Eternal suffering is not Literal

kjw47

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So can you.



Saying it doesn't make it so.



Jesus is called the Alpha and Omega.



Yes, He got His human nature from Mary. But His Father was God the Father.

That makes Him God by nature.

No God has a mortal parent. The name Jesus didnt exist in the OT. So who did God send?
 

JudgeRightly

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Those who teach eternal suffering are teaching there is life in death.

False.

We teach that those who are cast into the lake of fire are without life. It doesn't mean that they are annihilated. It doesn't mean they have life. It means that they will continue to exist apart from God.

One must have eternal life to suffer eternally if it were literal.

False dichotomy.

One does not have to have life in order to exist.

Yes Jesus went back to heaven and sat at the right hand of God-He did not sit at his own right hand.

Where did I say that He did?

I said that He, being God, went to sit at the right hand of His Father.

Three Persons, one God.

Your God would be insane if the trinity were true as one God.

Appeal to the stone is a logical fallacy.

At Rev 1:1 he said--Here me have a revelation, as well he prayed to himself.

Your mockery of scripture and of God will not go unpunished on judgment day, KJ. You need to repent.

No God has a mortal parent.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

The name Jesus didnt exist in the OT.

So what? Jesus is the English rendering of the Greek "IESOUS."

"IESOUS" is the Greek rendering of the Hebrew "YESHUA."

So who did God send?

God the Father sent God the Son to indwell human flesh.
 

kjw47

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False.

We teach that those who are cast into the lake of fire are without life. It doesn't mean that they are annihilated. It doesn't mean they have life. It means that they will continue to exist apart from God.



False dichotomy.

One does not have to have life in order to exist.



Where did I say that He did?

I said that He, being God, went to sit at the right hand of His Father.

Three Persons, one God.



Appeal to the stone is a logical fallacy.



Your mockery of scripture and of God will not go unpunished on judgment day, KJ. You need to repent.



Saying it doesn't make it so.



So what? Jesus is the English rendering of the Greek "IESOUS."

"IESOUS" is the Greek rendering of the Hebrew "YESHUA."



God the Father sent God the Son to indwell human flesh.

Sad thinking.
Nowhere does the bible say God the son. Its you who need to relook. My 8 teachings from Jesus shows who is who. Those teachings back my teachers not yours. Who will you believe Jesus or your teachers, they contradict one another. It will be a clear picture to God who you follow.
 

JudgeRightly

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Sad thinking.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Nowhere does the bible say God the son.

I never said the Bible says "God the Son."

In other words, quit with the straw man arguments.

Its you who need to relook.

False.

My 8 teachings from Jesus shows who is who.

Indeed. They show Him to be God.

Those teachings back my teachers not yours.

No, they don't, and saying it doesn't make it so.

Who will you believe Jesus or your teachers,

I believe Jesus, who claims to be God.

they contradict one another.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

It will be a clear picture to God who you follow.

It's clear that you don't follow the God of the Bible.

You put C. Russell and J. Rutherford above Scripture.
 

kjw47

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Saying it doesn't make it so.



I never said the Bible says "God the Son."

In other words, quit with the straw man arguments.



False.



Indeed. They show Him to be God.



No, they don't, and saying it doesn't make it so.



I believe Jesus, who claims to be God.



Saying it doesn't make it so.



It's clear that you don't follow the God of the Bible.

You put C. Russell and J. Rutherford above Scripture.

In my OP it shows he is not God, it shows he pointed all to his Father not to himself. How many days in your existence did you believe Jesus? And your heart instruct your mind to seek YHWH(Jehovahs) righteousness first? i already know the answer.
 

Arthur Brain

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It is justice.
So will an eternity in hell/lake of fire be for disobeying God.
You get a just punishment or just reward.
No, it isn't and one can only presume you aren't a parent for even uttering such vile tripe. A loving parent wouldn't dream of saying as you have but a loveless legalist well might.
 

Arthur Brain

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I didn't come up with it. Someone else did.



I was literally agreeing with you in my previous post. Now you're saying you were wrong?



The place where God isn't.

That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.



People who reject God will be happier for eternity there in the place that God isn't than if they were to be forced to live with Him for eternity.

God casting people into the lake of fire is Him facilitating their going to that place.

The decision to go there is made final at the time of one's death.

You say my analogy doesn't work, yet even you agree that it would be wrong for someone to force someone else to live with him, and to not allow them escape. So why would it be OK for God to force those who don't want to be in God's presence, who hate Him, to be remain in His presence for all eternity?



Corinthians agrees with Romans 1 and Psalm 19. I'm not sure why you're trying to pit scripture against scripture.
Well, whoever came up with it wasn't thinking too much.

Love doesn't cast off forever and your "hating God" spiel is as predictable as it is nonsensical. People are not "hating God" for having different beliefs or doubts on the score as you. It might make it easier for you to judge people that way but 'it doesn't make it so'.
 

JudgeRightly

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In my OP it shows he is not God,

No, it doesn't.

it shows he pointed all to his Father not to himself.

Since you went there... The entire focus of Jesus' message was Himself.

Spoiler

What does the Bible say about the deity of Christ? For centuries, as affirmed at the Council of Nicea, Christians have used a wonderful list of verses to demonstrate from God's Word the deity of Jesus Christ. Here is another very different approach to show the same truth. (This is similar to the "Big Picture" approach used in the overview of the Bible called The Plot.)

