ECT Do we see two types of faith in scripture or one?

Squeaky

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This makes no sense.

One can only comprehend Phil. 2:12 when they also read Philippians 2:13.

I said
SALVATION (BEING ACCEPTED)

Heb 5:8-9
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Phil 2:12
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Heb 10:19-20
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,
Luke 1:77
77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people by the remission of their sins,
Heb 6:1
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 Pet 1:20-2:1
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
CHAPTER 2
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 Pet 2:18
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
2 Pet 1:13
13 Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you,
James 1:22
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
James 2:17
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Heb 13:8
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
II Th 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
Luke 17:20-21
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
21 "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
Heb 4:9-10
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Mark 9:1
1 And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power."
2 Cor 5:5
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Acts 10:34-35
34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.
35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
2 Cor 7:15
15 And his affections are greater for you as he remembers the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling you received him.
2 Cor 7:10
10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
Heb 2:3-4
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
Jude 1:3
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
Gal 5:4-5
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Eph 1:4-6
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
Eph 1:7-12
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-- in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Jude 1:2-3
2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
2 Pet 3:14-15
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
(NKJ)
xxxxx Saved and salvation are alittle different. Saved is your saved from the condemnation you deserve right now. So if your alive your saved. But salvation is being accepted or worthy to go to heaven. Now the one thing that makes you worthy is in knowing your not worthy. Confusing- God wants us to know by what power we make it-His. Our works and the things we do show our determination to please Him. And our determination is what gets us so much mercy and forgiveness. And our determination mixed together with His mercy and forgiveness makes us worthy. And one of the requirements is that we know the truth about ourselves that we alone with out Him are not worthy.

SAVED (YOUR SAVED SO YOU CAN WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION)
Jude 1:3-5
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
Heb 9:8-9
8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience--
(NKJ)


Jude 1:5
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
(NKJ)
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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I can't accept this. I can tell that this reasoning is arrived at based on a total depravity mindset. You have to step out of that for a moment in order to be sincere in thinking this through. Otherwise you'll only be interpreting scripture through the eyes of theologians that you're subscribing to. If you're convinced that man is nothing but a pitiful worm outside of God intervening, then that's how you'll read and interpret the bible. Nang has been trying to explain the reasoning behind gifted faith from how she understands it, not by simply nailing her theological colors to the mast.
While I do not believe in total depravity, at least not from the Calvinist point of view, I have to ask, do you believe you have the ability to save yourself?
 

andyc

New member
I didn't recognize my own depravity until after salvation.

"after my salvation i recognized my own heart and how depraved i was " - Me

The main point of my last post was that i didn't come to these conclusions from any persuasive preaching. I came to these conclusions solely from scripture and the world around me, aswell as an attempt to understand my own salvation. The reason i accept the title Calvinist is because he preached total depravity and sovereign grace. These views are fundamental to understanding (as best i can) the Lord i know and love. I don't like putting a title on my theological views, it just puts me into the spectrum so their isn't too much confusion about where i will stand. I seek the truth and nothing else. I don't support everything that calvin said, i don't support everything that Luther said. They were all just men. I could be wrong about certain systematic theologies as well, but concerning total depravity and sovereign grace, i believe i've stricken the nail on the head, (at no intelligence of my own, but by Godly revelation). And concerning systematic theology, that seems to be the rampant view of study around here rather than a strong biblical theology concerning the Promise plan of God. "Freewill" would not work into the plan. Our "freewill" is merely an extension of God's sovereignty and is not actually ours to grasp.

I appreciate what you're saying, but I can't see anyone who can be reasoned with in regard to sin, to be totally depraved. I wasn't a totally depraved person before I was born again. I believed in God and believed that Jesus died for me, for 20 years before I was born again.
 

andyc

New member
While I do not believe in total depravity, at least not from the Calvinist point of view, I have to ask, do you believe you have the ability to save yourself?

