Did God put Israel's covenant on hold?

[Derf]

You can't get much more simple than Melchizedek's liturgy: "And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God."

I guess you have to include the tithe in the liturgy, then, if we describe what happened as a liturgy.

 

[Idolater]

I guess you have to include the tithe in the liturgy, then, if we describe what happened as a liturgy.

Huh. Never thought of that!

 

[Idolater]

I was a little confused about exactly what you were referring to. So I RETRACT that comment. There are no "covenants on hold" and particularly no "everlasting covenant on hold". (I still don't know WHICH everlasting covenant that you are talking about, since you've never specified). There is a NOW a different dispensation that God is in progress with and it's NOT associated with the "gospel of the kingdom".

Yes, it is. There are number of "everlasting covenants"... like circumcision.

God is no longer respecting Israel as He once was. They are "on hold" and there is a different program that God is currently implementing. Once God is done with this... He will resume with Israel per Paul in Romans 11.

Don't forget the Sabbath!

 

[Right Divider]

Don't forget the Sabbath!

Are you talking about the seventh day sabbath? Yes, again... that was given to Israel.

Exo 31:12-18 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, (13) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. (14) Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. (15) Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. (16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. (17) It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. (18) And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

The body of Christ has no holy days to observe. We are not under the law and are dead to the law.

Rom 6:14 KJV For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 7:4 KJV Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

 

[Idolater]

Are you talking about the seventh day sabbath? Yes, again... that was given to Israel.

The body of Christ has no holy days to observe. We are not under the law and are dead to the law.

Don't forget the Passover!

 

[Right Divider]

Don't forget the Passover!

Don't forget to stop distracting from the point.

God is NOT continuing with His plans for the earth and the earthly kingdom at this time.
God IS doing something different that He had HIDDEN until He revealed it to and through the apostle Paul.

You should get on board with what God is doing TODAY.

 

[Idolater]

Don't forget to stop distracting from the point.

God is NOT [sic] continuing with His plans for the earth and the earthly kingdom at this time.
God IS [sic] doing something different that He had HIDDEN [sic] until He revealed it to and through the apostle Paul.

You should get on board with what God is doing TODAY.

I am. Hebrews 13:20 calls it an "everlasting covenant." Christ is our passover. We keep the feast.

 

[Right Divider]

I am. Hebrews 13:20 calls it an "everlasting covenant."

What, exactly, is "it"?

Christ is our passover.

Indeed!

We keep the feast.

No, we don't.

 

[Stripe]

Nothing everlasting gets paused.

Why not?

 

[Idolater]

Why not?

Addressed in OP.

It's syntactically false.

 

[Right Divider]

Addressed in OP.

It's syntactically false.

This is called begging the question. It's fallaciously false.

 

[Idolater]

This is called begging the question. It's fallaciously false.

Nope. The word 'everlasting' doesn't allow for any kind of 'pausing', that is why it's syntactically false to suggest that anything 'everlasting' would ever be 'put on hold'. It's either possible to put something 'on hold' or it isn't, and if it is, then it cannot be 'everlasting'.

True dichotomy. One or the other; not both, and not some other option.

 

[Right Divider]

Nope. The word 'everlasting' doesn't allow for any kind of 'pausing', that is why it's syntactically false to suggest that anything 'everlasting' would ever be 'put on hold'. It's either possible to put something 'on hold' or it isn't, and if it is, then it cannot be 'everlasting'.

True dichotomy. One or the other; not both, and not some other option.

• The new and everlasting covenant between God and Israel has never been instantiated. Therefore, you have no grounds for a problem with it being "paused"
• It is NOT a "covenant" that has been "put on hold". It is an entire program: i.e., Israel and their earthly kingdom with Christ as king.
• The kingdom and the covenant cannot be established until the KING returns (Luke 19:12).

 

[Derf]

The difference is that the twelve Apostles will be on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

12 (and multiples of it) is an important number for Israel. It is a significant number throughout the Bible, and it always relates to Israel in some way.

Genesis 25:16 (KJV) These [are] the sons of Ishmael, and these [are] their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

What's being said is that the gospel of the kingdom for the nation of Israel is not the same as the gospel of grace for the whole world.

What is preached to the Jew (prior to Paul, mind you) is different than what is preached to the Gentile (after Paul's conversion).

But what was preached to the Jew after Paul’s conversion? Even Peter had to admit Paul had good things to say to the Jew.
2 Peter 3:15 (KJV)
And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Cornelius was saved AFTER Paul's conversion. That makes him saved via the gospel of Grace, and was preached Jesus Christ as Lord of all (Acts 10:36), and how He was raised on the third day (Acts 10:40), and that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43).

Romans 10:9-13, or an early version of it, perhaps.

The point is that Peter was preaching the same gospel of grace to Cornelius that Paul was preaching to other Gentiles. Peter’s gospel was the same as Paul’s. I admit that Peter and the other apostles were not quick to switch to the grace gospel, or to leave behind what they were comfortable with, but they were doing it.

What we KNOW is that Paul, and Peter, James, and John, agreed to go to different groups:

But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. - Galatians 2:7-9

Going to different groups is by no means the same as preaching a different gospel.

Rather, the reason for John not to go to the Gentiles is that his message wasn't FOR the Gentiles, but only for Israel. Remember, Christ said that He would return soon. Which meant that those who were saved under the gospel of the Kingdom needed to be ready for His return.

Paul thought Jesus would return soon as well. So those saved under Paul’s teaching ALSO had to be ready for His return, just as we do today.

No, they didn't. At least, not at first they didn't.

I appreciate the admission that they eventually, at least, preached the same gospel. I would suggest that the gospel Peter preached was always the same gospel, but there might well have been different messages for the Jews than for the gentiles—just not different gospels.

What difference in culture?

Paul was a Jew just as much as Peter was.

Unless you mean Jews vs Gentiles, in which case I would like to point out that the gospel that was revealed to Paul wasn't done all at once, and it would have taken even Paul some time to sort things out, especially because He was the first one to preach it.

Paul would have adjusted his message, and his behavior, if necessary, to fit his audience. 1 Corinthians 9:20 (KJV) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

though I caution you against appealing to tradition, which IS a logical fallacy.

You’ll have to throw out the whole canon of scripture, then, as we rely on tradition, primarily, for which ones are included.

We don’t throw out useful information just because it isn’t in scripture, though we treat it with proper skepticism.

And I didn’t appeal to tradition only, but compared it to scripture, I.e., the first 3 chapters of Revelation.

 

[Stripe]

It's syntactically false.

How?

If I pause a video, does it cease to exist?

 

[Idolater]

How?

If I pause a video, does it cease to exist?

If you 'pause' an everlasting video, it ceases to be an everlasting video. Or more accurately it never was one.

 

[Right Divider]

The point is that Peter was preaching the same gospel of grace to Cornelius that Paul was preaching to other Gentiles.

Please confirm this with scripture. It's just NOT there.

Act 10:1-2 KJV There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, (2) A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Cornelius was not just some random gentile. He was a gentile that believed in God and blessed Israel. The term "the people" refers to Israel.

Here's the sort thing that Peter preached to Cornelius.

Act 10:34-35 KJV Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

If you think that the gospel of the grace of God is about "working righteousness" to be "accepted with him", you are extremely confused.

NOWHERE in Acts 10 can you find Peter declaring the Jesus died for Cornelius' sins on the cross.

Peter’s gospel was the same as Paul’s.

Nope and repeating falsehoods does not make them true.

I admit that Peter and the other apostles were not quick to switch to the grace gospel, or to leave behind what they were comfortable with, but they were doing it.

If there is "only one gospel"... why would they need to "switch to the grace gospel"?

 

[Right Divider]

If you 'pause' an everlasting video, it ceases to be an everlasting video. Or more accurately it never was one.

As I mentioned earlier... your premise is false; therefore your conclusion is invalid.

 

[beloved57]

Why would God simply 'walk away from' the then 1500 year old institution of the office of a bishop (cf. 1 Tim 3:1)? 1500 years straight without a hiccup (on the fixed institution, not to say there weren't many disputes along the way), but then God suddenly abandons this institution, established by the Apostles themselves? We have that recorded in the Bible. This requires something like a prophet, for God to turn away from His own institution, but there was no prophet, there was just Martin Luther. Do you think that he or John Calvin were prophets, such that you are 100% that God has in fact relegated His own established teaching office, to the dustbin? The trashcan? The dump?

And on another topic, how does an "everlasting covenant" (Heb13:20), get put on hold? Nothing everlasting gets paused. That is pure fiction, and syntactically false as well.

Israel the Nation was a typical people, the Church the Body of Christ is antitype Israel, all the promises to Israel typical are fulfilled spiritually to the Church, through Christ.

 

[Right Divider]

Israel the Nation was a typical people, the Church the Body of Christ is antitype Israel, all the promises to Israel typical are fulfilled spiritually to the Church, through Christ.

More unsupported baloney.