Thus Saith the Lord: If we count how many times the Old Testament prophets said, "Thus says the Lord" we find them using that phrase, in the New King James Version of the Bible, about 420 times. The New Testament on the other hand, never once records that phrase. Jesus Christ, with all the red ink devoted to recording His words, never once used that ubiquitous phrase, "Thus saith the Lord." Rather, Jesus proclaims, "I say to you," in the Gospels! Not a single "Thus says the Lord," but rather, "I say to you," 135 times. The following chart demonstrates biblically that these two phrases, Thus saith the Lord, and I say unto you, indicate the same thing, that God is speaking. For Jesus Christ made it clear that He Himself was at the heart of His message. Unlike the righteous priests and kings, prophets and the apostles, the Lord came to teach us about Himself:

Christ's Self-focus:

  • "Follow Me" 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22
  • Pray and act "in My name" 18x Mt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24, 26; Acts 9:15
  • "the Holy Spirit" comes "in My name" Jn. 14:26
  • "for My name's sake" leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5x Mt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16
  • Believe in the "name of the… Son" and "in the Son" 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and "in Him [Jesus]" 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31
  • "believe in Me" 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15-16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20
  • You "are sanctified by faith in Me" Acts 26:18
  • Live "in Me" Jn. 11:26
  • "come after Me" Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27
  • Abide "in Me" Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 "abide in Me" or else Jn. 15:6 "abide in My love" Jn. 15:9-10
  • "where two or three are gathered" Jesus is "there in the midst of them" Mt. 18:20
  • So too: "I [Jesus, will abide] in you" Jn. 15:4-5
  • "know that I am He" Jn. 8:28 or "if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins" Jn. 8:24
  • Do things "for My sake" Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life "for My sake" 4x Mt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22
  • "I never knew you, depart from Me" Mt. 7:23
  • "I am willing; be cleansed" Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41
  • "confess Me" Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8
  • Do not deny "Me" 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38
  • Do not be "ashamed of Me" Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"
  • "love Me" 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23-24, 28
  • Do not reject "Me" Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Lk. 11:23
  • Love Me "more than" your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]
  • "I… have loved you" Jn. 15:9, 12
  • Be "worthy of Me" Mt. 10:37-38
  • "Come to Me" 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37
  • "I will give you rest" Mt. 11:28
  • "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" Mt. 11:30
  • I am "greater than the temple" "than Jonah" "than Solomon" Mt. 12:6, 41-42
  • I am "Lord even of the Sabbath" Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]
  • Thus He says keep "My commandments" 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12
  • "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you" Jn. 15:14
  • "keep My word" Jn. 14:23-24
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Mt. 12:30
  • The angels are "His angels" Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands "His angels" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • The kingdom is "His kingdom" Mt. 13:41 and He calls it "My kingdom" Lk. 22:30
  • Jesus called it "My church" Mt. 16:18 and believers are "My sheep" Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are "His elect" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • Paul is a "vessel of Mine to bear My name" Acts 9:15
  • "all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine" Jn. 17:10
  • "My peace I give" Jn. 14:27 "in Me you may have peace" Jn. 16:33
  • "My joy" should fill you Jn. 15:11
  • "Who do men say that I am?" Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 "who do you say that I am?" Mt. 16:15
  • Receive "Me" Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48
  • Heaven and earth will pass away but "My words" will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33
  • Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19
  • "you belong to Christ" Mk. 9:41
  • Hear "My sayings" and do them Lk. 6:47
  • Jesus has "His own glory" Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is "glorified" 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31-32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]
  • "He who hears you hears Me" Lk. 10:16
  • Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary Lk. 19:37-40
  • Return "to Me" Lk. 22:32
  • Be "My disciple" Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to "be My disciple" Lk. 14:33 "you are My disciples" Jn. 13:35
  • "I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit" Jn. 15:26; 16:7
  • The Holy Spirit "will testify of Me" Jn. 15:26
  • We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that "the Scriptures… testify of Me" Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]
  • "You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me" Jn. 15:27
  • Paul gives "testimony concerning Me" Acts 22:18; 23:11
  • "the Son gives life to whom He will" Jn. 5:21
  • "seek Me" Jn. 6:26
  • Serve "Me" Jn. 12:26
  • "all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father" Jn. 5:23
  • "I am the bread of life," "of heaven," "of God" Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51
  • Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe in Him Jn. 6:36 [56]
  • Drink "My blood" and eat "My flesh" Jn. 6:53-54, 56
  • "I will raise him up at the last day" Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection
  • "The world… hates Me" Jn. 7:7
  • "I am the light of the world" Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
  • "I bear witness of Myself" Jn. 8:13-14, 18
  • "know… Jesus Christ" for "eternal life" Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]
  • "the Son makes you free" Jn. 8:36
  • "Abraham rejoiced to see My day" Jn. 8:56; "Before Abraham was, I AM" Jn. 8:58
  • Of believers, Christ said, "I know them" Jn. 10:27
  • "I give them eternal life" Jn. 10:28
  • "I am the resurrection and the life" Jn. 11:25
  • I "will draw all peoples to Myself" Jn. 12:32
  • "I will… receive you to Myself" Jn. 14:3
  • Be "Mine" Jn. 14:24
  • "I am the vine" Jn. 15:5
  • "without Me you can do nothing" Jn. 15:5
  • "Because I live, you will live also." Jn. 14:19
  • "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you" Jn. 15:16
  • Those who oppress Christians are "persecuting Me" Acts 9:4-5; 22:7-8; 26:14-15
  • "because they have not known… Me" Jn. 16:3
  • The Spirit "will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it" Jn. 16:14
  • "All things that the Father has are Mine" Jn. 16:15
  • "Whatever He [the Father] does, the Son does" Jn. 5:19
  • "the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me" Jn. 16:27
  • "If I will that he remain" Jn. 21:22
  • "I have overcome the world" Jn. 16:33
  • "I am the way" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the truth" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the life" Jn. 14:6
  • "I will… manifest Myself" Jn. 14:21

Scores of times Jesus uses the personal pronoun My with words like commandments, sake, words, lambs, sheep, peace, love, joy, voice, name, sayings, kingdom, angels, and church. Three examples powerfully illustrate the point. First, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day..." Secondly, "I know My sheep, and am known by My own." And thirdly, "Assuredly, I say to you... Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." The prophets and John were the messengers; Jesus is the Message, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and put Himself at the center of His message, because He is God.


The Forest for the Trees: A simple overview of Christ's message shows overwhelmingly that He is the Message. To paraphrase Greg Koukl from The John 10:10 Project, "You can take Buddha out and still have Buddhism, or take the prophet out and still have Allah, but if you take Jesus out you don't have Christianity any more." Jesus is either a blasphemer or God Himself. The above list comes from His words. We could make a similar list of Christ as the message using the remainder of the New Testament. And additionally, strong individual verses also show the Deity of Christ. The powerful and traditional proof texts show His deity even more effectively when presented alongside the big picture above of the ministry and message of Jesus Christ.

