ECT Do we see two types of faith in scripture or one?

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I would definitely agree with that.
Would you also agree that the following faith spoken of in regard to having no root is also a type of faith that is not a "saving" faith?:

"And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away" (Mt.13:4-6).
 

chickenman

a-atheist
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Would you also agree that the following faith spoken of in regard to having no root is also a type of faith that is not a "saving" faith?:

"And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away" (Mt.13:4-6).

Certainly. And I'll save you the trouble of methodically leading me to the woman in Luke 7, to whom the Lord said "Thy faith has saved thee". No need to use up energy leading me there. Just know that my answer is as it was before. Those in John 2...those referenced in Matt. 13...the woman in Luke 7...all would have to abide in Christ. The blotting out of sins would come when they entered into the New Covenant with God. Until then, one who believed in His name (like those in John 2) would also have to abide in Him. Their sins could be forgiven, just like anyone in 1000 BC could have his sins forgiven. But it would be temporary until entrance into the New Covenant would make it eternal.

Anyway, you've heard it before. No need to re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-rehash it.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Anyway, you've heard it before. No need to re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-rehash it.
Randy, I was not leading you anywhere. I just wanted to know your opinion about the things which I asked about. However, since you brought it up I would like you to clarify something that you said:
Those in John 2...those referenced in Matt. 13...the woman in Luke 7...all would have to abide in Christ.
Do you or do you not recognize that the salvation of the following woman was according to "faith" and "faith" alone--even though, according to you, she would still have to abide in Him?:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).
 

Squeaky

BANNED
Banned
FAITH SAVES---BUT THATS IT

Faith alone will not help you. God has given everyone a measure of faith. If thats all you have you have nothing. Faith does not come from believing. If you think it does you are more deceived than the non believers.

Rom 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
(NKJ)

Faith without works is dead. Again faith alone will not help you.

James 2:17-26
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-- and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
(NKJ)

Faith without love is useless.

1 Cor 13:1-6

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
(NKJ)

Faith doesnt come by believing.Faith comes by hearing the Word quoted to you in your mind. Faith doesnt come by reading. Faith comes by hearing.

Rom 10:17
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
(NKJ)

Matt 5:6
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled.
(NKJ)
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Nang, these articles are confusing you and leading you to a false conclusion regarding the relationship of "faith" and "salvation."

Did you read the article?


You are wrong when you say that "we do not 'believe' to get saved."

Christians believe because they have been regenerated to new spiritual life; having been given new hearts with which to believe, and new spiritual ears to hear and believe the word of God.

Stop misrepresenting my views. I am simply stating regeneration precedes faith, belief, and repentance.

Salvation is contingent upon God's grace and power. Salvation is not contingent upon a human decision to believe.

All sinners exhibit faith in all kinds of things, but no sinner exhibits faith in God because of his hard, wicked heart and because he is at enmity against God. (Romans 3:10-19)

It is absolutely necessary the curse be removed (accomplished by Christ on the cross) and that God gives the sinner a new heart and spirit (accomplished by the Holy Spirit) when the sinner is born again from above.

Both accomplishments are first worked by God . . . BEFORE the sinner hears the gospel and believes unto salvation. The cross work of Christ (Justification) precedes faith and Regeneration (spiritual birth) precedes Conversion (sanctification, belief and repentance). All of which results in the ultimate salvation of the sinner . . . all glory given to God. Sola Deo Gloria!

This is the last time I am going to go through this with you, so if you are not given grace from God to grasp this truth, then just leave me alone. :sigh:

Nang
 

andyc

New member
Andy,

Check this article out. It is the finest teaching regarding faith I can offer you:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/faithof.html

Nang

I read the article, and the gift faith point of view is being put forward very convincingly, but it doesn't explain the examples in the bible where faith is reasoned out.
Now one thing I believe about faith is that it is dependent on the word of God. Faith comes be hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Therefore faith seems to be a product of God's grace as it is he who supplies the word, but it also seems dependent on our receptiveness in receiving.

