Could most modern English translations be in error?
- Thread starter GregoryN
- Start date
My bet is faitherrr is referring to his good buddy, Charles Taze Russell...[emoji57]
Never heard of him . Doesn't surprise me at all the clues I've left behind , you have no clue what a gifted teacher would look like , much less mine .
Then you're an antinomian, or what?
genuineoriginal
New member
Hebrew.
Not Greek, Hebrew.
Matthew was written in Hebrew.
The Hebrew word was "olam".
The verse was quoting Daniel 12:2.
All of your theology based on the Greek word aionion will always be wrong because you are refusing to look at the Judaic belief in "olam ha-ba" that the verse is based upon.
I don't care about a "Judaic belief". I care about God inspired inerrant Scripture.
"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."
"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).
Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)
Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
1Tim.4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Tim.2 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
genuineoriginal
New member
Then you refuse to understand the context of Jesus' words.
Scripture is inspired by God, but nowhere in the Bible does it state that scripture is inerrant.
This is especially true when speaking about whether translations are inerrant.
Jesus often quoted the Old Testament.
In Matthew 25:46, Jesus is quoting Daniel 12:2.
The Hebrew word is "olam".
The Greek word "aionion" is an errant translation.
Your dogma is based on an errant translation and does not take into account the understanding that Jesus had about this world (olam ha-zeh) and the world to come (olam ha-ba).
Luke 18:30 30 [JESUS]Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time (olam ha-zeh), and in the world to come (olam ha-ba) life everlasting.[/JESUS] |
Which English version is inerrant, Gregory? Perhaps you feel it's the Cotton Patch Bible...
No, i refuse your uninspired opinion. I can read the context in the Bible.
Tell that to the Hebrew scholars who translated olam as aionion in Dan.12:2 LXX.
In hundreds of occurences of OLAM they almost always translated OLAM as AION or AIONION.
But you think you know better than the scholars. You say they are wrong. Who are you?
genuineoriginal
New member
Your argument is like stating that the definition of "catholic" is "universal" and then talking about a universal church instead of the Roman Catholic church.
I am not wrong when I say that Catholic means a lot more than universal.
There is a lot of background information about the Catholic that you need to deal with when talking about the Catholic church, and any talk about a universal church is not a talk about the Catholic church.
I am not wrong in stating that olam means a lot more than aionion.
But you will always be wrong when trying to build a soteriology based solely on one of the meanings of the word aionion without understanding that Jesus was speaking about olam ha-ba.
Yes most modern English translations are in error, but then again, most ancient Greek translations are also in error.
This is unavoidable when you are dealing with words that have more than just a dictionary meaning behind them.
Rosenritter
New member
Strange how you would say that is a not translated correctly, because that is the meaning I obtained from reading my English translation. The meaning of the English "believe" depends on context. I even defined the believe with context today when speaking to someone, and I wasn't using any outside sources.
Pisteuo is the word in question .
1 ) Strongs : " pisteuo means not just to believe ."
2 ) Vines : " a personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender ."
3 ) The English language has no word for the verb form of the noun Faith . Therefore pisteuo could not be correctly translated into the English language .
Rose , your writing skills are some of the best I've seen , something I admit I sorely lack . I admire the fact you don't need to go right to misrepresentation and name-calling when your understandings get cornered . So I guess that's what I'm asking from you now , not to focus on me but what I'm presenting .
Look over the 3 facts I've put on the table and after concideration , ask any question you like about them .
These are just easily verifiable facts , a point of reference , used as a foundation for a mountain of other facts and at some point my understandings .
6days
New member
STRONGS: 4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.
Faither… What is the point you are attempting to make, other than you think almost every Biblical translation scholar doesn't understand the word 'pisteuo' as good as yourself?
Rosenritter
New member
I will use an example from something I said earlier today, before finding this thread. It was from a personal message so there's no link, I'll have to cash in some trust that I didn't fabricate this just now:
Is this the understanding of the word "believe" to which you were referring? I think it satisfies condition 1, "not just to believe" (as to believe in the existence of) and condition 2, "a personal surrender" ...
... but it seems to break rule 3, as in my understanding of this word "believe" had no problem using the English language as used in the King James context. Since I didn't write that in response to this thread (I didn't know of the thread then) I think this is a fair example demonstrating that the English translation of the word is sufficient to communicate the intended meaning?
I'm not saying some might not understand the word properly, but this wouldn't be the only word like that. Love is often misunderstood as well.
It's a difficult thing to try and change at this point . Everything that has been written since pisteuo was mistranslated into the English , supports the mistranslation . I have the Vines and Latest Strongs concordances in book form . I'm giving you the exact , word for word definitions from those two Greek dictionarys . I don't know why people are not willing or able to verify that .