The Traditional Passages Showing Christ's Deity: Most of the primary verses with a sampling of the many others showing that, like the Father, Jesus is...
- Called God: John 1:1 with v. 14; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1; Luke 1:16-17
- From Everlasting: Ps. 90:2 with Micah 5:2
- Receiving worship: Mat. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6 (etc., 10x) with Ex. 34:14; Acts 10:25-26 & Rev. 19:10
- Forgiving/Delegating Power to Forgive: Mat. 6:9, 12 with Jn. 20:23; Luke 5:20; Mark 2:5-11 & 1 Jn. 1:7-9
- Omniscient: John 10:15; 2:24-25 21:17
- Omnipresent: Ps. 139:7-10 with Mat. 18:20 & 28:20
- Omnipotent: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
- Immutable: Mal. 3:6 with Hebrews 13:8
- The exact equivalent
in nature: Heb. 1:3; Phil 2:6 doesn't rob the Father to see Christ as His equal
in fullness: Col. 2:9 (in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead")
in glory: Isa. 45:25 with Gal. 6:14 and John 1:14; etc.
to whom every knee shalll bow: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:10
to whom every tongue shall confess: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:11 and Rom. 14:10-11
as the Almighty: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
as Creator: Isa. 45:5-7, 18 with John 1:3 and Col. 1:16-17
as Savior: Isa. 45:21 and Luke 1:47 with Titus 3:6; 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:11; 1 John 4:14
as searcher of hearts: Ps. 139:23-24 with John 2:24-25 & Rev. 2:18-19, 23
as possessor of the everlasting kingdom: Dan. 7:13-14
as King of Kings: Rev. 19:16 with Dan. 2:47 and Isa. 33:22
as Lawgiver: James 4:12
as Judge: Ps. 9:7-8; 50:6 & 75:7; Isa. 33:22; 66:16; Heb. 12:23 with John 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom. 2:16; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8
as Jehovah: Isa. 40:3 with Mat. 3:3; and Isa. 8:13-14 with 1 Pet. 2:7-8; Mat. 21:42; Mk. 12:10.

The Deity of Christ and Eternal Separation: Two doctrines, the afterlife of eternal separation from God in hell, and that of the deity of Christ, are inextricably linked. Therefore many of those who deny the deity of Christ, including Jehovah's Witnesses, Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church, Ronald Hubbard's Scientology, and Christian Science, also deny an afterlife of eternal separation from God. Why? God put eternity in our hearts (Eccl. 3:11; Ps. 148:5-6) and so only a payment of infinite worth, something greater than the eternal futures of billions of human beings, could suffice to pay the price for our combined sin. When false teachers dismiss eternal punishment in Hades, they then fail to see the necessity of a Sacrifice of infinite worth.

Jesus Is God: The dramatic contrast in the above chart shows Christ's self-presentation compared to the angels and prophets who present God to the world. These other messengers elevated not themselves, but God. They focused attention not on themselves but on Him. Godly priests, kings, and apostles presented God as their motivating message, of course, and not themselves. Jesus, on the other hand, came speaking about Himself. His most oft used, favorite title for Himself, undoubtedly selected also to communicate His mission, is not the "Son of God", but the "Son of Man". For, eternally He was the Son of God, but being the Son of Man was new to Him and uniquely cherished. God the Son submits Himself to the Father, willingly, not as a sign of a lesser God, but of His greatness. For as He lowers Himself, He is exalted to the central truth of Creation! (See the above chart.) Thus His "I say unto you" is the Scripture's "Thus Saith the Lord"!

Three in the Bible: God exists as three persons in one Godhead, whom we refer to as the Trinity. Thus human beings made in His image also have a triune nature, and the cosmos itself is understood in threes, in the most fantastic ways. Before considering this, first see the Bible's extraordinary use of this number. Christ was three days in the tomb, which Jonah's three days foreshadowed, as did Abraham's three days of thinking that he would sacrifice his son Isaac on that same hill called Golgotha and Mt. Moriah (Gen. 22:14; 2 Chron. 3:1). Israel's three patriarchs are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The priestly tribe of Levi is from Jacob's third child (Gen. 29:34), as Leviticus is the third book of the Bible. And the day the law was given, the sons of Levi killed "about three thousand men" (Ex. 32:28), whereas the day the Spirit was given, "that day about three thousand souls were [saved]" (Acts 2:41; and see 2 Cor. 3:6). The Hebrew Scriptures comprise three sections, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings (Luke 24:44), and God created three archangels. The most noteworthy women are Eve, Sarah, and Mary. The magi brought gold, frankincense and myrrh. Three persons (one being the Son) started their public service at thirty years of age: Joseph (Gen. 41:46), a deliverer of his people; David (2 Sam. 5:4) seated on the messianic throne (2 Sam. 7:12-13); and "Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age" (Luke 3:23). God could have led Esther to fast for two days, or four; and He could have kept Jonah in the whale for one day, or a week, but three days and three nights prefigures God’s plan of salvation for Christ's time in the grave. For Jesus "rose again the third day according to the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:4). And thus, the triune Christian God, the mystery of the Trinity, Three Persons in One God, is the one God whose testimony we can trust (answering both the philosophical problem of the origin of the one and the many, and Euthyphro's Dilemma by Socrates), having imprinted our world and even ourselves with His triune nature.

Threes Everywhere: The number three manifested in Scripture turns the Christian's attention outward to see space existing in three dimensions, height, width, and length, as does time in past, present and future. The electromagnetic force operates in positive, negative, and neutral, and in pigment the three primary colors are red, yellow, and blue whereas in light they are red, green, and blue which three blend into the hues of the rainbow. We human beings on this third planet from the Sun experience matter primarily in three states, solid, liquid, and gas. The strongest shape for building is the triangle. Writers often give three examples and artists group in threes as in interior design, sculpting, and even movie directors, as they have the word trilogy (1, 2, 3) but no word for any other number of films. Photographers use the rule of thirds and the language of DNA uses only three-letter words. Everything reinforces the triune aspect of all of existence, a reflection of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. See more at kgov.com/3.

Tripartite Man: And so we humans are body, soul, and spirit (1 Thes. 5:23). For God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness…" (Gen. 1:26). So mankind is made in God's image and likeness, image referring to our form, and likeness to our essence as sentient, morally-responsible persons. And unlike animals which look to the ground, men and women stand upright with a heavenly gaze.