It depends on how you look at it.
If I was trapped in a house on fire and the phone still worked, I would have an opportunity to save myself by calling the fire department. But its also true to say that the fire department would be doing the work. So it's true that I can save myself by taking advantage of what God has provided for salvation.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Which simply means.."cooperate".
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
It depends on how you look at it.
If I was trapped in a house on fire and the phone still worked, I would have an opportunity to save myself by calling the fire department. But its also true to say that the fire department would be doing the work. So it's true that I can save myself by taking advantage of what God has provided for salvation.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Which simply means.."cooperate".

Which simply means you believe in a synergistic salvation achieved by the works of both God and man.

Reformers believe in a monergistic salvation achieved solely by the works of God.

If you want to look into some rich, monergistic teachings, there is an excellent website at www.monergism.com :chew:

Nang
 

SovereigntyIsGods

New member
I appreciate what you're saying, but I can't see anyone who can be reasoned with in regard to sin, to be totally depraved. I wasn't a totally depraved person before I was born again. I believed in God and believed that Jesus died for me, for 20 years before I was born again.

The Lord can bring conviction on a man who is unregenerate. Man is made with a conscience and knows right from wrong. Man always chooses wrong and usually knows it. When i say depraved, i mean that man can do nothing but sin apart from grace. An unsaved man can give to charity and it's still a sin, because of the motives. He wants to look like a good guy. He is operating in pride. And concerning your salvation, thats proof that you were saved by grace and not faith alone.
 

andyc

New member
The Lord can bring conviction on a man who is unregenerate. Man is made with a conscience and knows right from wrong.

If this is the case, man can't be totally depraved. It can't be that if a man doesn't have a conscience he is totally depraved, but that if he rejects this conscience completely he becomes depraved.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting

Ignoring conscience leads to depravity, and God allows people to pursue the fruits of depravity.
Man always chooses wrong and usually knows it. When i say depraved, i mean that man can do nothing but sin apart from grace. An unsaved man can give to charity and it's still a sin, because of the motives. He wants to look like a good guy. He is operating in pride. And concerning your salvation, thats proof that you were saved by grace and not faith alone.

The reason that man cannot walk in the love of God, is because God didn't originally create man with the love of God. Agape is a spiritual quality which Adam did not need as long as he was ignorant of the knowledge of good and evil. When his flesh was awakened to morality after he took the fruit, his conscience was there to guide him in his struggle.
 

Psalmist

Blessed is the man that......
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Do we see two types of faith in scripture or one?


This is probably of topic, off point . . .

Jesus mentioned great faith. Lord but say the word.

Jesus mentioned little faith. But it can grow, mustard seed faith.

In any case, Lord increase our faith.
 

Squeaky

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Do we see two types of faith in scripture or one?


This is probably of topic, off point . . .

Jesus mentioned great faith. Lord but say the word.

Jesus mentioned little faith. But it can grow, mustard seed faith.

In any case, Lord increase our faith.

I said
I was wondering because of weak faith and strong faith if this is what they are calling to different ones. Now there is a real faith and a counterfiet faith. Which is no more than believing strongly..
 

Psalmist

Blessed is the man that......
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Hall of Fame
I said
I was wondering because of weak faith and strong faith if this is what they are calling to different ones. Now there is a real faith and a counterfiet faith. Which is no more than believing strongly.

As for my faith and His enough . . .

When my faith is weak, Lord be my strength.
When my faith is small, Lord be my confidence.
When my faith wavers, Lord be my guide.
 

Squeaky

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As for my faith and His enough . . .

When my faith is weak, Lord be my strength.
When my faith is small, Lord be my confidence.
When my faith wavers, Lord be my guide.

I said
It has always amazed me how so many can claim certain things in the bible but they cant define what their claiming. They say they have faith but cant define it. They say they walk in love but cant define it. They say they sacrifice but cant define it. They say their a believer but cant stand on the verses.
 

andyc

New member
One thing I've been meditating on specifically in this area the last few days is whether or not we receive Christ's faith when we are born again.

Is there anyone here who has an opinion on this?

