elected4ever
New member
THIS POST BY SOZO IS ONE OF THE MOST FANTASTIC PRESENTATIONS OF THE GOSPEL I HAVE EVER SEEN
Post #1 of 12
Let us examine a couple of things that Paul said to address the delineation between flesh and spirit.
Your flesh is defined in two different ways in his writings.
Obviously your body still functions, does it not? Yet Paul clearly states that your body is dead. (Romans 8:10)
I think that you would also agree that you still have flesh, and yet Paul affirms that you are NOT "in the flesh". (Rom 7:5), (Rom 8:9).
However, Paul also says that we are "in the flesh" (2 Cor. 10:3), (Phi 1:22-24)
Is Paul making a contradiction? Not at all! He is simply revealing the truth concerning the relationship that you have with God, and the suffering that takes place in this life while you await the redemption (exchange) of your body for a new one. (Romans 8:18-25)
The main reason that there is so much disagreement (and outright anger on my part, with those who bring a different gospel), is centered around the fact that I believe that the Spirit has already been redeemed, made perfect (Heb 10:14), sanctified (Heb 10:10), and complete (Col 2:10), and that you have received the very life of God (which is salvation), and are forever in fellowship with God. Many who are on this site do not believe that, and rather teach the idea that your salvation is predicated upon your ability to maintain a relationship with God through being faithful, confessing all your sins on a daily basis, modifying your behavior towards perfection and sanctification, and countless other tasks, traditions, rituals, and works.
In any case, let's look more closely at what happens when someone comes to Christ by grace through faith.
First of all Paul makes it clear that we have been crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6), (Gal 2:20), (Gal 5:24), (Gal 6:14). Therefore, we have died with Him (Rom 6:8), (Rom 7:6), (Col 2:20), (Col 3:3), (2 Tim 2:11). And we are no longer who we once were (1 Cor 6:11), (2 Cor 5:17), (Eph 4:24), (Col 3:10).
Those who are "in Christ" have been circumcised from the flesh (Col 2:11). So even though you still live on in the flesh, you no longer have a relationship with God according to the flesh. The flesh is dead to God, because you are now alive in the Spirit. And it is through the Spirit alone that you are in fellowship with God.
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me
Paul describes perfectly what we as believers go through on a daily basis while remaining in these dead bodies, and yet knowing that we are in fact alive in the spirit.
Romans 7:5-6
"For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter"
When you and I were bound to the Law, sin was aroused in our flesh bearing the fruit of death. Why? Because the only thing that your flesh can produce is that which is contrary to the Law. In Galatians 5, Paul describes the deeds of the flesh that are aroused through the Law: "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these". (Paul adds "things like these" just in case anyone had the notion to believe that they were not doing any of the things he actually listed ). Paul makes it clear that we are not bound to or under the Law, and that we now serve Christ in the Spirit, and not in the flesh.
Romans 7:7-8
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet." But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
The Law was given to reveal to each of us that we have sin. Why? Because sin is the indicator that you are dead to God, and in need of life. The Law shows you that you are dead; it leads you to life (Gal 3:22-26). However, once you have received life, you are dead to the Law, and alive to God.
Galatians 2:19
"For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God."
Paul continues...
Romans 7:9-11
And I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.
In 2 Corinthians 3, Paul refers to the 10 Commandments as the "ministry of death" and the "ministry of condemnation".
Jesus was born under the Law (Gal 4:4) and He used the Law to bring death and condemnation to all who believed that they were righteous through observing the Law...
"And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." He said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself." The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieved; for he was one who owned much property. And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." And when the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" And looking upon them Jesus said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible".
And again...
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart"
Any notion that people had that they were righteous under the Law was laid to rest by through Jesus ability to prove that it is impossible for men to have eternal life through the Law. As Paul affirms:
Galatians 2:21
"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
Galatians 3:21-22
"Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Paul continues...
Romans 7:12-13
"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."
Again we see that Paul confirms the purpose of the Law, to reveal how completely unrighteous we are, and that we are dead to God.
Romans 7:14-16
For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good.
Paul shows the struggle of his desire to do that which agrees with the Law, and yet, because of his flesh, he is only able to do those things that are contrary to the Law.... the very deeds of the flesh (Gal 5:19-21).
Romans 7:17-21
So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good.
Paul understands the clear distinction between who he is now in Christ, in the spirit, and not in the flesh. He goes as far as to affirm that the true Paul is not the flesh, but the new creation in Christ that has been made alive in the spirit. This is the real Paul even though he continues to live on in a body that is dead to God and filled with indwelling sin.
