Evolution

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Yorzhik

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Originally posted by aharvey

It's a work in progress. My first response to Morphy gives you some of what I've found. Reviewing the history of the dispute has been most enlightening. I think it's no accident that most of the current YEC arguments involve things like abiogenesis, information theory, the Big Bang, and the second law of thermodynamics. All of these are irrelevant or at best peripheral to evolutionary theory per se, and all are therefore likely to be outside the areas of expertise of practicing biologists.

Of course, there is also the irreducible complexity class of arguments, which includes the "wow! look how complex cells/genes are!" This entire class of arguments is based on some faulty premises, and, unexpectedly, a healthy dose of appeal to emotion.

In general I have not had good luck getting positive evidence for a young earth creationist view of the world, only arguments against evolution. I have also had little success getting YECs to even provide a logical YEC-based explanation for the few interesting situations I've presented. Brother Willi's post is typical: "it is the way it was meant to be." This may be true, but it's not very useful.

I have also learned that my colleagues are pretty uninformed about the YEC world, even those that work here in the Bible Belt. They tend to be harshly dismissive, but have often never tried to have a reasonable discussion with Creationists. Although I don't get the impression that I've reached many minds here, I do think my level of understanding is far greater than it was last summer.

By the way, it's worth repeating that when I talk about "reaching minds," I don't mean "convert to heathen evolutionism." I take my TOL signature very seriously. If I have a goal besides expanding my own knowledge base, it's that I want people to think more deeply about what they say, what they believe. My goal is not to convert anyone to an Old-earth, evolution-based worldview. My goal is to be able to intelligently discuss, compare, and contrast the assumptions, models, predictions, evidence, and implications of these different world views.

Information theory is foundational to evo, and thus most relevant to current evo theory. I'll admit it isn't important to biologists, but that will come in time. It's math, not biology.

Abiogenesis is used most because it is the biggest hurdle to get over for evo to start. Why evo's claim that abiogenesis is outside of evo theory is an indictment of the theory. But post-protocell arguments are valid against evo, too.

The Big Bang… I don't argue that one, but even other evo-believing scientists dispute the claims of that idea, so I figure I'll wait until they have more solid information on the subject.

The SLoT is a very fundamental principle, and although its effects can easily be seen and explained, the mechanics are very complicated; so lay people can see how it works, and through experience intuit how it will be a difficult for evo to explain away, but they cannot explain the mechanics of it. It's too bad. But we (mankind) will eventually get a theory that will show that not only is going from primitive protocell to a more complex cell an uphill reaction (even more uphill if you talk non-life to life reaction), but the energy claimed to do it will cause more harm than good. I'm a layperson, I can't tell you how. Call it a prediction of YEC.

Irreducible complexity is largely an appeal not to emotion, but more toward common sense. It isn't an emotional appeal to see a watch on a beach and assume it was made by somebody. And the same faulty premise argument can be made for that watch situation; but it won't convince most people – and they will be right, not you. But it isn't a hard science by a longshot, like math. I'll grant you that.

So all the things I mentioned don't prove creation, but they are an argument against evo. I think that's what should be focused on. Even if we don't prove creation, please please please use some common sense and at least say, "Well then, we just don't know how we got here" and leave it at that. Because as science progresses we are getting to the point where evo is becoming not just doubtful, but absurd.

Which brings up Strat's post:

Originally posted by Stratnerd
To me the primary difference between creationists and scientists is epistemology. Creationists believe that revelation via diety to man is a superior episteme. That is, what is written in the people is absolute Truth. All you need to do is visit AIG or CRC and read their statement of faith to see this. Science, on the other hand, believes that inference, though fallible, is a superior episteme. Revelation doesn't play any role since science seeks to be objective in data gathering and interpretation.

Creationists beef with evolution has nothing do with evidence for creation. In fact, evidence is irrelevent to the creationists position since revelation is their source not inference. This is why creationists create and seek conflicts with evolution like information theory and why they have a difficult time creating a comprehensive theory. The other difficultly is that any creationist theory is likely to conflict with the world. Why? Because the world, via inference, looks to be several billion years old and whose inhabitatants appear to have evolved from each other.
The problem is that the trust in the bible does not usually start at whether evo is true or not. There are other sure things, like coherency, historical consistency, and human nature, that are the beginnings to trust in the bible. Then afterward, the bible and science line up on most things. There are some things it doesn't line up on, like radiometric dating. And other things it doesn't explain, like the flood. But these things don't dispute the validity of the bible, but the bible doesn't explain them or we don't understand them yet. Also, what we don't understand is not completely unknowable, but we have conflicting information currently, and we will have to study the situation more to understand.

And again, forget the evidence for creation. At least admit that evo is scientifically impossible. Don't agree to the illogical just because of some internal need to explain how we got here. Just be content that we exist, realize that evo doesn't affect your life and move on.

Originally posted by Morphy
My point is: creationists should accept evolution as consistent theory. Otherwise they discourage many people from Christianity. If you consider evolution to be a false theory I hope you have something better to offer instead. Otherwise it is you who will be considered as morons. And I don't want people to think Christians are morons... Every creationist should put it in mind. In medieval ages Catholic church persecuted those who fought the Earth was a globe. Fortunately popes have admitted they were wrong. Hadn't they done it Catholic church would be extinct by now.
My point is that not only is evo not consistent, it isn't even reasonable.

And, no, nothing else better needs to replace it to understand that evo isn't a valid scientific theory.

And one more thing, you claim the Catholic Church argued for a flat earth in medieval times. What are you talking about? Can you point me to some info that backs up that claim?

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Edited to attribute quote to correct person
 
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Morphy

New member
Originally posted by Yorzhik

Abiogenesis is used most because it is the biggest hurdle to get over for evo to start. Why evo's claim that abiogenesis is outside of evo theory is an indictment of the theory.
Wait untill we discover simple life forms outside the Earth (maybe on Europa - a moon of Jupiter).

Originally posted by Yorzhik
But post-protocell arguments are valid against evo, too.

I don't know any tenable... All I've gathered so far can be refuted very easily.

Originally posted by Yorzhik
The Big Bang… I don't argue that one, but even other evo-believing scientists dispute the claims of that idea, so I figure I'll wait until they have more solid information on the subject.

I don't think laymen should restrain from disputing such questions. Although I was very intrested in cosmology when I was in secondary school I don't think I can hold such debate. But the theory seems very consistant and comprehensive. The strongest evidence against was that if there really had been bing bang there should have been a background radiation in the entire universe. After a few years we found it, since that time no astrophysicist dares to criticize it for the evidence in favor are overwhelming.


Originally posted by Yorzhik
The SLoT is a very fundamental principle, and although its effects can easily be seen and explained, the mechanics are very complicated; so lay people can see how it works, and through experience intuit how it will be a difficult for evo to explain away, but they cannot explain the mechanics of it. It's too bad. But we (mankind) will eventually get a theory that will show that not only is going from primitive protocell to a more complex cell an uphill reaction (even more uphill if you talk non-life to life reaction), but the energy claimed to do it will cause more harm than good. I'm a layperson, I can't tell you how. Call it a prediction of YEC.

I don't think you undrestand the molecural principles of genetics and that is why you quote false theories...

Originally posted by Yorzhik
So all the things I mentioned don't prove creation, but they are an argument against evo.

Which one??? Just give me one good argument against evolution.
Are genes able to change spontaneusly? Are. Can these changes be passed to posterity? Can. Does enviroment promote some changes? It does. What else do you need to prove evolution takes place???

Originally posted by Yorzhik
I think that's what should be focused on. Even if we don't prove creation, please please please use some common sense and at least say, "Well then, we just don't know how we got here" and leave it at that. Because as science progresses we are getting to the point where evo is becoming not just doubtful, but absurd.

You know, actually, the more I learn about sociology, biology and genetics the more I am convinced that evolution is one of the best proved theories ever...

Originally posted by Yorzhik

And again, forget the evidence for creation. At least admit that evo is scientifically impossible. Don't agree to the illogical just because of some internal need to explain how we got here. Just be content that we exist, realize that evo doesn't affect your life and move on.

Where did you get that???
I'm telling you: just give me one (one is enough!!!) tenable, consisted argument agains evolution. One is enough.

Originally posted by Yorzhik
My point is that not only is evo not consistent, it isn't even reasonable.

Quite otherwise.

Originally posted by Yorzhik
And one more thing, you claim the Catholic Church argued for a flat earth in medieval times. What are you talking about? Can you point me to some info that backs up that claim?

Catholic church official 'scientific doctrines' were different and sometimes really strange. Not only did they harm science severly but also condemned many people to death - like for example Galileo Galilei. Fortunately they don't repeat these mistakes anymore and catholic church don't oppose science anymore.
 

aharvey

New member
Originally posted by Yorzhik

Information theory is foundational to evo, and thus most relevant to current evo theory. I'll admit it isn't important to biologists, but that will come in time. It's math, not biology.
Hey, there's a lot of math in biology, and we can delve pretty deeply into it when we need to, as I did when you first brought this up. As we've discussed before, the information theory arguments against evolution confound two very different versions of information theory, and the nature of the arguments depend entirely on using assumptions and definitions from one version in the context of the other, even thought these assumptions and definitions are specifically disallowed in the second.

Originally posted by Yorzhik

Abiogenesis is used most because it is the biggest hurdle to get over for evo to start. Why evo's claim that abiogenesis is outside of evo theory is an indictment of the theory.
As I've stated more than once, it's hardly surprising that we don't know very much about something that happened, once, at least 4.5 billion years ago, once, on a microscopic scale, once, somewhere on the 5.1 X 10^14 square meters of the planet's surface (actually, you'd want a volume estimate here, but I don't have one), once.

That's why I haven't been able to generate a lot of interest in abiogensis; it's something of a fool's errand, and even if someone figured it out, I don't see how that would change the way we do much of anything. YECs know this as well as scientists do, and that's why they attack it with such zeal. Nonetheless, there is plenty of evidence that all life that we know of today descended from a single common ancestor, even if we don't know anything about that common ancestor, or its ancestors. If we find life that is not DNA-based, for example, then we might have to reassess that view.

In any case, I've never heard you or anyone else here make the same argument against, say, the theory of gravity. I've asked that several times, with no answer that I can recall.

Originally posted by Yorzhik

But post-protocell arguments are valid against evo, too.
Nice of you to slip that one in here. Can you be more specific?

Originally posted by Yorzhik

The SLoT is a very fundamental principle, and although its effects can easily be seen and explained, the mechanics are very complicated; so lay people can see how it works, and through experience intuit how it will be a difficult for evo to explain away, but they cannot explain the mechanics of it. It's too bad. But we (mankind) will eventually get a theory that will show that not only is going from primitive protocell to a more complex cell an uphill reaction (even more uphill if you talk non-life to life reaction), but the energy claimed to do it will cause more harm than good. I'm a layperson, I can't tell you how. Call it a prediction of YEC.
Well, usually predictions follow from hypotheses, which follow from theory, so this can't really be a prediction of YEC, at least given that the underlying theory doesn't exist yet. However, if you can explain how this follows from YEC, I'm most interested.

Originally posted by Yorzhik

Irreducible complexity is largely an appeal not to emotion, but more toward common sense. It isn't an emotional appeal to see a watch on a beach and assume it was made by somebody. And the same faulty premise argument can be made for that watch situation; but it won't convince most people – and they will be right, not you. But it isn't a hard science by a longshot, like math. I'll grant you that.
I wasn't really talking about Paley's watch, but irreducible complexity, the argument that complex structures can't have evolved because we can't do single-step reverse-engineering of complex organisms. At least somewhat different set of faulty premises, I think, and not so much common sense in IC. But I do agree that the strength and weakness of the Paley's watch argument is its total reliance on "common sense." My introduction to ID came when a guy named Dr. Brian Miller (I think; it's been a couple of years) came to campus and gave a talk about it. When I asked him how you actually ascribe a design (in the ID sense of the word) component to a complex structure, he said, and I quote, "Well, you know it when you see it." When I pressed him on this, he said that there were some very smart people working on this and he was hopeful they'd have an answer soon...

Originally posted by Yorzhik

So all the things I mentioned don't prove creation, but they are an argument against evo. I think that's what should be focused on.
I can see why you would feel this way, because at the moment YEC lacks a theoretical basis, a robust set of predictions, and positive supportive evidence of any kind.

Originally posted by Yorzhik

Even if we don't prove creation, please please please use some common sense and at least say, "Well then, we just don't know how we got here" and leave it at that.
Hmm. Do you mean "how we (i.e., living organisms) got here" or "how we (i.e., humans) got here"? Assuming you mean the former, I've tried that, and it doesn't seem to satisfy y'all. In fact, read a few lines up. Aren't you specifically arguing in this same post that evolution needs to be able to show how life started?

Originally posted by Yorzhik

Because as science progresses we are getting to the point where evo is becoming not just doubtful, but absurd.

Which brings me back to my very first post to TOL. Tell me, when you say "evo," are you talking about population level changes in genotype frequencies over time, speciation, or the transition from one created kind to another? Or something else?
 

Jukia

New member
Can you provide a simple straight answer? Am I to assume that your position is that the Jewish calendar started after the Garden of Eden therefore Adam & Eve were evicted from the Garden 5760 years ago?
 

brother Willi

New member
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:2
The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Genesis 1:3
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

Genesis 1:4
God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
untill darknes and light got seperated, what was a day?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Genesis 1:5
God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
 
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brother Willi

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Originally posted by Jukia

Can you provide a simple straight answer? Am I to assume that your position is that the Jewish calendar started after the Garden of Eden therefore Adam & Eve were evicted from the Garden 5760 years ago?
thats my understanding.

what was the Garden?
 

Jukia

New member
But you do not so despite your comments about looking in the Bible, that is pretty useless for this purpose. Thanks anyway
 

brother Willi

New member
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:2
The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Genesis 1:3
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

Genesis 1:4
God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
untill light from the darkness got seperated, what was a day?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Genesis 1:5
God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
 

niceval4u

New member
I have got my dictionary out 'The Oxford Reference Dictionary' to give the correct definition of the word 'bacteria'. Quote:
Bacterium; any of several types of microscopic or ultramicroscopic single-celled organisms very widely distributed in nature, not only in soil, water, and air, but also on or in many parts of the tissues of plants and animals. Traditionally included in the plant kingdom they are now unsually grouped as members of the Protista. Bacteria form one of the main bioogically interdependent groups of organisms in vrtue of chemical changes which many of them bring about (e.g. all forms of DECAY (corruption).
I think this answers your question.
As far as creationists and evolution they do not mix. Evolution is mans theory, and creation is God's deeds.
 
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