God's Image: God created a form, that is, an image, for the eternal Son to indwell. The verses Jehovah's Witnesses assume undermine Christ's deity are actually verses describing this aspect of Him at the creation. For the very first thing that God created was this form for His Son to indwell! (See Gen. 1:26 along with Col. 1:15; Rev. 3:14: Heb. 1:3; 5:5; 10:5; 2 Cor. 4:4; John 1:14; Phil. 2:5-6; 1 Tim. 2:5; and Rev. 1:13-18. When a son is "born" isn't the beginning of his existence anymore than when by taking up an image the Son became the "firstborn" of creation, was the beginning of His existence.) And in that image, "He made man" (Gen. 9:6), and not in the image of apes. "So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them (Gen. 1:27).

The Plurality in God: The very first verse of Genesis presents the plurality of God, with Genesis 1:1 using a plural subject and a singular verb, that is, In the beginning gods He created the heavens and the earth. Elohim is the plural of the typical Hebrew word for God, which is El (cherub and seraph for example become plural as cherubim and seraphim, with Elah likely being the dual form, and Elohim being a plurality, in this case, three for the triune God). So, did Moses make a grammatical error in the first sentence of the first book of Scripture, in what has become not only the world's best-selling book, but in the most well-known sentence in the history of the world by using a singular verb with a plural subject? Of course not. For this was intentional. The Hebrew Scriptures in the most solemn texts presents God as a unified plurality. What grammarians refer to as the "royal we" comes from God's references to Himself using the plural: "Let Us make man in Our image," (Gen. 1:26). The solemn Hebrew prayer, called the Shema Yisroel, to the "one God" uses another plurality. For "The Lord our God, the Lord is One (of plurality)" at Deuteronomy 6:4 uses neither of the expected terms, yachad or even bad, words meaning a singularity, but God's Word uses the word echad, which is one in plurality as used by God at the Tower of Babel, "the people are one," and by Joseph "the dreams of Pharaoh are one," and by Moses, "the people answered with one voice," and back again to the beginning of Genesis at the institution of marriage when God says, "and they shall become one flesh." So this foundation prayer to God does not the use the Hebrew words for one, which mean a singularity (which words are never used in the Bible referring to God), but God describes Himself in the Bible using the One of plurality. So the Shema says: the Jehovah (who is the one God) our Elohim (plural) Jehovah is a Plural Unity! And Deuteronomy 6:4 is the central passage to all theology of God. Then the Scriptures go on to teach that the three Persons of the Trinity are God the Father (Isa. 63:16; Mal. 2:10), God the Son (Ps. 2:12; Zech. 12:10 and as in the chart above), and God the Spirit (Gen. 1:2; Isa. 48:16; Isa. 6:3; Rom. 5:5). See also Mat. 28:19; Acts 5:3-4, 9; 2 Cor. 13:14, and Psalm 110:1 with Matthew 22:41-46, and verses that show the personhood of the Spirit including Heb. 10:15-17.

The Mystery in the Godhead: How can one God exist in three persons? Christian theologians have long described this as a mystery, but it is an expected mystery. Virtually everything, deep down, is a mystery. What is light (with its wave-particle duality)? What is life (with modern biology unable to agree on a definition)? What is matter (that it leaves modern physics bewildered)? What is space? What is energy? What is time? What is movement? (Is it a series of discrete stationary states?) How can the Creator bring the universe into existence from nothing? How can your non-physical spirit be attached to your physical body? How can God exist from the beginningless past? How can creatures procreate and bring everlasting beings into existence? In humility we acknowledge that virtually everything in the creation is a deep, almost unfathomable mystery. How much more mysterious would be the God who made us? If Christianity taught that there are three Gods in One God, that would be a contradiction, and by the laws of logic, therefore false. For 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 and each 1 would be 1/3rd of the whole, which is anathema to trinitarian theology. But by analogizing God with math we see that the number line lacks sufficient multidimensionality and points us to the 3-dimensionality of space and an appropriate anaology wherein 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. And likewise, if Christianity taught that there are three Persons in One Person, that also would be false. But Christianity teaches that there are three Persons in One God, and while being a deep mystery (what isn't?), that is no contradiction.

And finally, denial of Christ's deity is a central teaching of many of today's cults, including for example the Jehovah's Witnesses. This denial goes hand-in-glove with the rejection of eternality of hell. Also, not understanding the plurality of the Godhead creates philosophical dilemmas such as the problem of the one and the many. And Socrates' pre-Christian argument against God called Euthyphro's Dilemma is resolved by none of the world's religions except for the Christian Answer to Euthyphro in the eternal corroborating testimony of the three Witnesses of the Trinity.

Bob Enyart's Gospel of John Bible study...
-Bob Enyart, KGOV.com
Pastor, Denver Bible Church




How many days in your existence did you believe Jesus?

Red herring.

And your heart instruct your mind to seek YHWH(Jehovahs) righteousness first? i already know the answer.

Irrelevant. You're trying to make this about me, and not the evidence.
 

JudgeRightly

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Well, whoever came up with it wasn't thinking too much.

Ad hominem.

Love doesn't cast off forever

Again, God's patience is not infinite. He will not wait forever for someone to turn to Him.

and your "hating God" spiel

Jesus said the following:

“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. - Matthew 6:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew6:24&version=NKJV

He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad. - Matthew 12:30 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew12:30&version=NKJV

Was that a spiel? Or was that truth?

is as predictable as it is nonsensical.

Fallacies do not make an argument.

People are not "hating God" for having different beliefs or doubts on the score as you.

People who do not love God hate Him, because they cannot have two masters.

It might make it easier for you to judge people that way but 'it doesn't make it so'.

Jesus said it, thus it IS so.
 

Arthur Brain

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Ad hominem.



Again, God's patience is not infinite. He will not wait forever for someone to turn to Him.



Jesus said the following:

“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. - Matthew 6:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew6:24&version=NKJV

He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad. - Matthew 12:30 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew12:30&version=NKJV

Was that a spiel? Or was that truth?



Fallacies do not make an argument.



People who do not love God hate Him, because they cannot have two masters.



Jesus said it, thus it IS so.
An observation is hardly an ad hominem. It wasn't well thought out at all, simple as that and poorly worded also. The 'grabbing woman' part especially in either scenario.

God's patience - and love - is not yours to limit.