Mark 8:15-21
15 Then He charged them, saying, "Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod."16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, "It is because we have no bread."17 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, "Why do you reason because you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive nor understand? Is your heart still hardened?18 "Having eyes, do you not see? And having ears, do you not hear? And do you not remember?19 "When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments did you take up?" They said to Him, "Twelve."20 "Also, when I broke the seven for the four thousand, how many large baskets full of fragments did you take up?" And they said, "Seven."21 So He said to them, "How is it you do not understand?"


Here we see Jesus rebuking his disciples for their lack of faith which he believes is a problem with regard to their perception, understanding, hardness of heart, and an unwillingness to incline their heart to see and hear God's word. It would be odd for Jesus to be critical about something that was out of their hands if this kind of faith is gifted.

Now I think that this is really significant when understanding one kind of faith wee see in scripture. It shows us that human qualities such as understanding, perception, and a willingness to incline our ears to hear, are required in order for us to reason out God's word.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
FAITH SAVES---BUT THATS IT

Faith alone will not help you.

"The just shall live by faith . . ." Romans 1:17

Sinners are saved by grace alone. Adding works to faith is to proclaim a false gospel called "works-righteousness."

Justification comes to sinners by faith alone.

Saying otherwise, no matter how many Scriptures you quote, is to proclaim a false gospel.

Sinners are saved by grace alone.

Sola Gratia!

Edited to add: Evoken, note! Squeaky is an intentional Pelagian.

Nang
 
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Nang

TOL Subscriber
I read the article, and the gift faith point of view is being put forward very convincingly, but it doesn't explain the examples in the bible where faith is reasoned out.

Well, that is because saving faith is a reasonable faith. And the reasoning of faith comes from the initial source of that faith . . . the very reasonable Word of God.

Faith is not blind. Saving faith is based upon the revelation of the faithful Son of God and His teachings and truths.


Now one thing I believe about faith is that it is dependent on the word of God. Faith comes be hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Amen.

Therefore faith seems to be a product of God's grace as it is he who supplies the word, but it also seems dependent on our receptiveness in receiving.

Agreed.

But something to consider closer here: Faith that justifies the soul comes from God; the actions of belief and repentance are produced by the man. So what accomplishes bringing faith and belief together?

I say it is the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, who first enables the sinner, by the gift of faith, to believe and repent when the gospel message is heard. IOW's "faith" and "belief" need some distinction in the order of things. Faith comes first, producing belief.

This explains why many hear the gospel preached but fail to believe it. That is because they have not been gifted with faith to believe. They have not been born again, nor anointed with the Holy Spirit. They have not been given new hearts and new spiritual ears to hear the gospel. Thus, the grace of God and the gift of faith are essential for any sinner to believe and repent from sins.

For the God's word telling men they must believe to live, is actually a command of the Law. And no natural man can or will obey God's Law. It is not in them to turn from sin or believe and love God.

That spiritual capacity must be given to them first, for all men are dead in their sins. They are spiritually non-functional.

That is why Jesus said, one must be born again before he can see the kingdom. John 3:3



Mark 8:15-21
15 Then He charged them, saying, "Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod."16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, "It is because we have no bread."17 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, "Why do you reason because you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive nor understand? Is your heart still hardened?18 "Having eyes, do you not see? And having ears, do you not hear? And do you not remember?19 "When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments did you take up?" They said to Him, "Twelve."20 "Also, when I broke the seven for the four thousand, how many large baskets full of fragments did you take up?" And they said, "Seven."21 So He said to them, "How is it you do not understand?"


Here we see Jesus rebuking his disciples for their lack of faith which he believes is a problem with regard to their perception, understanding, hardness of heart, and an unwillingness to incline their heart to see and hear God's word.

This passage of Scripture is an example of the gospel being preached. A sound and true gospel message always begins with a reiteration of the Law. Sinners need to be told they fail God under the Law, in order for sinners to find out their need of salvation. The Law is reiterated in the gospel message to draw (regenerated) men to their need of Christ.

This was the message Christ was giving here. He was telling the disciples their true condition. They were condemned and bereft of any natural faith in God.

It would be odd for Jesus to be critical about something that was out of their hands if this kind of faith is gifted.

Jesus was not criticizing them. He was revealing to them their unfaithful condition. None of the disciples came to faith in Christ until He later gifted them with the ability to believe His miracles.

