines sin to be a violation of divine commandment.. I asked you earlier if you ever had to teach children to sin. Well, the
answer to that question is no. You can't get around this, there is an inherited sin nature. Everyone of your and my ancestors
sinned, we sin, and our descendants will sin.
You are the one who pointed out Isaiah Chapter 11, I did not mean to make it sound like I did, I was just trying to direct your attention back to that chapter. I never said that Messiah's crucifixion was found here, I never said that we find
atonement for sin here, and I never said anything about original sin being found here. I was unaware that vs 10 was poetic,
but since I'm not familiar with the Hebrew language, it's not surprising. However, what I wanted to point out was what if my
studying of the Hebrew words for root (sheresh - a root (literal and figurative) and shoot (choter - a twig) was true. What if
Isaiah was really saying that the root that grows out of the stump of Jesse (the Messiah) is also the root of Jesse. This is what
I want you to consider "Messiah was around before Jesse and will be around after Jesse." What if Isaiah wasn't being poetic
but was being literal, after all, he would know, he was a prophet of God. I'm not asking you to accept this, just consider it.
I have read the rest of the chapter and, actually, the Christian view of Messiah does accept this as part of the chapter. We
believe that when Messiah returns, he will make war the the Beast, False Prophet and all the armies assembled against Him.
Chapter 9 - I was under the impression that Ab-Ad was the translation for Everlasting Father, but I like your translation even
better. The Messiah being called "my Father is Everlasting" sound a lot more like the son of God to me. Thanks for pointing
that out to me. And, yes, a lot of Christian do point to this Scripture, and that was my intention until I read you post. What I
would like to point out to you now is verse 7. In particular, the fact that when Messiah comes and establishes his kingdom,
he will rule from that time on forever, meaning that he will not die. If Messiah is just a man, he would not live forever. Even
God's servant Moses didn't live forever.
OK, I'd like you to read Genesis 49:8-10. Jacob is blessing his children and he comes to Judah, his fourth. Judah's life was not exactly exemplary. He wanted to kill Joseph and when they wouldn't kill him, Judah wanted to sell him. He later
had sexual relations with his daughter-in-law whom he thought was a prostitute(Genesis 47 and 48). We still see that
Judah was given rulership and that Shiloh would come through him and his descendants. As we read Genesis 49:10 we
see "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes, And to him
shall be the obedience of the people." My understanding of the scepter is the identity of the tribe and the ability to have
the right to apply and enforce the Mosaic law including the right to carry out capitol punishment. Israel lost the right to carry
out capitol punishment sometime around 6-7 A.D. when Caponius, a Roman Procurator, was put in the position of authority
after King Herod's son was dethroned. The fact that Israel lost that right was mentioned by both Josephus and the Talmud.
By 70 A.D., we see all semblance of a national identity was gone after the Temple was destroyed. Now, the only way this
prophesy could be fulfilled is for Messiah to come before Israel lost its ability to rule themselves and carry out capitol
punishment. For centuries after the assension of Caponius, Israel had no sovereignty and no self rule until 1948. We talking
almost 19 centuries that Israel didn't have it septer. The only way this prophesy to be true is for Shiloh (Messiah) to have
come before 6-7 A.D. Now I will bring Jesus into the picture. Jesus would have been around the age of 10-11 at the time
that Israel lost it's sovereignty, lost its scepter. I'll stop there and wait for your reply.
God bless you.
amosman
New member
chair said:
I would not except a Messiah that done away with Torah either. The True Messiah would
never say the Torah is now old and useless.
However I do believe that the man that was crucified on a tree 1975 years ago was The Holy One Of Israel. The Torah makes it clear that blood must be spilt to attone for sin.
I would think as a Jew you would agree that transgresstion of Torah is sin. So we need a
sacrifice acceptable to YHVH to cover our sin. Just as YHVH profided a ram to Abraham
in place of Isaac, so YHVH provided the only sacrifice that could attone for the sins of
so many.
The christian church has completely paganized The Messiah. If I were you I would not believe a word they say. If you will read the New Testament with a Hebrew mind set and remember that the translators hated jews. So use that Strongs and other resources to get through their bias.
If you do come to the understanding that Yeshua is the Messiah, whatever you do don't join one of those pagan christian churchs. Just be the best Jew you can be, that's what Yeshua did.
daddyugi said:
All that you have done, and continue doing, is to show that Christians are capable of interpreting the Hebrew Bible in a way that matches their theology. I know that to be the case, though I think their "interpretation" is closer to "twisting" than anything else.
I'll address a few of your points:
1. I do deny that "there is an inherited sin nature".
2. The idea of a king reigning for ever is not always meant to be taken literally. It was said to David himself on his deathbed.
3. Look what you have done to the verse in Genesis. Who says "Shiloh" is the Messiah? Who says that Scepter means the ability to carry out capital punishment? These are assumptions that you make that have no obvious basis in the text. Not to mention that Jesus did not have the ability to enforce capital punishment either.
Chair
- Status