Ok sounds like your willing to hear me out .
I ask alot of questions to see where your understandings are , so don't be put off for that.
How would you define what Faith , the noun is ?
Rosenritter
New member
"Faith is the evidence of things not seen" immediately comes to mind by reflex.
Hebrews 11:1-3 KJV
(1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
(2) For by it the elders obtained a good report.
(3) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
In building this definition, I would also consider:
Hab 2:4 - The just shall live by faith, faith is when his soul is upright in him
Matt 6:30 - Faith enables us to understand that God shall clothe us and care for our needs
Matt 8:10 - Faith was demonstrated by the Centurion that knew that Christ's command was all that was necessary to command the world
Matt 8:26 - Faith protects and prevents us from fear
Matt 9:2 - Faith enables us to trust in the mercy of God
... and so on and so forth. I build my definition from the biblical usage. Seeing that there are quite a few instances (230+) I won't list them all here (or review them all now) but I might say that faith is belief in action. Faith is impossible without belief, but faith is the substance (or fruit) of belief. There's quite a lot to be said about faith and belief. But my definition above is also repeated here:
Hebrews 11:6 KJV
(6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
The first portion introduces the noun faith, and the second portion expounds on the meaning of that noun. First is the most basic element that he is, and second is the deeper meaning that he is the rewarder of them that seek him. That seeking is not something that we passively wish for but something that requires action on basis of our belief.
Hebrews 11:8 KJV
(8) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
So much said about faith, too much to put in one post. For our fullest understanding we would want to absorb every scripture and add that to our context, but even a few sets the picture pretty well I think.
genuineoriginal
New member
Vine's explanation is filled with hyperbole (exaggerated statements).
Here is a simple dictionary definition:
πιστεύω • (pisteúō)
- to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), to credit
- to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)
- to believe, commit (to trust), put in trust with
Only humans who have a wrong faith could possibly in error. They think that their intelligence and knowledge can be used to judge the Word of God. In the first place however, they lost faith in an almighty God who has all the power to ensure that His Word can be conveyed consistently throughout history such that humans can be judged by a said standard.
That being said,
The Septuagint indicates that the Greek term pistis especially corresponds to the Hebrew term ’emûnāh, “fidelity, faithfulness.” The related verb form ’āman describes a faithful attitude toward another human being; it is especially used to denote a relationship with God (Genesis 15:6; Exodus 14:31; 2 Chronicles 20:20). It also indicates a trust in God with respect to His Word and His promises (Joshua 3:5; Psalm 106:12 [LXX 105:12]), and obedience to His commands (Psalm 119:66 [118:66]). The many dimensions of faith are also expressed by the Hebrew verb bāṯach, “to rely on, put confidence in” (cf. peithō), as well as by the verb chās̱āh, “to seek refuge in.” In both cases God is often the object in whom trust/confidence/refuge is placed or sought. Faith is not a passive resignation to life like fate; rather, it is confidence that God will fulfill His promises and will carry out His salvation plan just as it is expressed in the covenant relationship.
Faith is not a new concept in Jesus' days, and it's neither a new translation. It's a concept embedded in the Septuagint long ago.
That being said,
The Septuagint indicates that the Greek term pistis especially corresponds to the Hebrew term ’emûnāh, “fidelity, faithfulness.” The related verb form ’āman describes a faithful attitude toward another human being; it is especially used to denote a relationship with God (Genesis 15:6; Exodus 14:31; 2 Chronicles 20:20). It also indicates a trust in God with respect to His Word and His promises (Joshua 3:5; Psalm 106:12 [LXX 105:12]), and obedience to His commands (Psalm 119:66 [118:66]). The many dimensions of faith are also expressed by the Hebrew verb bāṯach, “to rely on, put confidence in” (cf. peithō), as well as by the verb chās̱āh, “to seek refuge in.” In both cases God is often the object in whom trust/confidence/refuge is placed or sought. Faith is not a passive resignation to life like fate; rather, it is confidence that God will fulfill His promises and will carry out His salvation plan just as it is expressed in the covenant relationship.
Faith is not a new concept in Jesus' days, and it's neither a new translation. It's a concept embedded in the Septuagint long ago.
Or , we could simply and just go to the source which is the Greek word " pistis " .
Pistis is Greek word where we get our English word Faith . Remembering that we are talking about a noun , a person , place or thing , a thing in this case .
Strongs expanded dictionary defines pistis as : " 4102 : reliance upon Christ for Salvation ; conviction of the truth ; pistis is used of " belief with the predominant idea of trust or confidence ."
Would you agree with these facts ? And that the word Faith is a noun , a thing , and not an action or the application of this particular thing , Faith ?