Now I think that this is really significant when understanding one kind of faith wee see in scripture. It shows us that human qualities such as understanding, perception, and a willingness to incline our ears to hear, are required in order for us to reason out God's word.

Indeed, these things are required. But men dead in their trespasses and sins function without any such spiritual understanding or perception, and Scripture tells us that none of them seek God (Romans 3:11), nor are any inclined to reason and believe His Word . . . unless and until they are born again from above by the Holy Spirit of God.

New spiritual life and the gift of faith must first necessarily be given, before the sinner CAN understand or perceive or reason the gospel message. Dead sinners must first be raised to new life and given new hearts BEFORE they can comprehend the works of Christ and believe unto salvation. And this "resurrection" comes only by the power and grace of God.

Those whom God does not choose to raise up and anoint with His Holy Spirit, remain in their sins and condemned. (John 3:18) They remain ungodly, natural men, who cannot reason out the truths of the gospel but consider the gospel message and Words of God to be foolishness. (I Corinthians 2:14)

IOW's God sovereignly controls who will believe and who will not, by whom He determines to show grace and gift with the saving faith of Christ.

And ultimately, this is what Jesus was revealing to His disciples in the passage you quote. He was telling them their true condition, so that when they did exhibit faith, they would realize it was not a faith produced from themselves, but it was a saving faith gifted to them by the Lord.

This passage is very similar to the incident of Jesus walking on water as a witness to the disciples, and the account of Peter trying to emulate the accomplishment of Christ. It was revealed to Peter, that in his natural condition, he did not have the spiritual capacity to walk as Christ walked. See Matthew 14:25-31

In order for any sinner to be saved, he must first be shown his true condition and what he needs to be saved from.

Nang
 

SovereigntyIsGods

New member
There are two kinds of faith. Living faith and faith drummed up by the will of man as a dead work. Living faith is a gift from God, while the other profits you nothing. Faith after salvation can grow as a spiritual gift from God, but not from your own will.
 

Squeaky

BANNED
Banned
"The just shall live by faith . . ." Romans 1:17

Sinners are saved by grace alone. Adding works to faith is to proclaim a false gospel called "works-righteousness."

Justification comes to sinners by faith alone.

Saying otherwise, no matter how many Scriptures you quote, is to proclaim a false gospel.

Sinners are saved by grace alone.

Sola Gratia!

Edited to add: Evoken, note! Squeaky is an intentional Pelagian.


Nang

I said
Sorry but faith only saves one. It doesnt justify them or give them salvation. One has to work out their salvation. Your only saved so that you can work out your own salvation.

Phil 2:12
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
(NKJ)
 

andyc

New member
There are two kinds of faith. Living faith and faith drummed up by the will of man as a dead work. Living faith is a gift from God, while the other profits you nothing. Faith after salvation can grow as a spiritual gift from God, but not from your own will.

I can't accept this. I can tell that this reasoning is arrived at based on a total depravity mindset. You have to step out of that for a moment in order to be sincere in thinking this through. Otherwise you'll only be interpreting scripture through the eyes of theologians that you're subscribing to. If you're convinced that man is nothing but a pitiful worm outside of God intervening, then that's how you'll read and interpret the bible. Nang has been trying to explain the reasoning behind gifted faith from how she understands it, not by simply nailing her theological colors to the mast.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I said
Sorry but faith only saves one. It doesnt justify them or give them salvation.

This makes no sense.


One has to work out their salvation. Your only saved so that you can work out your own salvation.

Phil 2:12
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
(NKJ)

One can only comprehend Phil. 2:12 when they also read Philippians 2:13.
 

andyc

New member
I can identify with what you explained until you said this.....

Jesus was not criticizing them. He was revealing to them their unfaithful condition. None of the disciples came to faith in Christ until He later gifted them with the ability to believe His miracles.

I'm surprised that you did not see a clear rebuke from Jesus in this passage, but you see, the consequence to this is that if he was rebuking them for human qualities that they were not exercising, then the opposite would be true if they were, and I can see that this would be a problem for you.

Mark 8:21 So He said to them, "How is it you do not understand?"