Paul makes certain to let the reader know that the flesh is incapable of doing good, even though he wishes it was so. And claims that he indeed practices evil, because it is present in his flesh, and will continue to be so (as noted in Rom 8) until it has been redeemed. Please note also that John makes it clear in 1 John 3:8 that " the one who practices sin is of the devil". Yet Paul affirms that his flesh practices sin. Is Paul of the devil? No, but his flesh is, because it is dead to God, but Paul is in the spirit, and no longer in the flesh.
Romans 7:22-23
For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Paul concludes that he is trapped by his desire to do good, and the fact that his body has indwelling sin which wages war against him, and he pleads to be set free!
Paul has good news...
"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Even though Paul has this desire to do good and that he is bound to the flesh that has indwelling sin, he can give thanks to Christ who has set him free from this body of death, and he is no longer under the condemnation of the Law.
Romans 8:1-2
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."
Again, we have been crucified with Christ, circumcised from the flesh, made alive in the spirit, and set free from sin and death.
Romans 8:3-4
"For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."
As we have already seen, the Law could not impart life, nor make anyone righteous. Therefore, God sent His Son to condemn (put an end to) sin in our flesh, so that the Law is fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit!
We are made fulfillers of the Law through Christ's life, not because we can now keep it through behavior modification, but because we have died with Him, and we now share in His life through the indwelling of the Spirit.
Romans 8:5-8
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
What are the "things of the flesh" that one would set their minds on. And what are the "things of the Spirit". We just read in Chapter 7 that when Paul set his mind on the flesh he found that in Him dwelt no good thing and that he has no choice but to practice the very evil that he does not wish. Paul knows that the mind set on the flesh can only bring forth death, because it is subject to the Law of God, and the result is a revelation of sin. But, the mind set on the Spirit has peace, because it is no longer under the condemnation of the Law, since it is alive. The flesh can never please God, because it can never obey the Law, and is hostile at all times toward God.
Romans 8:9-10
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness."
I think this verse is a great way to conclude (even though there is much more I can say). But, I think it does an excellent job of confirming all that I have shown you regarding your questions, and puts to rest the fact that there clearly is a delineation between flesh and spirit.
:first:
Post #1 of 12
Let us examine a couple of things that Paul said to address the delineation between flesh and spirit.
Your flesh is defined in two different ways in his writings.
Obviously your body still functions, does it not? Yet Paul clearly states that your body is dead. (Romans 8:10)
I think that you would also agree that you still have flesh, and yet Paul affirms that you are NOT "in the flesh". (Rom 7:5), (Rom 8:9).
However, Paul also says that we are "in the flesh" (2 Cor. 10:3), (Phi 1:22-24)
Is Paul making a contradiction? Not at all! He is simply revealing the truth concerning the relationship that you have with God, and the suffering that takes place in this life while you await the redemption (exchange) of your body for a new one. (Romans 8:18-25)
The main reason that there is so much disagreement (and outright anger on my part, with those who bring a different gospel), is centered around the fact that I believe that the Spirit has already been redeemed, made perfect (Heb 10:14), sanctified (Heb 10:10), and complete (Col 2:10), and that you have received the very life of God (which is salvation), and are forever in fellowship with God. Many who are on this site do not believe that, and rather teach the idea that your salvation is predicated upon your ability to maintain a relationship with God through being faithful, confessing all your sins on a daily basis, modifying your behavior towards perfection and sanctification, and countless other tasks, traditions, rituals, and works.
In any case, let's look more closely at what happens when someone comes to Christ by grace through faith.
First of all Paul makes it clear that we have been crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6), (Gal 2:20), (Gal 5:24), (Gal 6:14). Therefore, we have died with Him (Rom 6:8), (Rom 7:6), (Col 2:20), (Col 3:3), (2 Tim 2:11). And we are no longer who we once were (1 Cor 6:11), (2 Cor 5:17), (Eph 4:24), (Col 3:10).
Those who are "in Christ" have been circumcised from the flesh (Col 2:11). So even though you still live on in the flesh, you no longer have a relationship with God according to the flesh. The flesh is dead to God, because you are now alive in the Spirit. And it is through the Spirit alone that you are in fellowship with God.
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me
Paul describes perfectly what we as believers go through on a daily basis while remaining in these dead bodies, and yet knowing that we are in fact alive in the spirit.