Lot's of verses can be used to suit positions but the spiel is on those who often do so. There's many an atheist who shows more love to their fellow man than a believer by way of. You've condemned homeless people in the past as 'bums' on here without any clue as to why they're in such a position, their background, circumstances or anything. It led me to ask you if Lazarus was a bum if you remember?

People who doubt the existence of God or have a different belief to you are not "hating" God no matter how many times you might repeat the same.
 

JudgeRightly

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An observation is hardly an ad hominem. It wasn't well thought out at all, simple as that and poorly worded also. The 'grabbing woman' part especially in either scenario.

:yawn:

God's patience - and love - is not yours to limit.

I'm not. The Bible is what tells us they're limited.

Lot's of verses can be used to suit positions but the spiel is on those who often do so.

Jesus meant what He said.

There's many an atheist who shows more love to their fellow man than a believer by way of.

Don't change the subject.

We're talking about loving God, not men.

You've condemned homeless people in the past as 'bums' on here without any clue as to why they're in such a position, their background, circumstances or anything. It led me to ask you if Lazarus was a bum if you remember?

Red herring. Don't change the subject.

We're talking about men loving God or hating Him.

People who doubt the existence of God

Psalm 19 provides the evidence that will be used against such people on judgement day.

or have a different belief to you

My beliefs have nothing to do with this. Don't make this personal, Arty.

are not "hating" God no matter how many times you might repeat the same.

People who reject God hate Him, by definition.
 

Arthur Brain

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:yawn:



I'm not. The Bible is what tells us they're limited.



Jesus meant what He said.



Don't change the subject.

We're talking about loving God, not men.



Red herring. Don't change the subject.

We're talking about men loving God or hating Him.



Psalm 19 provides the evidence that will be used against such people on judgement day.



My beliefs have nothing to do with this. Don't make this personal, Arty.



People who reject God hate Him, by definition.
You can yawn all ya like, it's a feeble scenario and badly composed.

If you show little to no compassion to your fellow man then you aren't 'loving God' by association. Folk who snootily look down their noses at others don't fare very well in the Bible do they?

You can repeat your 'hating God' spiel ad nausea and it amounts to nothing but your own judgmental take on folk as fallible and human as you are. I'll trust an omnipotent loving God to make His own decisions.
 

JudgeRightly

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You can yawn all ya like, it's a feeble scenario and badly composed.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

If you show little to no compassion to your fellow man then you aren't 'loving God' by association. Folk who snootily look down their noses at others don't fare very well in the Bible do they?

Still trying to make it personal.

You can repeat your 'hating God' spiel ad nausea and it amounts to nothing but your own judgmental take on folk as fallible and human as you are.

:yawn:

I'll trust an omnipotent loving God to make His own decisions.

God tells us what decisions he makes. He tells us that He will send those who reject Him to everlasting separation from Him.
 

Hoping

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Any can twist things into oblivion. Since its 100% fact, Jesus is not God, because the bible teaches God sent another who was called Gods son, not God. God always was and always will be. The man Jesus had a mortal mother.
Jesus was the Word made flesh, not the Father made flesh.
 

Hoping

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No, it isn't and one can only presume you aren't a parent for even uttering such vile tripe. A loving parent wouldn't dream of saying as you have but a loveless legalist well might.
Justice is viewed differently from differing perspectives.
The loved ones of a cop killer will never see a death penalty as justice.
But the loved ones of the cop will.
(generalities, to be sure)
 

Lawson

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I get your aversion to the first man grabbing the woman. It shows your conscience isn't completely seared.
We are on the same page.
A man cannot grab the woman who loves him?
Not without her specific permission each and every time. Loving someone does not include an automatic license over your person.
This is the Religion section, not Politics.
You are a fair cop.
The point of the analogy is to show you that God is the second man, healthy in his mind, who will allow the woman to, if she so chooses, leave him, and that He is not the first man, who keeps people against their will.
Maybe the analogy will be stronger if both times the woman loved the man. Although I thought the mans house was suppose to be heaven.
God will not keep people against their will, He will not force them to live in heaven for all of eternity with Him, since they hate Him.
There is something bewtween love and hate.
So where is God supposed to put those people?
Send them back to where the were before birth?
 

JudgeRightly

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Not without her specific permission each and every time. Loving someone does not include an automatic license over your person.

Not really part of the analogy. Instead of picking apart the analogy, you could learn from it.

Maybe the analogy will be stronger if both times the woman loved the man.

Why? If both times the woman loved the man, then there would be nothing inherently wrong with him preventing her leaving.

The other point of the analogy is that love cannot be forced. You cannot force someone to love you. In the same way, God cannot force someone to love Him. Love must be, repeat MUST BE, freely given.

If the woman is UNABLE to not love the man, then it's not love to begin with.

Although I thought the mans house was suppose to be heaven.

The house is just an analogy for a location.

It can be either heaven or hell, but what it is is dependent on whether the person wants to be there or not.

If the woman did not like the man, but he kept her in his house, and prevented her from leaving the house, even if the house was supposed to signify "Heaven," for the woman, it would be utter hell.

On the other hand, in such a situation, if the woman didn't love the man, but he allowed her to leave, then instead of her staying in what she would consider hell, but what a woman who loved the man would consider heaven, the first woman's "heaven" is not the house, but is instead, heaven for her is being allowed to leave.

Likewise, if the woman did love the man, heaven would be inside the house with him, and hell would be apart from him. In the same way, God is not a sadist, and will not force someone to live with Him for eternity, because it would turn heaven into hell.

There is something between love and hate.

Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. You either love the one and hate the other, or you despise the one and love the other. He also said you are either with Him, or against Him.

Send them back to where the were before birth?

To their mother's womb? What good would that do?
 

TomO

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Any can twist things into oblivion. Since its 100% fact, Jesus is not God, because the bible teaches God sent another who was called Gods son, not God. God always was and always will be. The man Jesus had a mortal mother.
Well it's a good start that you let your ignorance inform your ignorance... I suppose. 😑
 

kjw47

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No, it doesn't.



Since you went there... The entire focus of Jesus' message was Himself.

Spoiler

What does the Bible say about the deity of Christ? For centuries, as affirmed at the Council of Nicea, Christians have used a wonderful list of verses to demonstrate from God's Word the deity of Jesus Christ. Here is another very different approach to show the same truth. (This is similar to the "Big Picture" approach used in the overview of the Bible called The Plot.)