First he tells them how they should have understood, and then asks them why they didn't. They would have no choice but to admit they were struggling in the area of faith, and it wasn't pleasing Jesus. He was going to be leaving the church in their hands and they needed to shape up and get with it.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Originally Posted by SovereigntyIsGods
There are two kinds of faith. Living faith and faith drummed up by the will of man as a dead work. Living faith is a gift from God, while the other profits you nothing. Faith after salvation can grow as a spiritual gift from God, but not from your own will.


I can't accept this.

SIG has given you a correct answer.

Odd for you to say you can't accept this, considering your OP and some of your own conclusions.

I can tell that this reasoning is arrived at based on a total depravity mindset.

Yes, that is correct. Unless one grasps the total depravity of human nature, they cannot grasp the magnitude of the grace of God that gifts undeserving sinners with the saving faith of Christ.

You have to step out of that for a moment in order to be sincere in thinking this through. Otherwise you'll only be interpreting scripture through the eyes of theologians that you're subscribing to. If you're convinced that man is nothing but a pitiful worm outside of God intervening, then that's how you'll read and interpret the bible.

Actually, it is years of reading the bible that has convicted my heart of the doctrine of Total Depravity. Reformed theologians have only confirmed what I and SIG have learned from the Scriptures.


Nang has been trying to explain the reasoning behind gifted faith from how she understands it, not by simply nailing her theological colors to the mast.

That is because the Scriptures and the doctrine of Total Depravity are reasonable, as is saving faith reasonable. They all concur and point to the truth that salvation comes by the grace of God through faith, and not by the works (belief and repentance) of men, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Christians who exhibit faith, belief, and repentance are God's "workmanship." Ephesians 2:10

SIG and I both would emphasize that faith does not come from the will of man, but as an act of grace from the will of God:

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:13

(Which brings us back to the doctrine of Regeneration, again. Regeneration of the soul is necessary due to the Total Depravity of all sinners.)

Nang
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Stop misrepresenting my views. I am simply stating regeneration precedes faith, belief, and repentance.
I did not represent your position. Instead, I quoted your exact words:
IOW's, we do not "believe" to get saved. We "believe" because we have been saved. . . strictly by the grace and will of God.
You basically repeat the same thing again:
Salvation is contingent upon God's grace and power. Salvation is not contingent upon a human decision to believe.
Again, the facts prove that you are wrong, as witnessed by the following exchange and pay particular attention to the answer which was given to the Philippian jailer:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"
(Acts 16:30-31).

In His grace,
Jerry
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
SIG and I both would emphasize that faith does not come from the will of man, but as an act of grace from the will of God:

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:13

Believing something is not based on one's will. In the natural sphere a man knows that five plus five equals ten. He cannot "will" himself to believe that five plus five equals nine or eleven or anything other than ten. A man cannot "will" himself to believe something that the evidence tells him is not true. It is impossible, and that is because a person's beliefs are based on "evidence" and not based on his "will":

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).

Being "born again" or "born of God" is accomplished when the sinner believes the gospel (1 Pet.1:23-25). The Lord Himself has supernaturally given the true believer an "understanding" of the gospel and the believer "knows" Him Who is true:

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (1 Jn. 5:11).

Again, this knowledge is based on "evidence":

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).

Indeed, this "evidence of things not seen" comes to us is the gospel, and the gospel comes unto us in power, in the Holy Spirit, and with much assurance:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake" (1 Thess.1:5).

Those who have believed the gospel have a supernatural knowledge of the truths of the gospel, a knowledge that even supercedes any knowledge that a person might have in the natural sphere. This supernatural evidence is so strong that Paul can speak of Christ's crucifixion clearly portrayed before them:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?" (Gal.3:1).

There is no merit in believing the gospel, especially since it is absolutely true and that truth comes in the power of the Holy Spirit. And again, believing the gospel is not a function of the will of man:

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (Ro.9:16).

In His grace,
Jerry
 

andyc

New member
Originally Posted by SovereigntyIsGods
There are two kinds of faith. Living faith and faith drummed up by the will of man as a dead work. Living faith is a gift from God, while the other profits you nothing. Faith after salvation can grow as a spiritual gift from God, but not from your own will.


SIG has given you a correct answer.

Odd for you to say you can't accept this, considering your OP and some of your own conclusions.

