Did Jesus have to be made perfect by his suffering?

[Lilstu]

From Hebrews 2:9-10
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The author of Hebrews implies that Jesus had to be made perfect through sufferings.
If Jesus is God wasn't he perfect before his crucifixion?

What do you think?

 

[nikolai_42]

From Hebrews 2:9-10
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The author of Hebrews implies that Jesus had to be made perfect through sufferings.
If Jesus is God wasn't he perfect before his crucifixion?

What do you think?

Perfection here has to do with completion or maturity. In the sense that He hadn't experienced that in His heavenly perfection (in the sense we usually understand that word), He needed to be made like as one of us to taste death for every man (Heb 2:9 as you quoted). That hadn't been completed in Him.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Hebrews 2:14-18

He could have destroyed the devil without doing all that - but there was more He would do as sharing in the frailties of human flesh. In that He was perfected so that He could fulfill the role of the High Priest better than any shadow or type.

 

[Lilstu]

I think you implying Jesus isn't perfect is blasphemy

I think you will notice that I did not write "Hebrews."
Note....Hebrews says...."make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings."

I was astounded when I read that verse. That's why I brought it to the attention of the forum.

 

[Lilstu]

Perfection here has to do with completion or maturity. In the sense that He hadn't experienced that in His heavenly perfection (in the sense we usually understand that word), He needed to be made like as one of us to taste death for every man (Heb 2:9 as you quoted). That hadn't been completed in Him.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Hebrews 2:14-18

He could have destroyed the devil without doing all that - but there was more He would do as sharing in the frailties of human flesh. In that He was perfected so that He could fulfill the role of the High Priest better than any shadow or type.

Are you implying that Jesus was not a perfect man, as well as a perfect God?
If as you say....""He was perfected""....then Jesus was not perfect and could not die for our sins.

 

[nikolai_42]

Are you implying that Jesus was not a perfect man, as well as a perfect God?
If as you say....""He was perfected""....then Jesus was not perfect and could not die for our sins.

No. My first statement was this :

Perfection here has to do with completion or maturity. In the sense that He hadn't experienced that in His heavenly perfection (in the sense we usually understand that word), He needed to be made like as one of us to taste death for every man (Heb 2:9 as you quoted). That hadn't been completed in Him.

Jesus was perfect in the sense of sinlessness and righteousness - but what the writer of Hebrews appears to be saying is that He had not identified with man personally until He came in flesh. He was humiliated for the benefit of many "sons". Because we were flesh-bound sinners, He took on that weakness and suffered as a man. That was necessary to accomplish what He was given to accomplish. That experience was how He identified with man's weakness (yet He Himself was without sin). He tasted death for every man (something He hadn't done but needed to do - that's what was lacking).

 

[Lilstu]

Hebrews 2:17King James Version (KJV)
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Is the author of Hebrews saying that Jesus had to be made like his brethren so that he could be ""merciful and faithful""?

If Jesus is God wouldn't he already be ""merciful and faithful?""

I am discovering my study today of Hebrews to be troubling.
I am seeing problems I never saw before

 

[Lilstu]

No. My first statement was this :



Jesus was perfect in the sense of sinlessness and righteousness - but what the writer of Hebrews appears to be saying is that He had not identified with man personally until He came in flesh. He was humiliated for the benefit of many "sons". Because we were flesh-bound sinners, He took on that weakness and suffered as a man. That was necessary to accomplish what He was given to accomplish. That experience was how He identified with man's weakness (yet He Himself was without sin). He tasted death for every man (something He hadn't done but needed to do - that's what was lacking).

""what the writer of Hebrews appears to be saying is that He had not identified with man personally until He came in flesh."" Who would know man better than He who made man?

 

[nikolai_42]

Hebrews 2:17King James Version (KJV)
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Is the author of Hebrews saying that Jesus had to be made like his brethren so that he could be ""merciful and faithful""?

If Jesus is God wouldn't he already be ""merciful and faithful?""

I am discovering my study today of Hebrews to be troubling.
I am seeing problems I never saw before

The Greek word for "merciful" in that verse - is only used twice in the NT. The word "mercy" or "merciful" appears in over 54 verses in the NT. That should show you that sometimes words (and those used in translation) don't necessarily carry the precise meaning you want to read into them. And when your broader understanding of scripture starts to turn on the precise meanings of single words, you need to take a step back since that almost always means you are reading into the text something not intended. Context can't be discarded or relegated to second place in favor of meanings of individual words. That's how a lot of twisting of scripture (usually unwittingly) is accomplished.

My two cents, anyway.

 

[nikolai_42]

""what the writer of Hebrews appears to be saying is that He had not identified with man personally until He came in flesh."" Who would know man better than He who made man?

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21

Christ became something He never experienced, in one sense. In another sense, He humbled Himself to experience something that was a part of the curse - really experienced it - but never actually was guilty of that which brought the curse on man (i.e. sin). Would He have "known" that in heaven?

 

[Lilstu]

Hebrews 3:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

Numbers 12:7King James Version (KJV)
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

So was Moses faithful in his own house or in God's house?
Do you see how the author of Hebrews is trying to denigrate Moses?

 

[Lilstu]

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21

Christ became something He never experienced, in one sense. In another sense, He humbled Himself to experience something that was a part of the curse - really experienced it - but never actually was guilty of that which brought the curse on man (i.e. sin). Would He have "known" that in heaven?

Doesn't God know everything? Does God have to be taught things he didn't know?
Can't God read the mind of man and know what they are thinking? Or does God lack this ability?

 

[nikolai_42]

Hebrews 3:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

Numbers 12:7King James Version (KJV)
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

So was Moses faithful in his own house or in God's house?
Do you see how the author of Hebrews is trying to denigrate Moses?

I don't see it. Both reference God's house.

 

[nikolai_42]

Doesn't God know everything? Does God have to be taught things he didn't know?
Can't God read the mind of man and know what they are thinking? Or does God lack this ability?

Does He know everything in that way? God can't be tempted with sin (James 1:13). That is an experience He will never have. Does that mean He can't deliver from it? That He doesn't know its deadliness? No. But the idea of experiencing it in a real and full way is something we are told God doesn't have. So when Jesus came to earth in the form of a servant, it was an experience He had never had.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:5-11

That said, I don't know all the "why"s...

 

[marhig]

Hebrews 2:17King James Version (KJV)
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Is the author of Hebrews saying that Jesus had to be made like his brethren so that he could be ""merciful and faithful""?

If Jesus is God wouldn't he already be ""merciful and faithful?""

I am discovering my study today of Hebrews to be troubling.
I am seeing problems I never saw before

And there's this

Hebrews 5

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

Why would Jesus have to learn obedience if he's God? And why would Jesus fear God if he was God? There are too many contradictions in the Bible that go against Jesus being God, but there are many scriptures that match what Jesus says, that he is the son of the living God.

And then also by him being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation to all that obey him. Which shows that there is obedience there, and we can't just say that we believe and that's it we're all off to heaven regardless of how we live, we have to obey God and Christ and live according to the will of God.

 

[Ben Masada]

Did Jesus have to be made perfect by his suffering?

If you guys insist on comparing Jesus to a perfect sacrifice done by the High Priest, he would have to be perfect before the sacrifice and not sacrifice first to achieve perfection. This is an evidence that the cross in the life of Jesus did not mean a sacrifice for the sins of another because he was not perfect. He broke the Golden Rule 15 times only in Mat. 23:13-33. Since the Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue, Jesus broke the Law and could no longer be offered as a sacrifice for the sinners since he was a sinner himself.

 

[Lilstu]

I don't see it. Both reference God's house.

Moses' house and God's house are not the same house.

 

[Lilstu]

I think you are correct when you write ""There are too many contradictions in the Bible that go against Jesus being God, but there are many scriptures that match what Jesus says, that he is the son of the living God.""

 

[nikolai_42]

Moses' house and God's house are not the same house.

Are you sure about that?

And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the Lord will build thee an house.
I Chronicles 17:10

What house was God building for David?

 

[Lilstu]

Did Jesus have to be made perfect by his suffering?

If you guys insist on comparing Jesus to a perfect sacrifice done by the High Priest, he would have to be perfect before the sacrifice and not sacrifice first to achieve perfection. This is an evidence that the cross in the life of Jesus did not mean a sacrifice for the sins of another because he was not perfect. He broke the Golden Rule 15 times only in Mat. 23:13-33. Since the Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue, Jesus broke the Law and could no longer be offered as a sacrifice for the sinners since he was a sinner himself.

Wow....Ben...you are really cooking.

Problems with Jesus' Sacrifice for Sins.
Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. but He, [Jesus] having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD. [Hebrews chapter 10]

The author of Hebrews compares Jesus' execution on the cross with the animal sacrifices performed by the Levitical priests in the Temple court.

So let's take a closer look at this comparison.
The animal had to be perfect. Jesus' skin had been marred by whipping.
The genitals of the animal had to be intact and perfect. Jesus was circumcised.
The animal had its throat cut. Jesus did not.
The animal was skinned and the skin was given to the High Priest. Jesus was not skinned.
The animal had its alimentary canal removed and the canal was burned outside the city. Jesus did not.
The animal was cut in quarters. Jesus was not.
The animal was burned on the Altar in the Temple court. Jesus was not.
The animal was sacrificed in the temple court. Jesus was executed outside the city.
The animal was sacrificed with Levitical priests officiating. Jesus was executed with Roman soldiers officiating.

The only thing Jesus had in common with the animal is that they both died.

 

[SimpleMan77]

And there's this

Hebrews 5

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

Why would Jesus have to learn obedience if he's God? And why would Jesus fear God if he was God? There are too many contradictions in the Bible that go against Jesus being God, but there are many scriptures that match what Jesus says, that he is the son of the living God.

And then also by him being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation to all that obey him. Which shows that there is obedience there, and we can't just say that we believe and that's it we're all off to heaven regardless of how we live, we have to obey God and Christ and live according to the will of God.

First of all, being "made perfect" is synonymous with being "made complete". One purpose for Him coming was to be made "like his brethren" so He could be a faithful High Priest. When He suffered and died he completed the work He came for, so He was made perfect/complete.

And yes, He was/is the fullness of God, manifested in the flesh. He learned obedience for the same purpose - to walk and experience the fullness of humanity. As God he reigns supreme. As a man he learned obedience. Stepping into humanity and limiting Himself to become a man did not mean God ceased to be everywhere and have all knowledge and power.


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