Thus Saith the Lord: If we count how many times the Old Testament prophets said, "Thus says the Lord" we find them using that phrase, in the New King James Version of the Bible, about 420 times. The New Testament on the other hand, never once records that phrase. Jesus Christ, with all the red ink devoted to recording His words, never once used that ubiquitous phrase, "Thus saith the Lord." Rather, Jesus proclaims, "I say to you," in the Gospels! Not a single "Thus says the Lord," but rather, "I say to you," 135 times. The following chart demonstrates biblically that these two phrases, Thus saith the Lord, and I say unto you, indicate the same thing, that God is speaking. For Jesus Christ made it clear that He Himself was at the heart of His message. Unlike the righteous priests and kings, prophets and the apostles, the Lord came to teach us about Himself:

Christ's Self-focus:

  • "Follow Me" 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22
  • Pray and act "in My name" 18x Mt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24, 26; Acts 9:15
  • "the Holy Spirit" comes "in My name" Jn. 14:26
  • "for My name's sake" leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5x Mt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16
  • Believe in the "name of the… Son" and "in the Son" 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and "in Him [Jesus]" 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31
  • "believe in Me" 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15-16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20
  • You "are sanctified by faith in Me" Acts 26:18
  • Live "in Me" Jn. 11:26
  • "come after Me" Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27
  • Abide "in Me" Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 "abide in Me" or else Jn. 15:6 "abide in My love" Jn. 15:9-10
  • "where two or three are gathered" Jesus is "there in the midst of them" Mt. 18:20
  • So too: "I [Jesus, will abide] in you" Jn. 15:4-5
  • "know that I am He" Jn. 8:28 or "if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins" Jn. 8:24
  • Do things "for My sake" Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life "for My sake" 4x Mt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22
  • "I never knew you, depart from Me" Mt. 7:23
  • "I am willing; be cleansed" Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41
  • "confess Me" Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8
  • Do not deny "Me" 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38
  • Do not be "ashamed of Me" Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"
  • "love Me" 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23-24, 28
  • Do not reject "Me" Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Lk. 11:23
  • Love Me "more than" your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]
  • "I… have loved you" Jn. 15:9, 12
  • Be "worthy of Me" Mt. 10:37-38
  • "Come to Me" 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37
  • "I will give you rest" Mt. 11:28
  • "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" Mt. 11:30
  • I am "greater than the temple" "than Jonah" "than Solomon" Mt. 12:6, 41-42
  • I am "Lord even of the Sabbath" Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]
  • Thus He says keep "My commandments" 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12
  • "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you" Jn. 15:14
  • "keep My word" Jn. 14:23-24
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Mt. 12:30
  • The angels are "His angels" Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands "His angels" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • The kingdom is "His kingdom" Mt. 13:41 and He calls it "My kingdom" Lk. 22:30
  • Jesus called it "My church" Mt. 16:18 and believers are "My sheep" Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are "His elect" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • Paul is a "vessel of Mine to bear My name" Acts 9:15
  • "all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine" Jn. 17:10
  • "My peace I give" Jn. 14:27 "in Me you may have peace" Jn. 16:33
  • "My joy" should fill you Jn. 15:11
  • "Who do men say that I am?" Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 "who do you say that I am?" Mt. 16:15
  • Receive "Me" Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48
  • Heaven and earth will pass away but "My words" will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33
  • Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19
  • "you belong to Christ" Mk. 9:41
  • Hear "My sayings" and do them Lk. 6:47
  • Jesus has "His own glory" Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is "glorified" 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31-32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]
  • "He who hears you hears Me" Lk. 10:16
  • Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary Lk. 19:37-40
  • Return "to Me" Lk. 22:32
  • Be "My disciple" Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to "be My disciple" Lk. 14:33 "you are My disciples" Jn. 13:35
  • "I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit" Jn. 15:26; 16:7
  • The Holy Spirit "will testify of Me" Jn. 15:26
  • We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that "the Scriptures… testify of Me" Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]
  • "You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me" Jn. 15:27
  • Paul gives "testimony concerning Me" Acts 22:18; 23:11
  • "the Son gives life to whom He will" Jn. 5:21
  • "seek Me" Jn. 6:26
  • Serve "Me" Jn. 12:26
  • "all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father" Jn. 5:23
  • "I am the bread of life," "of heaven," "of God" Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51
  • Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe in Him Jn. 6:36 [56]
  • Drink "My blood" and eat "My flesh" Jn. 6:53-54, 56
  • "I will raise him up at the last day" Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection
  • "The world… hates Me" Jn. 7:7
  • "I am the light of the world" Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
  • "I bear witness of Myself" Jn. 8:13-14, 18
  • "know… Jesus Christ" for "eternal life" Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]
  • "the Son makes you free" Jn. 8:36
  • "Abraham rejoiced to see My day" Jn. 8:56; "Before Abraham was, I AM" Jn. 8:58
  • Of believers, Christ said, "I know them" Jn. 10:27
  • "I give them eternal life" Jn. 10:28
  • "I am the resurrection and the life" Jn. 11:25
  • I "will draw all peoples to Myself" Jn. 12:32
  • "I will… receive you to Myself" Jn. 14:3
  • Be "Mine" Jn. 14:24
  • "I am the vine" Jn. 15:5
  • "without Me you can do nothing" Jn. 15:5
  • "Because I live, you will live also." Jn. 14:19
  • "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you" Jn. 15:16
  • Those who oppress Christians are "persecuting Me" Acts 9:4-5; 22:7-8; 26:14-15
  • "because they have not known… Me" Jn. 16:3
  • The Spirit "will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it" Jn. 16:14
  • "All things that the Father has are Mine" Jn. 16:15
  • "Whatever He [the Father] does, the Son does" Jn. 5:19
  • "the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me" Jn. 16:27
  • "If I will that he remain" Jn. 21:22
  • "I have overcome the world" Jn. 16:33
  • "I am the way" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the truth" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the life" Jn. 14:6
  • "I will… manifest Myself" Jn. 14:21

Scores of times Jesus uses the personal pronoun My with words like commandments, sake, words, lambs, sheep, peace, love, joy, voice, name, sayings, kingdom, angels, and church. Three examples powerfully illustrate the point. First, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day..." Secondly, "I know My sheep, and am known by My own." And thirdly, "Assuredly, I say to you... Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." The prophets and John were the messengers; Jesus is the Message, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and put Himself at the center of His message, because He is God.