I don't believe we are saved by Christ's faith, but do we receive his faith as part of his nature that is imputed to us by the Holy Spirit when we are born again?
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
One thing I've been meditating on specifically in this area the last few days is whether or not we receive Christ's faith when we are born again.

Is there anyone here who has an opinion on this?

I don't believe we are saved by Christ's faith, but do we receive his faith as part of his nature that is imputed to us by the Holy Spirit when we are born again?

Faith is an attribute of God, so when we receive the anointing of the Spirit of Christ at regeneration, we spiritually partake in the blessings of His Being and presence and we will exhibit the very fruits of His Spirit. Faithfulness being one. (Galatians 5:22-23)

Faith gifted from God is saving faith, for it comes from the grace of God. We are saved by grace through faith, and not of ourselves. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Nang
 

andyc

New member
Faith is an attribute of God, so when we receive the anointing of the Spirit of Christ at regeneration, we spiritually partake in the blessings of His Being and presence and we will exhibit the very fruits of His Spirit. Faithfulness being one. (Galatians 5:22-23)

Faith gifted from God is saving faith, for it comes from the grace of God. We are saved by grace through faith, and not of ourselves. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Nang

Obviously as a calvinist you regard all aspects of faith as originating with God.
 

andyc

New member
This thread is almost turning into a diary of faith ha ha!

A thought occurred to me this morning as I was contemplating something. I've been considering a career move and this morning I started to feel anxious about the possible outcome of an upcoming Job interview. Whenever I'm unsettled about something, I always question why.
Now, I told myself it was only an interview and that the outcome was out of my control, so I made a conscious decision to be at peace about it, and within seconds all the unsettledness left.

If faith is rest, I had to make the effort to remain in rest, but if the peace I now feel is as a result of the gift of God, then rest/faith still originated from God.

However if faith is gift of God, it would suggest that remaining in faith is subject to our will. To the extent that we worry is dependent on what we consider to be more significant. God's assurances Vs the problem.

God was critical of the Israelites who despaired while under trial in the wilderness, and yet they were God's people.
 

SovereigntyIsGods

New member
One thing I've been meditating on specifically in this area the last few days is whether or not we receive Christ's faith when we are born again.

Is there anyone here who has an opinion on this?

I don't believe we are saved by Christ's faith, but do we receive his faith as part of his nature that is imputed to us by the Holy Spirit when we are born again?

What you've stated is Sovereign grace in a nutshell. And it is the truth.
 

andyc

New member
This is something that I was meditating on yesterday............

What if faith is a human quality that is enhanced through our regeneration?
I really like this thought, it really witnesses with me.

We all have a human joy, love, peace, faith etc, but it is limited to our natural self in this natural world. When we are born again, our love is enriched with Christ's love, and our faith is enriched with Christ's faith etc. Paul said, "he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him".
When we are born again we can walk in spiritual principles through a faith that has been enriched and adapted to encompass the spiritual.
 

andyc

New member
and from the first post
"Do we see two types of faith in scripture or one? - September 13th, 2010, 05:04 AM
Faith that originates from our reasoning of the scriptures, and a supernatural faith enabling us to believe spiritual truths?
Actually if we include the ministry gift of faith in 1Cor 12:9, we could say that there are three possible faiths in the bible."
..
.
as long as you are not taught personally in the spirit by Abba,
you will not understand, but will
either
continue to be confused (if you are as you said)
or
will become settled/comfortable in a deceived condition (like catholics or anyone else who serves one of the other not-true gods).

specificaly
"faith that originates from reasoning" or any other source instead of Abba
is not a saving nor redeeming faith. period.

as long as you continue to reason in the flesh, you will continue stumbling and not being healed.

It is written that the flesh and all that it entails needs to be renounced utterly and totally
as
a part of turning to Abba in obedient trusting and dependancy on HIM.

the refreshing healing joyful aspect of this is that it can IMMEDIATELY and TOTALLY all at once set you free even from the catholic abominations. (and the rcc will and does kick out or execute anyone who has real and true faith and acts upon it)

I disagree.
 
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