His response (whether right or wrong) was based on a total depravity mindset learned by reading theologians, he didn't offer anything constructive of his own concerning faith.

Yes, that is correct. Unless one grasps the total depravity of human nature, they cannot grasp the magnitude of the grace of God that gifts undeserving sinners with the saving faith of Christ.

But what if total depravity is an erroneous view, like I think it is?
If we can't understand faith without subscribing to total depravity, this will be a huge bias in our understanding of faith.

Actually, it is years of reading the bible that has convicted my heart of the doctrine of Total Depravity. Reformed theologians have only confirmed what I and SIG have learned from the Scriptures.

So your understanding of faith is influenced by grasping total depravity?

That is because the Scriptures and the doctrine of Total Depravity are reasonable, as is saving faith reasonable. They all concur and point to the truth that salvation comes by the grace of God through faith, and not by the works (belief and repentance) of men, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Christians who exhibit faith, belief, and repentance are God's "workmanship." Ephesians 2:10

Our recreation is indeed a complete work of God, but I believe our submission to his word is something that God merits to us (Luke 7:50).

SIG and I both would emphasize that faith does not come from the will of man, but as an act of grace from the will of God:

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:13

(Which brings us back to the doctrine of Regeneration, again. Regeneration of the soul is necessary due to the Total Depravity of all sinners.)

Whereas I see regeneration as a consequence of believing, and it is God's will that we believe.
 

SovereigntyIsGods

New member
I can't accept this. I can tell that this reasoning is arrived at based on a total depravity mindset. You have to step out of that for a moment in order to be sincere in thinking this through. Otherwise you'll only be interpreting scripture through the eyes of theologians that you're subscribing to. If you're convinced that man is nothing but a pitiful worm outside of God intervening, then that's how you'll read and interpret the bible. Nang has been trying to explain the reasoning behind gifted faith from how she understands it, not by simply nailing her theological colors to the mast.

I never subscrided to any theologian. I could easily make out total depravity before i was even saved. after my salvation i recognized my own heart and how depraved i was and realized that i never even chose Christ or looked for him. One day i just knew the truth. After i was saved, i worked out a lot of theological views i have right now without knowing a thing about theology. I didn't know who calvin was until this year. Open your eyes up. No one teaches children to lie, steal, and covet. It is in their nature.

Its the arminianists that create workarounds and approach the scripture with bias. The scripture is abundantly clear. Salvation is a gift from God.
 

andyc

New member
I never subscrided to any theologian. I could easily make out total depravity before i was even saved. after my salvation i recognized my own heart and how depraved i was and realized that i never even chose Christ or looked for him. One day i just knew the truth. After i was saved, i worked out a lot of theological views i have right now without knowing a thing about theology. I didn't know who calvin was until this year. Open your eyes up. No one teaches children to lie, steal, and covet. It is in their nature.

Its the arminianists that create workarounds and approach the scripture with bias. The scripture is abundantly clear. Salvation is a gift from God.

If you recognized how sinful you were from a young age, it proves that you aren't totally depraved. Those who are depraved don't care.
 

SovereigntyIsGods

New member
I didn't recognize my own depravity until after salvation.

"after my salvation i recognized my own heart and how depraved i was " - Me

The main point of my last post was that i didn't come to these conclusions from any persuasive preaching. I came to these conclusions solely from scripture and the world around me, aswell as an attempt to understand my own salvation. The reason i accept the title Calvinist is because he preached total depravity and sovereign grace. These views are fundamental to understanding (as best i can) the Lord i know and love. I don't like putting a title on my theological views, it just puts me into the spectrum so their isn't too much confusion about where i will stand. I seek the truth and nothing else. I don't support everything that calvin said, i don't support everything that Luther said. They were all just men. I could be wrong about certain systematic theologies as well, but concerning total depravity and sovereign grace, i believe i've stricken the nail on the head, (at no intelligence of my own, but by Godly revelation). And concerning systematic theology, that seems to be the rampant view of study around here rather than a strong biblical theology concerning the Promise plan of God. "Freewill" would not work into the plan. Our "freewill" is merely an extension of God's sovereignty and is not actually ours to grasp.
 
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