The Forest for the Trees: A simple overview of Christ's message shows overwhelmingly that He is the Message. To paraphrase Greg Koukl from The John 10:10 Project, "You can take Buddha out and still have Buddhism, or take the prophet out and still have Allah, but if you take Jesus out you don't have Christianity any more." Jesus is either a blasphemer or God Himself. The above list comes from His words. We could make a similar list of Christ as the message using the remainder of the New Testament. And additionally, strong individual verses also show the Deity of Christ. The powerful and traditional proof texts show His deity even more effectively when presented alongside the big picture above of the ministry and message of Jesus Christ.

The Traditional Passages Showing Christ's Deity: Most of the primary verses with a sampling of the many others showing that, like the Father, Jesus is...
- Called God: John 1:1 with v. 14; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1; Luke 1:16-17
- From Everlasting: Ps. 90:2 with Micah 5:2
- Receiving worship: Mat. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6 (etc., 10x) with Ex. 34:14; Acts 10:25-26 & Rev. 19:10
- Forgiving/Delegating Power to Forgive: Mat. 6:9, 12 with Jn. 20:23; Luke 5:20; Mark 2:5-11 & 1 Jn. 1:7-9
- Omniscient: John 10:15; 2:24-25 21:17
- Omnipresent: Ps. 139:7-10 with Mat. 18:20 & 28:20
- Omnipotent: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
- Immutable: Mal. 3:6 with Hebrews 13:8
- The exact equivalent
in nature: Heb. 1:3; Phil 2:6 doesn't rob the Father to see Christ as His equal
in fullness: Col. 2:9 (in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead")
in glory: Isa. 45:25 with Gal. 6:14 and John 1:14; etc.
to whom every knee shalll bow: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:10
to whom every tongue shall confess: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:11 and Rom. 14:10-11
as the Almighty: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
as Creator: Isa. 45:5-7, 18 with John 1:3 and Col. 1:16-17
as Savior: Isa. 45:21 and Luke 1:47 with Titus 3:6; 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:11; 1 John 4:14
as searcher of hearts: Ps. 139:23-24 with John 2:24-25 & Rev. 2:18-19, 23
as possessor of the everlasting kingdom: Dan. 7:13-14
as King of Kings: Rev. 19:16 with Dan. 2:47 and Isa. 33:22
as Lawgiver: James 4:12
as Judge: Ps. 9:7-8; 50:6 & 75:7; Isa. 33:22; 66:16; Heb. 12:23 with John 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom. 2:16; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8
as Jehovah: Isa. 40:3 with Mat. 3:3; and Isa. 8:13-14 with 1 Pet. 2:7-8; Mat. 21:42; Mk. 12:10.

The Deity of Christ and Eternal Separation: Two doctrines, the afterlife of eternal separation from God in hell, and that of the deity of Christ, are inextricably linked. Therefore many of those who deny the deity of Christ, including Jehovah's Witnesses, Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church, Ronald Hubbard's Scientology, and Christian Science, also deny an afterlife of eternal separation from God. Why? God put eternity in our hearts (Eccl. 3:11; Ps. 148:5-6) and so only a payment of infinite worth, something greater than the eternal futures of billions of human beings, could suffice to pay the price for our combined sin. When false teachers dismiss eternal punishment in Hades, they then fail to see the necessity of a Sacrifice of infinite worth.

Jesus Is God: The dramatic contrast in the above chart shows Christ's self-presentation compared to the angels and prophets who present God to the world. These other messengers elevated not themselves, but God. They focused attention not on themselves but on Him. Godly priests, kings, and apostles presented God as their motivating message, of course, and not themselves. Jesus, on the other hand, came speaking about Himself. His most oft used, favorite title for Himself, undoubtedly selected also to communicate His mission, is not the "Son of God", but the "Son of Man". For, eternally He was the Son of God, but being the Son of Man was new to Him and uniquely cherished. God the Son submits Himself to the Father, willingly, not as a sign of a lesser God, but of His greatness. For as He lowers Himself, He is exalted to the central truth of Creation! (See the above chart.) Thus His "I say unto you" is the Scripture's "Thus Saith the Lord"!

Three in the Bible: God exists as three persons in one Godhead, whom we refer to as the Trinity. Thus human beings made in His image also have a triune nature, and the cosmos itself is understood in threes, in the most fantastic ways. Before considering this, first see the Bible's extraordinary use of this number. Christ was three days in the tomb, which Jonah's three days foreshadowed, as did Abraham's three days of thinking that he would sacrifice his son Isaac on that same hill called Golgotha and Mt. Moriah (Gen. 22:14; 2 Chron. 3:1). Israel's three patriarchs are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The priestly tribe of Levi is from Jacob's third child (Gen. 29:34), as Leviticus is the third book of the Bible. And the day the law was given, the sons of Levi killed "about three thousand men" (Ex. 32:28), whereas the day the Spirit was given, "that day about three thousand souls were [saved]" (Acts 2:41; and see 2 Cor. 3:6). The Hebrew Scriptures comprise three sections, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings (Luke 24:44), and God created three archangels. The most noteworthy women are Eve, Sarah, and Mary. The magi brought gold, frankincense and myrrh. Three persons (one being the Son) started their public service at thirty years of age: Joseph (Gen. 41:46), a deliverer of his people; David (2 Sam. 5:4) seated on the messianic throne (2 Sam. 7:12-13); and "Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age" (Luke 3:23). God could have led Esther to fast for two days, or four; and He could have kept Jonah in the whale for one day, or a week, but three days and three nights prefigures God’s plan of salvation for Christ's time in the grave. For Jesus "rose again the third day according to the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:4). And thus, the triune Christian God, the mystery of the Trinity, Three Persons in One God, is the one God whose testimony we can trust (answering both the philosophical problem of the origin of the one and the many, and Euthyphro's Dilemma by Socrates), having imprinted our world and even ourselves with His triune nature.

Threes Everywhere: The number three manifested in Scripture turns the Christian's attention outward to see space existing in three dimensions, height, width, and length, as does time in past, present and future. The electromagnetic force operates in positive, negative, and neutral, and in pigment the three primary colors are red, yellow, and blue whereas in light they are red, green, and blue which three blend into the hues of the rainbow. We human beings on this third planet from the Sun experience matter primarily in three states, solid, liquid, and gas. The strongest shape for building is the triangle. Writers often give three examples and artists group in threes as in interior design, sculpting, and even movie directors, as they have the word trilogy (1, 2, 3) but no word for any other number of films. Photographers use the rule of thirds and the language of DNA uses only three-letter words. Everything reinforces the triune aspect of all of existence, a reflection of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. See more at kgov.com/3.

Tripartite Man: And so we humans are body, soul, and spirit (1 Thes. 5:23). For God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness…" (Gen. 1:26). So mankind is made in God's image and likeness, image referring to our form, and likeness to our essence as sentient, morally-responsible persons. And unlike animals which look to the ground, men and women stand upright with a heavenly gaze.

God's Image: God created a form, that is, an image, for the eternal Son to indwell. The verses Jehovah's Witnesses assume undermine Christ's deity are actually verses describing this aspect of Him at the creation. For the very first thing that God created was this form for His Son to indwell! (See Gen. 1:26 along with Col. 1:15; Rev. 3:14: Heb. 1:3; 5:5; 10:5; 2 Cor. 4:4; John 1:14; Phil. 2:5-6; 1 Tim. 2:5; and Rev. 1:13-18. When a son is "born" isn't the beginning of his existence anymore than when by taking up an image the Son became the "firstborn" of creation, was the beginning of His existence.) And in that image, "He made man" (Gen. 9:6), and not in the image of apes. "So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them (Gen. 1:27).

The Plurality in God: The very first verse of Genesis presents the plurality of God, with Genesis 1:1 using a plural subject and a singular verb, that is, In the beginning gods He created the heavens and the earth. Elohim is the plural of the typical Hebrew word for God, which is El (cherub and seraph for example become plural as cherubim and seraphim, with Elah likely being the dual form, and Elohim being a plurality, in this case, three for the triune God). So, did Moses make a grammatical error in the first sentence of the first book of Scripture, in what has become not only the world's best-selling book, but in the most well-known sentence in the history of the world by using a singular verb with a plural subject? Of course not. For this was intentional. The Hebrew Scriptures in the most solemn texts presents God as a unified plurality. What grammarians refer to as the "royal we" comes from God's references to Himself using the plural: "Let Us make man in Our image," (Gen. 1:26). The solemn Hebrew prayer, called the Shema Yisroel, to the "one God" uses another plurality. For "The Lord our God, the Lord is One (of plurality)" at Deuteronomy 6:4 uses neither of the expected terms, yachad or even bad, words meaning a singularity, but God's Word uses the word echad, which is one in plurality as used by God at the Tower of Babel, "the people are one," and by Joseph "the dreams of Pharaoh are one," and by Moses, "the people answered with one voice," and back again to the beginning of Genesis at the institution of marriage when God says, "and they shall become one flesh." So this foundation prayer to God does not the use the Hebrew words for one, which mean a singularity (which words are never used in the Bible referring to God), but God describes Himself in the Bible using the One of plurality. So the Shema says: the Jehovah (who is the one God) our Elohim (plural) Jehovah is a Plural Unity! And Deuteronomy 6:4 is the central passage to all theology of God. Then the Scriptures go on to teach that the three Persons of the Trinity are God the Father (Isa. 63:16; Mal. 2:10), God the Son (Ps. 2:12; Zech. 12:10 and as in the chart above), and God the Spirit (Gen. 1:2; Isa. 48:16; Isa. 6:3; Rom. 5:5). See also Mat. 28:19; Acts 5:3-4, 9; 2 Cor. 13:14, and Psalm 110:1 with Matthew 22:41-46, and verses that show the personhood of the Spirit including Heb. 10:15-17.

The Mystery in the Godhead: How can one God exist in three persons? Christian theologians have long described this as a mystery, but it is an expected mystery. Virtually everything, deep down, is a mystery. What is light (with its wave-particle duality)? What is life (with modern biology unable to agree on a definition)? What is matter (that it leaves modern physics bewildered)? What is space? What is energy? What is time? What is movement? (Is it a series of discrete stationary states?) How can the Creator bring the universe into existence from nothing? How can your non-physical spirit be attached to your physical body? How can God exist from the beginningless past? How can creatures procreate and bring everlasting beings into existence? In humility we acknowledge that virtually everything in the creation is a deep, almost unfathomable mystery. How much more mysterious would be the God who made us? If Christianity taught that there are three Gods in One God, that would be a contradiction, and by the laws of logic, therefore false. For 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 and each 1 would be 1/3rd of the whole, which is anathema to trinitarian theology. But by analogizing God with math we see that the number line lacks sufficient multidimensionality and points us to the 3-dimensionality of space and an appropriate anaology wherein 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. And likewise, if Christianity taught that there are three Persons in One Person, that also would be false. But Christianity teaches that there are three Persons in One God, and while being a deep mystery (what isn't?), that is no contradiction.

And finally, denial of Christ's deity is a central teaching of many of today's cults, including for example the Jehovah's Witnesses. This denial goes hand-in-glove with the rejection of eternality of hell. Also, not understanding the plurality of the Godhead creates philosophical dilemmas such as the problem of the one and the many. And Socrates' pre-Christian argument against God called Euthyphro's Dilemma is resolved by none of the world's religions except for the Christian Answer to Euthyphro in the eternal corroborating testimony of the three Witnesses of the Trinity.

Bob Enyart's Gospel of John Bible study...
-Bob Enyart, KGOV.com
Pastor, Denver Bible Church






Red herring.



Irrelevant. You're trying to make this about me, and not the evidence.

Maybe you should re-read my OP. it shows the opposite of what you say.
Maybe you missed the only opinion that counts of what a cult is-Thats Gods opinion. It is as follows--A house divided will not stand= 34,000 trinity based religions. They seem to have missed this simple bible milk of Jesus 1 true religion-1 Cor 1:10-Unity of thought( all of Gods 1 truth) no division.

Jesus cleared that false mystery up--John 20:17, Rev 3:12--you see it takes believing Jesus--Why wont you? Are you his follower?
 
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