Romans 7:5-6
"For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter"
When you and I were bound to the Law, sin was aroused in our flesh bearing the fruit of death. Why? Because the only thing that your flesh can produce is that which is contrary to the Law. In Galatians 5, Paul describes the deeds of the flesh that are aroused through the Law: "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these". (Paul adds "things like these" just in case anyone had the notion to believe that they were not doing any of the things he actually listed ). Paul makes it clear that we are not bound to or under the Law, and that we now serve Christ in the Spirit, and not in the flesh.
Romans 7:7-8
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet." But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
The Law was given to reveal to each of us that we have sin. Why? Because sin is the indicator that you are dead to God, and in need of life. The Law shows you that you are dead; it leads you to life (Gal 3:22-26). However, once you have received life, you are dead to the Law, and alive to God.
Galatians 2:19
"For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God."
Paul continues...
Romans 7:9-11
And I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.
In 2 Corinthians 3, Paul refers to the 10 Commandments as the "ministry of death" and the "ministry of condemnation".
Jesus was born under the Law (Gal 4:4) and He used the Law to bring death and condemnation to all who believed that they were righteous through observing the Law...
"And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." He said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself." The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieved; for he was one who owned much property. And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." And when the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" And looking upon them Jesus said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible".
And again...
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart"
Any notion that people had that they were righteous under the Law was laid to rest by through Jesus ability to prove that it is impossible for men to have eternal life through the Law. As Paul affirms:
Galatians 2:21
"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
Galatians 3:21-22
"Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Paul continues...
Romans 7:12-13
"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."
Again we see that Paul confirms the purpose of the Law, to reveal how completely unrighteous we are, and that we are dead to God.
Romans 7:14-16
For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good.
Paul shows the struggle of his desire to do that which agrees with the Law, and yet, because of his flesh, he is only able to do those things that are contrary to the Law.... the very deeds of the flesh (Gal 5:19-21).
Romans 7:17-21
So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good.
Paul understands the clear distinction between who he is now in Christ, in the spirit, and not in the flesh. He goes as far as to affirm that the true Paul is not the flesh, but the new creation in Christ that has been made alive in the spirit. This is the real Paul even though he continues to live on in a body that is dead to God and filled with indwelling sin.
Paul makes certain to let the reader know that the flesh is incapable of doing good, even though he wishes it was so. And claims that he indeed practices evil, because it is present in his flesh, and will continue to be so (as noted in Rom 8) until it has been redeemed. Please note also that John makes it clear in 1 John 3:8 that " the one who practices sin is of the devil". Yet Paul affirms that his flesh practices sin. Is Paul of the devil? No, but his flesh is, because it is dead to God, but Paul is in the spirit, and no longer in the flesh.
Romans 7:22-23
For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Paul concludes that he is trapped by his desire to do good, and the fact that his body has indwelling sin which wages war against him, and he pleads to be set free!
Paul has good news...
"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Even though Paul has this desire to do good and that he is bound to the flesh that has indwelling sin, he can give thanks to Christ who has set him free from this body of death, and he is no longer under the condemnation of the Law.
Romans 8:1-2
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."
Again, we have been crucified with Christ, circumcised from the flesh, made alive in the spirit, and set free from sin and death.
Romans 8:3-4
"For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."
As we have already seen, the Law could not impart life, nor make anyone righteous. Therefore, God sent His Son to condemn (put an end to) sin in our flesh, so that the Law is fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit!
We are made fulfillers of the Law through Christ's life, not because we can now keep it through behavior modification, but because we have died with Him, and we now share in His life through the indwelling of the Spirit.
Romans 8:5-8
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
What are the "things of the flesh" that one would set their minds on. And what are the "things of the Spirit". We just read in Chapter 7 that when Paul set his mind on the flesh he found that in Him dwelt no good thing and that he has no choice but to practice the very evil that he does not wish. Paul knows that the mind set on the flesh can only bring forth death, because it is subject to the Law of God, and the result is a revelation of sin. But, the mind set on the Spirit has peace, because it is no longer under the condemnation of the Law, since it is alive. The flesh can never please God, because it can never obey the Law, and is hostile at all times toward God.
Romans 8:9-10
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness."
I think this verse is a great way to conclude (even though there is much more I can say). But, I think it does an excellent job of confirming all that I have shown you regarding your questions, and puts to rest the fact that there clearly is a delineation between flesh and spirit.
:first:
