God must engage in un-ideal actions

csuguy

Well-known member
When people see a grown man "wrestling" with his tiny child and see the tiny child climb on his chest as if he is winning their wrestling match, most adults can correctly figure that the grown man is playfully allowing the child to take the upper hand. But there are a few like you, I suppose...eventually, as you mature, most of you catch on that not everything should be taken at face value.

I suppose you think that if God “struggled” when wrestling with Jacob, that He wouldn't stand much of a chance against a modern defensive tackle?

I'm not sure what these comments have to do with anything other than to attempt to insult me. Also, it was an angel who wrestled with Jacob, so you know.

It is a little bewildering that you claim to be so deeply offended by the Calvinist teachings about God, yet you take Exod32 at face value that the God of Israel, who declares the end from the beginning and accomplishes all that He intends (Isa46:10; Eph1:11) is really more like a hot-headed adolescent who desperately needs humans like Moses to help Him calm down and think about the potential consequences of His actions?

First off, offended is the wrong word. I find Calvinism deeply in error, yes, but I don't bare any personal grudges against it.

Secondly, Exodus is hardly the only location in scripture that demonstrates God's emotional side. To say that God becoming angry or sad over his creation is akin to being a "hot-headed adolescent" is a rather blasphemous thing to say, and quite ridiculous. This is a good demonstration of the kind of erroneous mindset that Calvinism leads to.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Believing that God has authority to judge is not the same as believing that He is in control.

You seem to have a habit of putting words in other people's mouth. I never asserted that God having authority means no more than the ability to Judge. God has a master plan that he is carrying out. He has the ability to intercede where he so decides to bring this about.

However, contrary to the Calvinists, I don't believe that in order for God to do this he needs to control every little thing - depriving us of free will. No, the God of scriptures is adaptable to our free will decisions. Hence Israel got a King because they demanded it, contrary to how God had established things. Hence Israel ended up with the Levitical Priesthood instead of the Priesthood that God original prescribed, where the first born son of all families were to be priests. Hence God has been surprised, or been angered and saddened by the deeds of man.

Whose definition of love are we using? Yours? The guy who thinks God would not be loving to create someone knowing that they will end up in Hell? The guy who thinks God would not be loving to judge people for failing to perfectly keep the law, as no one is perfect? The guy who thinks God would not be loving to create any sort of Hell, as annihilation seems nicer?

Calvinists believe that the Bible sets the only valid definition of “love.” And that definition won't necessarily square with your natural expectations or humanistic definition of love.

I've already discussed this topic in this thread a bit already, so you can see those posts for more detail. Based upon the scriptures, to love is to care for others, and act accordingly. The greatest act of love is to give your life for others. The two greatest commandments, upon which all others are rooted, is to love God and love your fellow man.

1 Cor 13:4-7 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.​

There are different meanings for God's will. Take some of the verses I posted:

Samson was disobeying God's will to marry only within God's people to avoid being led astray by foreign gods. He was disobeying his parents and acting lustfully and unwisely. His parents were right from a moral standpoint – which is why the Spirit moves the author to clarify that God is still accomplishing what He intends.

Isa53:10Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him... It doesn't mean it made God giddy to ordain the suffering of His Son, but it does mean that it was His will for the story to play out that way. The Jewish leadership was responsible to obey God's commands to judge justly and condemn perjury that convicts the innocent – that is God's moral will. But He intended that His Son be numbered among the transgressors and put to death by wicked men – that was His sovereign will.

I agree very much with the notion that God is able to work around our sins to bring about good. However, that is not to say that we have reached the best/ideal outcome. For instance: the Jews fell away several times in scripture. Despite being sent prophet after prophet, they continued on in sin - to the point that God allowed invading nations to destroy most of them. He was able to use these opportunities to redeem a portion of the people - but how much better would it have been if people had chosen to listen and repent when they had the chance? God takes no pleasure in people's destruction, and desires all to be saved.



You confuse commands that demand a responsibility to obey with the correspondent ability to obey:

Deutoronomy 30 states that we have the ability and understanding to follow the commandments.

Good choice to start your quote that far into the chapter, though. Had you started with v1, it would have been clear that their future disobedience (being driven from a land which they had yet to enter) was a stone-cold lock.

Deut30:1 “Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God drives you...

Am I supposed to quote the entire chapter? Don't be silly - that quote is getting on the long side as it is. As for v1, it doesn't change or challenge what is stated later on in the chapter - that we are fully capable of keeping the commandments and choosing to do what is right. It is our choice.

Where did you get this gem? I can't help but notice there's not a scripture reference. “Chicken Soup for the Soul” or some similar authority?

There will be no sin in Heaven (1 John 3:2; Rev21:27). There will be love in Heaven. You might need to pull another fortune cookie off the buffet...

You simply need to consider the nature of love to understand this. Love cannot be forced, nor would it have any merit independent of freewill. That would be like programming your computer to tell you "I love you" constantly. It's empty.

This is why God tests people - to put them in a position where they must choose for good or for evil. Through such hardships, he refines us. In revelations 3:16 he rebukes one of the churches for being lukewarm, and threatens to spit them out of his mouth because of it.

Calvinists have been addressing this stuff for hundreds of years, so why not? Here is some more:

My intent is to have a conversation. If you are here to simply state your view and leave, then be off with you.

If the Bible taught that man has free will, Calvinists would happily give up that systematic view of the Bible and take all the credit that would be rightfully ours. But the Bible speaks of a God who has to draw His people to Himself because no one seeks Him and everyone turns and goes their own way. God's choice is ultimately foundational:

The scriptures are full of reference to freewill, like Deut 30. You simply ignore these scriptures.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
It used to be known as simply the “ungodly” view, but “openness” makes for better marketing, I guess. It does put you in some problematic company from a scriptural standpoint.

According to God in his Bible, when did he know that Abraham would not with hold his son?
 
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